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Post by planesandtrains on Jan 2, 2018 0:35:50 GMT
Unlimited hopper ticket for bus and tram journeys starts later this month (Jan 2018). What is not mentioned is whether the hopper discount will apply to a second bus taken after a tube / rail journey. This was supposed to be part of the same functionality but isn't mentioned. I assume the full Mayoral press release will be published later today once people are in their offices. www.mayorwatch.co.uk/sadiq-confirms-unlimited-hopper-bus-fare-is-coming-this-month/Really, how is this going to work financially , it makes no sense. 1.50 an hour for as many buses as you like? 2014, year of the bus, 2018, year of the cuts. All because of this reckless political play. I were rather things such as cross border travel get sorted than this fantasy idea that TFL are going to be able to maintain the current service when the value for money is increasing+the price staying the same.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 2, 2018 9:29:19 GMT
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Post by busman on Jan 2, 2018 12:14:41 GMT
Unlimited hopper ticket for bus and tram journeys starts later this month (Jan 2018). What is not mentioned is whether the hopper discount will apply to a second bus taken after a tube / rail journey. This was supposed to be part of the same functionality but isn't mentioned. I assume the full Mayoral press release will be published later today once people are in their offices. www.mayorwatch.co.uk/sadiq-confirms-unlimited-hopper-bus-fare-is-coming-this-month/Wow. Just. Wow. The great irony is that many of the public who support this policy are the same people who moan when services are cut. A short bus trip into town currently costs £1.50 for a return with the hopper fare. You have to go back to 2004 to get a bus fare so cheap (70p single, Oyster). Now with the unlimited rides policy, how far back does one have to go to find a fare so cheap? The unlimited trip change makes no economic sense and smacks of political ideology. Let’s play a game. Using the new unlimited Hopper fare, how far can you go by bus for £1.50? My trip: Weekday evening 607 from Ealing Broadway(depart 19:58) to Hayes Grapes. 140 to Heathrow (depart 20:25). X26 to West Croydon (depart 20:55). Assuming the 607 and X26 depart on time and leaving a few minutes for connections to the 140 and X26. Total mileage travelled: approx 33.4 miles or 53.75 km; = < 3p per mile or < 4.5p per km. Maybe First’s decision to sell its TfL operations wasn’t such a bad move after all.
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Post by sid on Jan 2, 2018 12:35:38 GMT
Unlimited hopper ticket for bus and tram journeys starts later this month (Jan 2018). What is not mentioned is whether the hopper discount will apply to a second bus taken after a tube / rail journey. This was supposed to be part of the same functionality but isn't mentioned. I assume the full Mayoral press release will be published later today once people are in their offices. www.mayorwatch.co.uk/sadiq-confirms-unlimited-hopper-bus-fare-is-coming-this-month/Wow. Just. Wow. The great irony is that many of the public who support this policy are the same people who moan when services are cut. A short bus trip into town currently costs £1.50 for a return with the hopper fare. You have to go back to 2004 to get a bus fare so cheap (70p single, Oyster). Now with the unlimited rides policy, how far back does one have to go to find a fare so cheap? The unlimited trip change makes no economic sense and smacks of political ideology. Let’s play a game. Using the new unlimited Hopper fare, how far can you go by bus for £1.50? My trip: Weekday evening 607 from Ealing Broadway(depart 19:58) to Hayes Grapes. 140 to Heathrow (depart 20:25). X26 to West Croydon (depart 20:55). Assuming the 607 and X26 depart on time and leaving a few minutes for connections to the 140 and X26. Total mileage travelled: approx 33.4 miles or 53.75 km; = < 3p per mile or < 4.5p per km. Maybe First’s decision to sell its TfL operations wasn’t such a bad move after all.
Wow. Just. Wow....................................really?
Quite ironic that on a day when there is much criticism of a fares hike on the railway we have complaints on here about the lack of a fares hike?
And wouldn't any fares increase just exacerbate the decline in bus usage?
Isn't this change somewhat insignificant anyway? I mean how many buses or trams is anybody really going to board within a one hour period?
And what has First pulling out of London got to do with any of this?
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Post by busman on Jan 2, 2018 13:25:01 GMT
Wow. Just. Wow. The great irony is that many of the public who support this policy are the same people who moan when services are cut. A short bus trip into town currently costs £1.50 for a return with the hopper fare. You have to go back to 2004 to get a bus fare so cheap (70p single, Oyster). Now with the unlimited rides policy, how far back does one have to go to find a fare so cheap? The unlimited trip change makes no economic sense and smacks of political ideology. Let’s play a game. Using the new unlimited Hopper fare, how far can you go by bus for £1.50? My trip: Weekday evening 607 from Ealing Broadway(depart 19:58) to Hayes Grapes. 140 to Heathrow (depart 20:25). X26 to West Croydon (depart 20:55). Assuming the 607 and X26 depart on time and leaving a few minutes for connections to the 140 and X26. Total mileage travelled: approx 33.4 miles or 53.75 km; = < 3p per mile or < 4.5p per km. Maybe First’s decision to sell its TfL operations wasn’t such a bad move after all.
Wow. Just. Wow....................................really?
Quite ironic that on a day when there is much criticism of a fares hike on the railway we have complaints on here about the lack of a fares hike?
Isn't this change somewhat insignificant anyway? I mean how many buses or trams is anybody really going to board within a one hour period?
And what has First pulling out of London got to do with any of this?
The London bus and National rail fare situations are not comparible. Train users are paying more for a worse service. One of my colleagues is paying over £300 a year more, but at the same time has lost direct services into London, adding an extra connection with an additional 60-90 minutes of commuting a day. That doesn’t represent value for money for rail passengers. On the other hand London bus users are paying less for less frequent services with fewer routes. This is fair enough, but I would rather not see cuts to well used services. Just my personal preference that’s all. At such potentially low rates per mile, buses will have to be operating at good capacity throughout the day. One way to do that is to reduce frequencies and trim excess capacity from the network. One of the attractions of bus travel for me is that I can simply turn up and ride. I lose the will to wait anything longer than 10-12 minutes. Any change that might result in TfL collecting less revenue isn’t insignificant. It will all be paid for by their business efficiency plans i.e. making cuts to frequencies and shortening/axing bus routes. As TfL becomes more cost sensitive, this will also filter into the bidding process and ultimately on operator revenue. I just hope that the hopper fare and fare freeze policies don’t result in job losses further down the line. What I’m hoping will happen is that this change will encourage passengers to abandon their cars and come flooding back to bus travel. With the Elizabeth Line and the option to use the hopper fare to use buses to connect into and out of stations there is an incentive there for people to make the switch for East-West journeys. Until we see the bus passenger numbers for 2018, we won’t know how successful the hopper fare has been in attracting people back to the network.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 2, 2018 13:28:32 GMT
Wow. Just. Wow. The great irony is that many of the public who support this policy are the same people who moan when services are cut. A short bus trip into town currently costs £1.50 for a return with the hopper fare. You have to go back to 2004 to get a bus fare so cheap (70p single, Oyster). Now with the unlimited rides policy, how far back does one have to go to find a fare so cheap? The unlimited trip change makes no economic sense and smacks of political ideology. Let’s play a game. Using the new unlimited Hopper fare, how far can you go by bus for £1.50? My trip: Weekday evening 607 from Ealing Broadway(depart 19:58) to Hayes Grapes. 140 to Heathrow (depart 20:25). X26 to West Croydon (depart 20:55). Assuming the 607 and X26 depart on time and leaving a few minutes for connections to the 140 and X26. Total mileage travelled: approx 33.4 miles or 53.75 km; = < 3p per mile or < 4.5p per km. Maybe First’s decision to sell its TfL operations wasn’t such a bad move after all. Couple of comments in response. I think the main financial saving for passengers has already come with the original Hopper. That's cost TfL a few tens of millions of pounds in revenue - based on the scant numbers that have actually been released. What has not been explained is the apparently much greater "take up" than anticipated. I would like to see behind those numbers to get a feel for what's going on in terms of ridership and passenger behaviour. There is enough data now for TfL to be able to reach some initial conclusions. I don't think many people will gain from unlimited rides in an hour so the financial impact will be low. A few more will gain from the bus - rail - bus facility as some trips in London work effectively by using rail a short distance. Trips by DLR/Jub Line in east London to cross the Thames and then use a bus each end are obvious examples as DLR and Tube run frequently and pretty quickly. Normal rail journeys on lower frequencies in S London may not be so attractive. Clearly some people will "game" the unlimited Hopper facility to see just how far they can go but that's not normal behaviour. To be honest I don't see the relevance of the First Bus "sell up" move. They sold profitable UK operations as they urgently needed cash to pay down debt having overpaid for their USA school transport acquisitions. If they had not had that corporate misadventure then I rather feel they'd have stayed in London. Clearly there has been downward pressure on tender prices for several years and that will continue. The bigger problem for the bus companies now is the decline in overall workload and that may force some difficult issues in the next couple of years.
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Post by planesandtrains on Jan 2, 2018 13:33:22 GMT
Wow. Just. Wow....................................really?
Quite ironic that on a day when there is much criticism of a fares hike on the railway we have complaints on here about the lack of a fares hike?
Isn't this change somewhat insignificant anyway? I mean howany buses or trams is anybody really going to board within a one hour period?
And what has First pulling out of London got to do with any of this?
The London bus and National rail fare situations are not comparible. Train users are paying more for a worse service. One of my colleagues is paying over £300 a year more, but at the same time has lost direct services into London, adding an extra connection with an additional 60-90 minutes of commuting a day. That doesn’t represent value for money for rail passengers. On the other hand London bus users are paying less for less frequent services with fewer routes. This is fair enough, but I would rather not see cuts to well used services. Just my personal preference that’s all. Any change that might result in TfL collecting less revenue isn’t insignificant. It will all be paid for by their business efficiency plans i.e. making cuts to frequencies and shortening/axing bus routes. As TfL becomes more cost sensitive, this will also filter into the bidding process and ultimately on operator revenue. I just hope that the hopper fare and fare freeze policies don’t result in job losses further down the line. What I’m hoping will happen is that this change will encourage passengers to abandon their cars and come flooding back to bus travel. With the Elizabeth Line and the option to use the hopper fare to use buses to connect into and out of stations there is an incentive there for people to make the switch for East-West journeys. Until we see the bus passenger numbers for 2018, we won’t know how successful the hopper fare has been in attracting people back to the network. What annoys me is that you can ride as many buses as you like in an hour, yet nothing is done to sought out cross border routes. I can visit Dorking with an Oyster Card, I can visit Redhill. But if I wish to visit areas a little further than Molsey (which is closer to the London border than any of the places I listed) I have fork out £3-4 return already having paid for a yearly bus and tram pass. There has to be a border somewhere I agree, but having a bus war on a route that serves London (ahem 461) is just downright unacceptable. Don't get me started on the Kingston to Esher corridor. Why should I have to pay for an oyster match ticket within the London area having paid for a bus and tram pass. It's time for TFL to take some responsibility for those living on the border to the home counties
(error with formatting that I can't really sought hence the big space below)
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Post by snoggle on Jan 2, 2018 15:00:52 GMT
What annoys me is that you can ride as many buses as you like in an hour, yet nothing is done to sought out cross border routes. I can visit Dorking with an Oyster Card, I can visit Redhill. But if I wish to visit areas a little further than Molsey (which is closer to the London border than any of the places I listed) I have fork out £3-4 return already having paid for a yearly bus and tram pass. There has to be a border somewhere I agree, but having a bus war on a route that serves London (ahem 461) is just downright unacceptable. Don't get me started on the Kingston to Esher corridor. Why should I have to pay for an oyster match ticket within the London area having paid for a bus and tram pass. It's time for TFL to take some responsibility for those living on the border to the home counties Be careful what you wish for. TfL's solution is to progressively remove as many cross boundary services as it can get away with. They will sort the issue to their advantage and most definitely not to yours. Nothing positive has happened to cross boundary services since 1986 barring the short term "adventurous" period with Westlink and some modest frequency uplifts during Ken's expansionist era. If we were to be ruthless then TfL would not be operating the 411, 465, 405, 498 etc. Some of these exist as accidents of history and a couple more, like the 498, are TfL's fill-in when air quality directives in London caused non London operators to pull out. I would not be too shocked to see TfL trying very hard to get out of places like Staines, Thurrock and Epsom. The increased availability of higher euro spec buses on the second hand market plus relatively simple conversions to euro6 equivalence reduce the need for TfL to be running services. It could simply scrap services and leave it to the relevant commercial operators / local authorities to fill the gap. I imagine Ensign Bus would run into Greater London if the 370 and 372 were scrapped or pulled back to within Greater London thus removing subsidised fare competition. Similarly someone would fill some of the gaps around Surrey if TfL fell out of Epsom and Staines. Taking out 40m kilometres of service volume over 3 years must put cross boundary services at disproportionate risk when coupled with severe financial pressures on neighbouring authorities.
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Post by nickfreckle on Jan 8, 2018 22:04:28 GMT
So the Hopper fare is to go unlimited this month and the freeze will last until 2020. Excellent. Less money for the BOC's, margins even tighter and the bottom of the pile, the ones that drive the bloody things, and without whom there would be no service, are the ones that will suffer with well below inflation pay increases, less money in their household budgets for the next few years as the price on everything else goes up. So long as 'Londoners' get their nice cheap tickets, stuff those that provide the service.
Small wonder drivers are leaving the industry in droves and recruitment is struggling.
Nice one with your 'vote winning' vanity project Mr Kahn you idiot. How dare he pitch the line his old man was a bus driver again again, as he's shafting bus drivers right up the poo pipe.
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Post by sid on Jan 8, 2018 22:55:21 GMT
So the Hopper fare is to go unlimited this month and the freeze will last until 2020. Excellent. Less money for the BOC's, margins even tighter and the bottom of the pile, the ones that drive the bloody things, and without whom there would be no service, are the ones that will suffer with well below inflation pay increases, less money in their household budgets for the next few years as the price on everything else goes up. So long as 'Londoners' get their nice cheap tickets, stuff those that provide the service. Small wonder drivers are leaving the industry in droves and recruitment is struggling. Nice one with your 'vote winning' vanity project Mr Kahn you idiot. How dare he pitch the line his old man was a bus driver again again, as he's shafting bus drivers right up the poo pipe. The reality is that the fare freeze and hopper ticket were in his manifesto and of course he has no direct control over drivers wages.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 8, 2018 23:52:36 GMT
So the Hopper fare is to go unlimited this month and the freeze will last until 2020. Excellent. Less money for the BOC's, margins even tighter and the bottom of the pile, the ones that drive the bloody things, and without whom there would be no service, are the ones that will suffer with well below inflation pay increases, less money in their household budgets for the next few years as the price on everything else goes up. So long as 'Londoners' get their nice cheap tickets, stuff those that provide the service. Small wonder drivers are leaving the industry in droves and recruitment is struggling. Nice one with your 'vote winning' vanity project Mr Kahn you idiot. How dare he pitch the line his old man was a bus driver again again, as he's shafting bus drivers right up the poo pipe. While I understand the anger a few points to consider. 1. The expanded Hopper scheme is only expected to cost £5m extra a year. This was stated in the Budget Cttee meeting last week. This aligns with my comment that while it looks wonderful on paper the reality is that few people will be able to genuinely benefit from it on their usual journeys. £5m is small change in the TfL budget. 2. Yes there will be a lot of downward pressure on tender prices but there is also downward pressure on the scale of service. I suspect the bus companies are quite happy if it eases their recruitment problems and reduces overtime payments. Obviously some drivers won't like that but I get the sense every operator is struggling to run their services at present. 3. The Mayor has actually put in a minimum London wide starting salary which is funded via tender prices / contract terms. A "passport" to allow drivers to transfer between operators without penalty has either been introduced or will be. Again this costs money which TfL are funding as it is a Mayoral commitment. 4. It remains to be seen whether the unions are able or unable to achieve pay increases for bus operating staff. The operators may be under pressure but there are limits - they can't afford strikes and nor can TfL in terms of the public fall out. One thing with a contracted structure is that no service means no money from TfL and the operators can't sustain long strikes due to the loss of cash flow. They know this, the unions know this. This is partly why, despite obvious grievances in some companies, bus strikes have been pretty limited for many years. I am still of the view that the fares freeze may not last 4 years. We only need a few sectors of the London economy to start shedding jobs and there will be serious problems for TfL's revenue. At some point someone will say that fares have to go up because it is even more untenable to sack more people, cut more bus services or start cutting Tube and Overground services or cutting more investment projects. The cuts to tube investment funding have already been noticed by the media so they're in the spotlight already. Assembly members are beginning to wake up to the bus cuts so the political environment is getting tougher for the Mayor and giving him less room for manoeuvre. That can only get worse as time goes by.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 31, 2018 12:17:35 GMT
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 31, 2018 12:24:31 GMT
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Post by snowman on Jan 31, 2018 12:58:32 GMT
A lot of fanfare, but in the detail it suggests it will benefit about 13,000 people per day. A tiny number compared to the number of Londoners (about 0.15%) Tends to the style of mayor Khan, anything for bit of a photocall and looking like he is on side of all Londoners, even if as in this case it is irrelevant to 99.85%
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Post by redexpress on Jan 31, 2018 13:31:51 GMT
It's been working for me for a few days now. Must have had a soft launch ahead of the official announcement. In my case it makes no difference to TfL's pockets as I will end up hitting the 7-day cap anyway.
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