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Post by snoggle on Sept 5, 2016 9:36:04 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Sept 5, 2016 11:46:40 GMT
A few little interesting snippets in the Mayor's Press Release
That last highlighted point is very interesting and a step change towards multi-modal single through fares. I suspect there will be multiple journey time limits when using the tube to reflect the journey times and distance. Obviously bus to tram and tram to bus interchange exists today but this will represents an expansion of the facility. Will be interesting to see how it works at Wimbledon with the dreaded SWT gatelines!!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 12:26:27 GMT
A few little interesting snippets in the Mayor's Press Release That last highlighted point is very interesting and a step change towards multi-modal single through fares. I suspect there will be multiple journey time limits when using the tube to reflect the journey times and distance. Obviously bus to tram and tram to bus interchange exists today but this will represents an expansion of the facility. Will be interesting to see how it works at Wimbledon with the dreaded SWT gatelines!!! They're being clever, using relatively short first half journey examples to introduce the 'simplicity' of the hopper fare but what about someone who NEEDS to travel long distance to start (eg a journey on the 81 from Slough and then a connection at Hounslow West to the H91 for Hammersmith... in theory 47 minutes but what about traffic and waiting time on the connection?) Even on a shorter journey people might be penalised by ever common London traffic jams. I can see bus drivers being hassled and the Oyster helpline on meltdown! With regard to that last paragraph, one assumes the one-hour rule no longer applies if using the tube/train. Isn't that introducing a risk of 'breaking journeys'? (Without a time limit, one could take a bus and tube, do whatever they like for the day and take another bus without paying a penny!)
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Post by snoggle on Sept 5, 2016 13:30:16 GMT
A few little interesting snippets in the Mayor's Press Release That last highlighted point is very interesting and a step change towards multi-modal single through fares. I suspect there will be multiple journey time limits when using the tube to reflect the journey times and distance. Obviously bus to tram and tram to bus interchange exists today but this will represents an expansion of the facility. Will be interesting to see how it works at Wimbledon with the dreaded SWT gatelines!!! They're being clever, using relatively short first half journey examples to introduce the 'simplicity' of the hopper fare but what about someone who NEEDS to travel long distance to start (eg a journey on the 81 from Slough and then a connection at Hounslow West to the H91 for Hammersmith... in theory 47 minutes but what about traffic and waiting time on the connection?) Even on a shorter journey people might be penalised by ever common London traffic jams. I can see bus drivers being hassled and the Oyster helpline on meltdown! With regard to that last paragraph, one assumes the one-hour rule no longer applies if using the tube/train. Isn't that introducing a risk of 'breaking journeys'? (Without a time limit, one could take a bus and tube, do whatever they like for the day and take another bus without paying a penny!) To be fair we have discussed the issue of long journey times before. I have a sneaking suspicion that the real system parameter will remain 70 minutes as it is now for Tram to Bus interchange at New Addington and tram to tram interchange more generally (yes you are required to touch in a second time when changing trams). The publicised limit for the Hopper is 60 to presumably make it easier for people to understand but having a hidden 10 minute extra time period provides some flexibility. The thing I found odd about the 133/109 example is that logically you'd change at different places depending on the direction - Brixton going south and Streatham St Leonards going north. The 16/18 example is different because there's no overlap and only one logical interchange point. You're likely to be well within an hour going north but it'll be touch and go coming south! Although longer it may be cheaper and less risky to change to the 52 near Kensal Rise coming south. People using bank cards have no basis to hassle bus drivers as their charges are calculated off line and drivers have no idea what will be charged. Oyster is obviously different but again drivers can't fix any issues on the spot. The problem with any time limit is that there will always be circumstances in which people can fall the wrong side of it. Road works, accidents, diversions, planned events will all throw journey times into question and the system simply can't cope with all that variation in real time. I'd also argue it doesn't need to - the "tough" message is that sometimes things go wrong and you might end up having to pay a second fare even if every other journey you take runs like clockwork. It's called "life" - bad things sometimes happen. Obviously we shall see what rules TfL introduce in 2018 but the system already has the concept of max journey times for rail / tube journeys and they vary by day of the week and time of day for any given number of zones. This is recognition of lower frequencies, especially on NR, on many routes on Sundays. It would not be diffcult for TfL to use that same concept and apply it to an overall journey involving buses or trams or both either end of a rail / tube journey to help apply a Hopper cap. It'll be easy to do once all charging is done off line in the "black box" as it will be from 2018 when all the Oyster cards have been swapped over to a new card type (which is what I expect TfL will do. Shame they closed all those LU ticket offices!).
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 5, 2016 13:44:39 GMT
To be fair we have discussed the issue of long journey times before. I have a sneaking suspicion that the real system parameter will remain 70 minutes as it is now for Tram to Bus interchange at New Addington and tram to tram interchange more generally (yes you are required to touch in a second time when changing trams). The publicised limit for the Hopper is 60 to presumably make it easier for people to understand but having a hidden 10 minute extra time period provides some flexibility. The thing I found odd about the 133/109 example is that logically you'd change at different places depending on the direction - Brixton going south and Streatham St Leonards going north. The 16/18 example is different because there's no overlap and only one logical interchange point. You're likely to be well within an hour going north but it'll be touch and go coming south! Although longer it may be cheaper and less risky to change to the 52 near Kensal Rise coming south. People using bank cards have no basis to hassle bus drivers as their charges are calculated off line and drivers have no idea what will be charged. Oyster is obviously different but again drivers can't fix any issues on the spot. The problem with any time limit is that there will always be circumstances in which people can fall the wrong side of it. Road works, accidents, diversions, planned events will all throw journey times into question and the system simply can't cope with all that variation in real time. I'd also argue it doesn't need to - the "tough" message is that sometimes things go wrong and you might end up having to pay a second fare even if every other journey you take runs like clockwork. It's called "life" - bad things sometimes happen. Obviously we shall see what rules TfL introduce in 2018 but the system already has the concept of max journey times for rail / tube journeys and they vary by day of the week and time of day for any given number of zones. This is recognition of lower frequencies, especially on NR, on many routes on Sundays. It would not be diffcult for TfL to use that same concept and apply it to an overall journey involving buses or trams or both either end of a rail / tube journey to help apply a Hopper cap. It'll be easy to do once all charging is done off line in the "black box" as it will be from 2018 when all the Oyster cards have been swapped over to a new card type (which is what I expect TfL will do. Shame they closed all those LU ticket offices!). Are you really supposed to tap in again when changing trams? I have never done it. So how is you original tap in associated to your original tram? I have never been questioned by revenue.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 5, 2016 13:50:44 GMT
Are you really supposed to tap in again when changing trams? I have never done it. So how is you original tap in associated to your original tram? I have never been questioned by revenue. Yes you are - it's in the TfL Staff Guides to Ticketing and Fares which I've obtained via FOI for the last several years. I expect the ticketing logic works on a simple basis of checking journey history and if a second touch is within 70 mins of the first one then no fare is charged. That's a very simple thing to do. I can't explain why there isn't more rigid enforcement or publicity about this but it is in the ticketing rules for the system.
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 5, 2016 13:57:26 GMT
Are you really supposed to tap in again when changing trams? I have never done it. So how is you original tap in associated to your original tram? I have never been questioned by revenue. Yes you are - it's in the TfL Staff Guides to Ticketing and Fares which I've obtained via FOI for the last several years. I expect the ticketing logic works on a simple basis of checking journey history and if a second touch is within 70 mins of the first one then no fare is charged. That's a very simple thing to do. I can't explain why there isn't more rigid enforcement or publicity about this but it is in the ticketing rules for the system. Fair enough ... but having used the system for years, thought you just had to tap into the network in a similar way as you do on the tube. I have never heard this before so am a little surprised. They obviously have no logic to check whether you have changed tram, as I havr never touched in a 2nd time, nor heard of anyone getting caught out by this.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 5, 2016 15:35:13 GMT
Yes you are - it's in the TfL Staff Guides to Ticketing and Fares which I've obtained via FOI for the last several years. I expect the ticketing logic works on a simple basis of checking journey history and if a second touch is within 70 mins of the first one then no fare is charged. That's a very simple thing to do. I can't explain why there isn't more rigid enforcement or publicity about this but it is in the ticketing rules for the system. Fair enough ... but having used the system for years, thought you just had to tap into the network in a similar way as you do on the tube. I have never heard this before so am a little surprised. They obviously have no logic to check whether you have changed tram, as I havr never touched in a 2nd time, nor heard of anyone getting caught out by this. Not sure you can conclude there is "no logic to check this". I would expect they can check it but, for whatever reason, choose not to apply any sanction for tram to tram validation. I would expect the card readers that are used can check full journey history because there will be people whose tram journey is charged at zero pence if they started their trip on an advertised "feeder bus" route at New Addington. The bus fare also covers a tram journey if the interchange is achieved in the right time period. I assume plenty of people do make this connection using PAYG so there must be a way to verify the journey and charging history. Ditto for revenue inspectors checking bus passengers on the feeder route where their fare may be zero if they started on Tramlink and then interchanged to a bus. With the Hopper scheme there are going to be vastly more people using bus and tram interchange with zero fare on the second leg as all bus routes in Croydon (and elsewhere) that connect with the tram come into the scope of the scheme. There is, however, a complication at Wimbledon because Tramlink is inside the SWT gateline. From the Mayor's press release.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 5, 2016 19:11:20 GMT
To be fair we have discussed the issue of long journey times before. I have a sneaking suspicion that the real system parameter will remain 70 minutes as it is now for Tram to Bus interchange at New Addington and tram to tram interchange more generally (yes you are required to touch in a second time when changing trams). The publicised limit for the Hopper is 60 to presumably make it easier for people to understand but having a hidden 10 minute extra time period provides some flexibility. The thing I found odd about the 133/109 example is that logically you'd change at different places depending on the direction - Brixton going south and Streatham St Leonards going north. The 16/18 example is different because there's no overlap and only one logical interchange point. You're likely to be well within an hour going north but it'll be touch and go coming south! Although longer it may be cheaper and less risky to change to the 52 near Kensal Rise coming south. People using bank cards have no basis to hassle bus drivers as their charges are calculated off line and drivers have no idea what will be charged. Oyster is obviously different but again drivers can't fix any issues on the spot. The problem with any time limit is that there will always be circumstances in which people can fall the wrong side of it. Road works, accidents, diversions, planned events will all throw journey times into question and the system simply can't cope with all that variation in real time. I'd also argue it doesn't need to - the "tough" message is that sometimes things go wrong and you might end up having to pay a second fare even if every other journey you take runs like clockwork. It's called "life" - bad things sometimes happen. Obviously we shall see what rules TfL introduce in 2018 but the system already has the concept of max journey times for rail / tube journeys and they vary by day of the week and time of day for any given number of zones. This is recognition of lower frequencies, especially on NR, on many routes on Sundays. It would not be diffcult for TfL to use that same concept and apply it to an overall journey involving buses or trams or both either end of a rail / tube journey to help apply a Hopper cap. It'll be easy to do once all charging is done off line in the "black box" as it will be from 2018 when all the Oyster cards have been swapped over to a new card type (which is what I expect TfL will do. Shame they closed all those LU ticket offices!). Are you really supposed to tap in again when changing trams? I have never done it. So how is you original tap in associated to your original tram? I have never been questioned by revenue. Naughty naughty lol. Seriously though, having used the Tramlink a lot in the past, I always thought it was a given that you didn't need to tap again to switch trams especially as I never saw anyone else doing the same. I guess you learn something new everyday.
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Post by sid on Sept 5, 2016 19:36:32 GMT
Are you really supposed to tap in again when changing trams? I have never done it. So how is you original tap in associated to your original tram? I have never been questioned by revenue. Naughty naughty lol. Seriously though, having used the Tramlink a lot in the past, I always thought it was a given that you didn't need to tap again to switch trams especially as I never saw anyone else doing the same. I guess you learn something new everyday. And I'm another fairly regular user of Tramlink totally unaware of this rule!
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Post by snoggle on Sept 5, 2016 22:37:17 GMT
Naughty naughty lol. Seriously though, having used the Tramlink a lot in the past, I always thought it was a given that you didn't need to tap again to switch trams especially as I never saw anyone else doing the same. I guess you learn something new everyday. And I'm another fairly regular user of Tramlink totally unaware of this rule! To be fair I have not said anyone should have been aware. If TfL, Tramlink or First Tram Operations don't make a big song and dance about it then why should they? Anyway here's the direct text from the TfL Staff Guide.
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 6, 2016 6:21:47 GMT
I dont get the benefit of the tube interchange between your two or more bus journeys. it sounds like its beneficial but I dont know how. You still have to pay for the tube journey, you might as well take two or more buses especially if this hopper system benefits those on low incomes, why would they use the tube. If you did use the tube, then your likely to be further away from where you started your journey, and therefore you probably need a tube to get back, and then your close to the daily cap anyway. Throwing in the tube aspect will complicate things and few would understand and therefore benefit.
Can anyone think of an example journey(s) someone would benefit? I genuinely cannot.
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 6, 2016 6:26:21 GMT
They're being clever, using relatively short first half journey examples to introduce the 'simplicity' of the hopper fare but what about someone who NEEDS to travel long distance to start (eg a journey on the 81 from Slough and then a connection at Hounslow West to the H91 for Hammersmith... in theory 47 minutes but what about traffic and waiting time on the connection?) Even on a shorter journey people might be penalised by ever common London traffic jams. I can see bus drivers being hassled and the Oyster helpline on meltdown! With regard to that last paragraph, one assumes the one-hour rule no longer applies if using the tube/train. Isn't that introducing a risk of 'breaking journeys'? (Without a time limit, one could take a bus and tube, do whatever they like for the day and take another bus without paying a penny!) To be fair we have discussed the issue of long journey times before. I have a sneaking suspicion that the real system parameter will remain 70 minutes as it is now for Tram to Bus interchange at New Addington and tram to tram interchange more generally (yes you are required to touch in a second time when changing trams). The publicised limit for the Hopper is 60 to presumably make it easier for people to understand but having a hidden 10 minute extra time period provides some flexibility. The thing I found odd about the 133/109 example is that logically you'd change at different places depending on the direction - Brixton going south and Streatham St Leonards going north. The 16/18 example is different because there's no overlap and only one logical interchange point. You're likely to be well within an hour going north but it'll be touch and go coming south! Although longer it may be cheaper and less risky to change to the 52 near Kensal Rise coming south. People using bank cards have no basis to hassle bus drivers as their charges are calculated off line and drivers have no idea what will be charged. Oyster is obviously different but again drivers can't fix any issues on the spot. The problem with any time limit is that there will always be circumstances in which people can fall the wrong side of it. Road works, accidents, diversions, planned events will all throw journey times into question and the system simply can't cope with all that variation in real time. I'd also argue it doesn't need to - the "tough" message is that sometimes things go wrong and you might end up having to pay a second fare even if every other journey you take runs like clockwork. It's called "life" - bad things sometimes happen. Obviously we shall see what rules TfL introduce in 2018 but the system already has the concept of max journey times for rail / tube journeys and they vary by day of the week and time of day for any given number of zones. This is recognition of lower frequencies, especially on NR, on many routes on Sundays. It would not be diffcult for TfL to use that same concept and apply it to an overall journey involving buses or trams or both either end of a rail / tube journey to help apply a Hopper cap. It'll be easy to do once all charging is done off line in the "black box" as it will be from 2018 when all the Oyster cards have been swapped over to a new card type (which is what I expect TfL will do. Shame they closed all those LU ticket offices!). There probably will be a hidden time flexibility. I know there definitely is one on the bike hire, as twice I used the bike for 31 and 32 minutes respectively and did not get charged.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 6, 2016 9:48:51 GMT
I dont get the benefit of the tube interchange between your two or more bus journeys. it sounds like its beneficial but I dont know how. You still have to pay for the tube journey, you might as well take two or more buses especially if this hopper system benefits those on low incomes, why would they use the tube. If you did use the tube, then your likely to be further away from where you started your journey, and therefore you probably need a tube to get back, and then your close to the daily cap anyway. Throwing in the tube aspect will complicate things and few would understand and therefore benefit. Can anyone think of an example journey(s) someone would benefit? I genuinely cannot. I can think of several. Yardley Lane to London Bridge - 379 bus, Overground to Liv St, 47 bus to Lon Bdge. You save £1.50. Chateau Snoggle to Highgate Village - 123 bus, Overground to Upper Holloway, 271 bus. You save £1.50. Hatch End to Feltham - H14 bus, Met line to Uxbridge, A10 bus to Heathrow, 285 bus to Feltham. You save £3.00. (This is on the basis that in 2018 you get unlimited bus changes within an hour and that there will be a larger journey time (JT) allowance if you include a rail element. If the JT allowance was, say, 90 mins for this trip then it's just about feasible, if the connections work, to get a double discount at the SW end of the trip). Maswell Park to Roehampton - H22 bus, SWT Whitton to Putney, 85 or 430 bus to Roehampton. You save £1.50. Pollards Hill to Honor Oak - 60 bus, Southern to Tulse Hill, P13 bus to Honor Oak. You save £1.50. ( I'll stop ) There are tens of thousands of examples where the rail component is important but you need buses at either end of the trip. I agree that in some (many?) cases a cap might in kick if you make a return. However the last few examples it wouldn't happen because you don't have non Z1 caps anymore. You'd have a cap of something like £12 or so to reach if using the tube out in Zone 6 because all caps include Z1 these days (stupid policy but there you go). I think this new arrangement will be more beneficial for people in outer areas where they can take a train, DLR or tube part way on their trip. If they get buses either end then the Hopper fare charging will save money for people. It's less likely to do so when people are making trips into or across Zone 1 where reaching a cap for return trips is much more likely (as you said).
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Post by ibus246 on Sept 6, 2016 11:53:06 GMT
To be fair we have discussed the issue of long journey times before. I have a sneaking suspicion that the real system parameter will remain 70 minutes as it is now for Tram to Bus interchange at New Addington and tram to tram interchange more generally (yes you are required to touch in a second time when changing trams). The publicised limit for the Hopper is 60 to presumably make it easier for people to understand but having a hidden 10 minute extra time period provides some flexibility. The thing I found odd about the 133/109 example is that logically you'd change at different places depending on the direction - Brixton going south and Streatham St Leonards going north. The 16/18 example is different because there's no overlap and only one logical interchange point. You're likely to be well within an hour going north but it'll be touch and go coming south! Although longer it may be cheaper and less risky to change to the 52 near Kensal Rise coming south. People using bank cards have no basis to hassle bus drivers as their charges are calculated off line and drivers have no idea what will be charged. Oyster is obviously different but again drivers can't fix any issues on the spot. The problem with any time limit is that there will always be circumstances in which people can fall the wrong side of it. Road works, accidents, diversions, planned events will all throw journey times into question and the system simply can't cope with all that variation in real time. I'd also argue it doesn't need to - the "tough" message is that sometimes things go wrong and you might end up having to pay a second fare even if every other journey you take runs like clockwork. It's called "life" - bad things sometimes happen. Obviously we shall see what rules TfL introduce in 2018 but the system already has the concept of max journey times for rail / tube journeys and they vary by day of the week and time of day for any given number of zones. This is recognition of lower frequencies, especially on NR, on many routes on Sundays. It would not be diffcult for TfL to use that same concept and apply it to an overall journey involving buses or trams or both either end of a rail / tube journey to help apply a Hopper cap. It'll be easy to do once all charging is done off line in the "black box" as it will be from 2018 when all the Oyster cards have been swapped over to a new card type (which is what I expect TfL will do. Shame they closed all those LU ticket offices!). There probably will be a hidden time flexibility. I know there definitely is one on the bike hire, as twice I used the bike for 31 and 32 minutes respectively and did not get charged. I beg to differ. At the end of trips I always print out a journey record. One time I was 47 seconds over and was charged the £2. I have several others examples of being a minute or so over and still being charged. Do you have any documentation saying that there is a "buffer"?
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