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Post by snoggle on Sept 14, 2016 22:13:38 GMT
The first meeting of the new TfL Board takes place next week. In amongst several papers about the Board and associated panels and Standing Orders is a paper setting out TfL's position on taking on more suburban rail services in London. content.tfl.gov.uk/board-20160922-item07-suburban-rail-services.pdfBefore anyone gets overly excited I've not read the paper in detail but there is no major step forward here because a joint Mayoral / DfT sign off is required. Clearly though TfL are keen to get things moving on taking over South Eastern and an announcement on this is necessary within weeks and three key actions are recommended. We shall see if City Hall and the new SoS at the DfT can actually work together or whether the recent rumpus over Southern and TfL "helping out" has soured things beyond repair.
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Post by snowman on Sept 15, 2016 8:06:58 GMT
I like the bit in the commisioners report regarding night tube in board papers :
More than 100,000 journeys were completed during first weekend of operation. 44,600 on Friday night and 51,700 on Saturday night
Maybe they ought to get a commisioner who can count
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Post by snoggle on Oct 14, 2016 12:13:04 GMT
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Post by snowman on Oct 14, 2016 15:20:13 GMT
It's a bit of a stupid mistake to have have put refunds after 30 minutes delay as an improvement when yesterday Transport Secretay announced compensation on new SW franchise after 15 mins delays.
Still foresee a lot of friction where fast trains are expected to share tracks with stopping trains e.g. Reading line. If SWT (or sucessor) is expected to grow revenue on longer distance services, they will need time savings, so not going to be happy being stuck behind TfL stopping services averaging 20mph. Surely the new franchise holder will change timetable in 2019 or 2020 to prioritise its services before handover of suburban.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 14, 2016 17:20:13 GMT
It's a bit of a stupid mistake to have have put refunds after 30 minutes delay as an improvement when yesterday Transport Secretay announced compensation on new SW franchise after 15 mins delays. Still foresee a lot of friction where fast trains are expected to share tracks with stopping trains e.g. Reading line. If SWT (or sucessor) is expected to grow revenue on longer distance services, they will need time savings, so not going to be happy being stuck behind TfL stopping services averaging 20mph. Surely the new franchise holder will change timetable in 2019 or 2020 to prioritise its services before handover of suburban. I don't see how they "SWT regional" can act in a way to disadvantage "SWT Gtr London". The franchise agreement already envisages separation into two units. If the "in principle" decision to devolve is granted by the DfT then TfL will be well within its rights to object to the revised track access agreement if running faster trains disadvantaged its services. It is just the situation people fear about long distance trains being b*gg*red up by TfL trains in reverse. ORR has to take an even hand in handling such applications and clearly Network Rail will not want irrational decisions being taken that worsen track utilisation. Clearly there are significant problems across South London's rail network that could thwart TfL's / Mayor's ambitions but I'm not sure London area commuters will be satisfied with the DfT retaining control. I certainly expect a riot in SE London if devolution does not happen there and I think the politicians know it - including the Tory ones.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 14, 2016 18:08:26 GMT
Don't worry, snoggle : I won't riot. I'll just sit in the corner and strop like a petulant child lol
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Post by Connor on Oct 14, 2016 18:18:26 GMT
Reducing the Charing Cross service on the Bexleyheath Line from 2TPH to peak hours only will go down like a lead balloon. Same with semi fast Sidcup services.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 14, 2016 18:27:10 GMT
Reducing the Charing Cross service on the Bexleyheath Line from 2TPH to peak hours only will go down like a lead balloon. Same with semi fast Sidcup services. I'll take a 6 tph train service to Cannon Street as a good trade off, tbh. I'd be happy to swap trains at LB for the times I need Waterloo/Charing Cross, even as a regular commuter to North Surrey from the Bexleyheath line.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 14, 2016 19:29:29 GMT
Reducing the Charing Cross service on the Bexleyheath Line from 2TPH to peak hours only will go down like a lead balloon. Same with semi fast Sidcup services. And therein lies the crux of so many problems with rail services in SE London. Of course everyone wants a direct train to everywhere but the downside is useless frequencies. It's why nothing ever gets better with rail services in South London. Obviously as a resident of East London I use the tube more than mainline rail and much prefer the high frequency, change where necessary service concept. To be honest if I had to change at London Bridge or even Lewisham from a train every 7 mins on the Bexleyheath Line to an almost equally frequent service to Charing Cross with a wait of a couple of minutes I'd rather do that than be boxed into 2 trains an hour which may provide useless onward connections. Clearly TfL are going to have a job on their hands convincing people about a different service concept when you are dealing with engrained travelling habits built up over decades (for many people). My own view is that trains every half an hour to different terminals is just plain daft if you are trying to move large numbers of people and / or encourage more people to use trains. You need long train formations and as high a frequency as you can reliably operate.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 14, 2016 20:12:04 GMT
Reducing the Charing Cross service on the Bexleyheath Line from 2TPH to peak hours only will go down like a lead balloon. Same with semi fast Sidcup services. And therein lies the crux of so many problems with rail services in SE London. Of course everyone wants a direct train to everywhere but the downside is useless frequencies. It's why nothing ever gets better with rail services in South London. Obviously as a resident of East London I use the tube more than mainline rail and much prefer the high frequency, change where necessary service concept. To be honest if I had to change at London Bridge or even Lewisham from a train every 7 mins on the Bexleyheath Line to an almost equally frequent service to Charing Cross with a wait of a couple of minutes I'd rather do that than be boxed into 2 trains an hour which may provide useless onward connections. Clearly TfL are going to have a job on their hands convincing people about a different service concept when you are dealing with engrained travelling habits built up over decades (for many people). My own view is that trains every half an hour to different terminals is just plain daft if you are trying to move large numbers of people and / or encourage more people to use trains. You need long train formations and as high a frequency as you can reliably operate. If I could like this post many times over... The change at London Bridge is straightforward. If I want to go onto the SWT lines, I also have the option of Victoria trains, where I can change at Denmark Hill to change to LO to Clapham Junction. High frequency over direct trains to everywhere every time for me.
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Post by Connor on Oct 14, 2016 22:08:32 GMT
And therein lies the crux of so many problems with rail services in SE London. Of course everyone wants a direct train to everywhere but the downside is useless frequencies. It's why nothing ever gets better with rail services in South London. Obviously as a resident of East London I use the tube more than mainline rail and much prefer the high frequency, change where necessary service concept. To be honest if I had to change at London Bridge or even Lewisham from a train every 7 mins on the Bexleyheath Line to an almost equally frequent service to Charing Cross with a wait of a couple of minutes I'd rather do that than be boxed into 2 trains an hour which may provide useless onward connections. Clearly TfL are going to have a job on their hands convincing people about a different service concept when you are dealing with engrained travelling habits built up over decades (for many people). My own view is that trains every half an hour to different terminals is just plain daft if you are trying to move large numbers of people and / or encourage more people to use trains. You need long train formations and as high a frequency as you can reliably operate. If I could like this post many times over... The change at London Bridge is straightforward. If I want to go onto the SWT lines, I also have the option of Victoria trains, where I can change at Denmark Hill to change to LO to Clapham Junction. High frequency over direct trains to everywhere every time for me. I use the CHX line the most and I appreciate being able to arrive into Central London, without having to make the additional stops at St Johns and New Cross that the CST services make, which is my biggest concern, other than the lost links to Waterloo and Charing Cross. Outside of peak hours, the Charing Cross services are the busiest, so why they are being lost is beyond me. What Connor would like to see is journey times reduced rather than increased, rather than frequency increases. I'd even like to see either CHX or CST services made semi fast, not stopping at Lewisham/Blackheath, Kidbrooke, Falconwood and Barnehurst. Diverted Gillingham services to stop at Welling instead of Eltham. And up to date interiors on the 376/465/466s.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 14, 2016 22:33:48 GMT
If I could like this post many times over... The change at London Bridge is straightforward. If I want to go onto the SWT lines, I also have the option of Victoria trains, where I can change at Denmark Hill to change to LO to Clapham Junction. High frequency over direct trains to everywhere every time for me. I use the CHX line the most and I appreciate being able to arrive into Central London, without having to make the additional stops at St Johns and New Cross that the CST services make, which is my biggest concern, other than the lost links to Waterloo and Charing Cross. Outside of peak hours, the Charing Cross services are the busiest, so why they are being lost is beyond me. What Connor would like to see is journey times reduced rather than increased, rather than frequency increases. I'd even like to see either CHX or CST services made semi fast, not stopping at Lewisham/Blackheath, Kidbrooke, Falconwood and Barnehurst. Diverted Gillingham services to stop at Welling instead of Eltham. And up to date interiors on the 376/465/466s. I'll guess to avoid too many conflicting movements, Connor. Easier to separate Bexleyheaths to go to CST than Sidcups or Orpingtons. Turn up and go is likely impossible with your desires I'm afraid, and that is for me important. I'll give you stopping diverted Gillinghams at Welling though, but instead of Bexleyheath rather than instead of Eltham. Once (if?) the Thameslink service starts, I'll guess that will stop at Welling as well as Bexleyheath and Eltham on diversion weekends. I believe these three are the busiest stations on the line.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 14, 2016 22:37:04 GMT
I use the CHX line the most and I appreciate being able to arrive into Central London, without having to make the additional stops at St Johns and New Cross that the CST services make, which is my biggest concern, other than the lost links to Waterloo and Charing Cross. Outside of peak hours, the Charing Cross services are the busiest, so why they are being lost is beyond me. What Connor would like to see is journey times reduced rather than increased, rather than frequency increases. I'd even like to see either CHX or CST services made semi fast, not stopping at Lewisham/Blackheath, Kidbrooke, Falconwood and Barnehurst. Diverted Gillingham services to stop at Welling instead of Eltham. And up to date interiors on the 376/465/466s. I know you are commenting as a user. I am commenting more as an observer and very occasion user of SET - largely because the service is so complex and infrequent. I don't think you need to get cross. No decision has been taken. TfL's ideas are a "suggestion" and nothing more. If they are allowed to take on the procurement of South Eastern's inner area services then it will be several years before any substantive change to services largely because capital works will be required to unlock capacity.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 15, 2016 0:06:19 GMT
If these do come to fruition, I'm a little baffled that the Victoria to Orpington local service is getting a frequency increase to 6 trains per hour. It's fairly busy but I've never seen it creaking to the seems unlike the lines out to the Lewisham & Dartford directions. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a more frequent service but surely it would be better off being put in elsewhere.
Also interesting to see them use Brixton Underground Station as an example of just how connective it is given many people travel in by bus to connect to the Victoria Line. However, whilst the bus network in Brixton is quite frequent (lowest frequency is every 15 minutes on the P5 at the busiest of times), it'd would be even better if it was bolstered even more given how important Brixton Station is in people's travel plans from the south.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 15, 2016 8:50:53 GMT
If these do come to fruition, I'm a little baffled that the Victoria to Orpington local service is getting a frequency increase to 6 trains per hour. It's fairly busy but I've never seen it creaking to the seems unlike the lines out to the Lewisham & Dartford directions. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a more frequent service but surely it would be better off being put in elsewhere. Also interesting to see them use Brixton Underground Station as an example of just how connective it is given many people travel in by bus to connect to the Victoria Line. However, whilst the bus network in Brixton is quite frequent (lowest frequency is every 15 minutes on the P5 at the busiest of times), it'd would be even better if it was bolstered even more given how important Brixton Station is in people's travel plans from the south. I suspect the TfL view is that the Orpington line is performing sub-optimally given its catchment area and ability to facilitate relatively quick journeys. One of those factors will be a comparatively poor frequency compared to the tube (hard to beat at Brixton now) and, as you observe, almost every bus service in Brixton. Upping frequency to 6 tph means average wait times fall and the relative attractiveness of the service rises compared to other choices. It's about shifting perceptions about the rail service. In the past only die-hards would have used the GOBLIN from Walthamstow to Barking because it was so infrequent and the stations were bleak, horrible places. Now (well when it's not shut for works) there is a constant stream of people all day long for the service because it's reliable, quick, reasonably frequent and the trains are in decent nick. Partly down to unfamiliarity and partly down to complex service patterns and low frequencies it rarely enters my head to even think about using rail services in South London. No issue with the tube and the buses might be slow at times but at least many are frequent and I roughly know where they go. The only rail services I do rely on in S London are the Overground because I know where they go and that they run every 15 mins or more frequently. I can't recall the last time any of the S London TOCs made any effort to publicise or promote their suburban trains. I suspect some lines do actually have reasonable services but there's no effort to get that into Londoner's heads. I know it's silly but I suspect one reason why usage of the Shenfield line has gone up 27% is because it's on the tube map and people have gone "what? there is a train to Ilford? I never knew that". It's not as if there aren't maps that show the wider rail network but there's no effort to shove them into people's hands whereas the tube map is everywhere and readily available.
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