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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 4:01:47 GMT
The Victoria - Orpington service runs every 15 mins at the moment, and off peak it is usually four carriage trains, Fast trains have priority over these services, so if there are problems these services are the ones that get cancelled. The connection at Brixton is dire. It is not step free either, although as pointed out many people use it , more so in the morning peak. Probably because changing trains at Brixton in the evening and waiting on a desolate unstaffed platform is not an attractive option.
As others have mentioned, the mindset of the Kent and outer se London commuter is different. With no tubes, leisure use of these lines is poor I'd say. Especially off peak and at weekends. It is all London based connections at present, if you want to travel by public transport to Greenwich, for example , from Penge then you will struggle. You see you have to go into London then out which puts people off.
In my opinion, SE London is totally screwed both on the rail and road network and it would need serious investment, forward thinking local authorities and years of distruption to change things for the better. Whilst on the subject I would bring up the absence of a decent night bus network in vast high density areas of SE London that I simply can't believe TfL haven't recognised and done something about before now.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 18, 2016 23:30:06 GMT
As others have mentioned, the mindset of the Kent and outer se London commuter is different. With no tubes, leisure use of these lines is poor I'd say. Especially off peak and at weekends. It is all London based connections at present, if you want to travel by public transport to Greenwich, for example , from Penge then you will struggle. You see you have to go into London then out which puts people off. In my opinion, SE London is totally screwed both on the rail and road network and it would need serious investment, forward thinking local authorities and years of distruption to change things for the better. Whilst on the subject I would bring up the absence of a decent night bus network in vast high density areas of SE London that I simply can't believe TfL haven't recognised and done something about before now. In the TfL plan for South Eastern part of the plan is to build high level platforms at Brockley. That would facilitate a rail based journey from Penge (West) to Greenwich with a change at Brockley and at Lewisham to the DLR. OK that's a bit clumsy with two changes but with accessible stations and decent enough frequencies it wouldn't be too much of a hardship. I agree SE London needs a lot of money spending to improve the historical legacy of "not quite connecting" competing railway lines. At least TfL have some ideas in that direction. That's more than the DfT have had in 50 years. DfT can't even claim credit for the original Thameslink as that was a BR NSE invention. I wonder if the SE London night bus issue is a problem of history coupled with demographics. There's not been a strong night network in S London for as many years as North London. I also wonder if there is a perhaps wrong view of parts of SE London that it's "solid suburbia" with no demand from "bright young things" from a bus from Central London or from poorer paid workers needing to travel early in the morning to jobs in the centre. Some parts of S London also don't have any obvious night life. You have places like Kingston, Brixton, Croydon and Bexleyheath and they all have a level of local night bus coverage plus radial services into town. There's also few obvious radial links that could run at night that could be added to the network - if you look at the 122 it just misses a few centres or facilities that might benefit from a link (QE Hospital, Eltham Town Centre). Doesn't matter during the day as other buses run but a night it doesn't quite work.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 4:48:11 GMT
As others have mentioned, the mindset of the Kent and outer se London commuter is different. With no tubes, leisure use of these lines is poor I'd say. Especially off peak and at weekends. It is all London based connections at present, if you want to travel by public transport to Greenwich, for example , from Penge then you will struggle. You see you have to go into London then out which puts people off. In my opinion, SE London is totally screwed both on the rail and road network and it would need serious investment, forward thinking local authorities and years of distruption to change things for the better. Whilst on the subject I would bring up the absence of a decent night bus network in vast high density areas of SE London that I simply can't believe TfL haven't recognised and done something about before now. In the TfL plan for South Eastern part of the plan is to build high level platforms at Brockley. That would facilitate a rail based journey from Penge (West) to Greenwich with a change at Brockley and at Lewisham to the DLR. OK that's a bit clumsy with two changes but with accessible stations and decent enough frequencies it wouldn't be too much of a hardship. I agree SE London needs a lot of money spending to improve the historical legacy of "not quite connecting" competing railway lines. At least TfL have some ideas in that direction. That's more than the DfT have had in 50 years. DfT can't even claim credit for the original Thameslink as that was a BR NSE invention. I wonder if the SE London night bus issue is a problem of history coupled with demographics. There's not been a strong night network in S London for as many years as North London. I also wonder if there is a perhaps wrong view of parts of SE London that it's "solid suburbia" with no demand from "bright young things" from a bus from Central London or from poorer paid workers needing to travel early in the morning to jobs in the centre. Some parts of S London also don't have any obvious night life. You have places like Kingston, Brixton, Croydon and Bexleyheath and they all have a level of local night bus coverage plus radial services into town. There's also few obvious radial links that could run at night that could be added to the network - if you look at the 122 it just misses a few centres or facilities that might benefit from a link (QE Hospital, Eltham Town Centre). Doesn't matter during the day as other buses run but a night it doesn't quite work. That's an interesting point you've made about the historical competition between the pre war rail firms! Bromley north and Bromley south perfect example. I'd like to see the DLR extend from Lewisham Along the Hayes line, and the use of the branch off to Beckenham Junction. I know Bromley Council would rather it go to Bromley North. What's really annoying is there is no connecting station onto Overground on the South Eastern lines. I think a new station should be built in New Cross connecting them
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Post by bengady3 on Oct 19, 2016 6:53:35 GMT
In the TfL plan for South Eastern part of the plan is to build high level platforms at Brockley. That would facilitate a rail based journey from Penge (West) to Greenwich with a change at Brockley and at Lewisham to the DLR. OK that's a bit clumsy with two changes but with accessible stations and decent enough frequencies it wouldn't be too much of a hardship. I agree SE London needs a lot of money spending to improve the historical legacy of "not quite connecting" competing railway lines. At least TfL have some ideas in that direction. That's more than the DfT have had in 50 years. DfT can't even claim credit for the original Thameslink as that was a BR NSE invention. I wonder if the SE London night bus issue is a problem of history coupled with demographics. There's not been a strong night network in S London for as many years as North London. I also wonder if there is a perhaps wrong view of parts of SE London that it's "solid suburbia" with no demand from "bright young things" from a bus from Central London or from poorer paid workers needing to travel early in the morning to jobs in the centre. Some parts of S London also don't have any obvious night life. You have places like Kingston, Brixton, Croydon and Bexleyheath and they all have a level of local night bus coverage plus radial services into town. There's also few obvious radial links that could run at night that could be added to the network - if you look at the 122 it just misses a few centres or facilities that might benefit from a link (QE Hospital, Eltham Town Centre). Doesn't matter during the day as other buses run but a night it doesn't quite work. That's an interesting point you've made about the historical competition between the pre war rail firms! Bromley north and Bromley south perfect example. I'd like to see the DLR extend from Lewisham Along the Hayes line, and the use of the branch off to Beckenham Junction. I know Bromley Council would rather it go to Bromley North. What's really annoying is there is no connecting station onto Overground on the South Eastern lines. I think a new station should be built in New Cross connecting them There is already plans to build platforms on the bridge of the Nunhead to Lewisham Line, Which means easier interchange for passengers which are going from maybe West Croydon to Dartford. DLR cant be extended because of the terminus platforms, Imo I would rather have a Bakerloo Line extension to Hayes and a branch to Beckenham Junction. I was thinking if there should be an interchange with the Chatham Main Line and The Overground near Penge and Sydenham with a footpath connecting them. They should bring back the original River Line(Now Jubilee Line) proposal which could see a branch from North Greenwich to Thamesmead via Royal Docks and Woolwich
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Post by snowman on Oct 19, 2016 8:55:04 GMT
There is obviously history involves. For many years there were regular night trains from Holborn Viaduct / Blackfriars which carried print workers and market workers. These were stopped in 1960s when cars took over (clear roads, No evening or night parking restrictions on those days).
So at one time South and SE London had better night service on rail than other parts of London. Unlike the modern night tube these operated daily.
The problem as I see it is that there is not a London plan timewise. What is happening is that parts are getting upgraded (which are the easy to do bits, even if those areas are already better served than other areas) so we are getting a two tier system in short term. Basically some areas are being left behind on upgrades.
I think the concept is there in TfLs plan but they missed a trick in not explaining clearly that it is to elevate parts not upgraded as part of Thameslink and Crossrail (should have added a third colour to show 2019 services that are upgrading under current plans). The Orange lines map implies everyone is getting identical service.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 19, 2016 9:16:14 GMT
So basically. TfL is saying, we will take the Southern lines where DDO is already in operation, and leave the troublesome areas with the DfT.
Love to see how they will increase frequencies on lines already at capacity when they have said they have reached agreement with the surrounding counties that their rail users will not be disadvantaged.
The Metro area of Southern that the Mayor wants to take over is largely unaffected by the strikes ... but TfL seem happy to conveniently overlook this when they go into spin mode
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 19, 2016 9:21:21 GMT
What's really annoying is there is no connecting station onto Overground on the South Eastern lines. I think a new station should be built in New Cross connecting them Does the existing New Cross Station provide connectivity to Overground from South Eastern? Is your wish not already there?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 10:00:29 GMT
What's really annoying is there is no connecting station onto Overground on the South Eastern lines. I think a new station should be built in New Cross connecting them Does the existing New Cross Station provide connectivity to Overground from South Eastern? Is your wish not already there? Not exactly very useful mate as its a branch line running north, passengers wanting to head south have to change to a train that stops at New Cross, then change again at Canada Water. By which time, it's quicker to go to London Bridge and head back out. Even though you've crossed the line you want. So no my wish does not already exist.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 19, 2016 10:07:15 GMT
Does the existing New Cross Station provide connectivity to Overground from South Eastern? Is your wish not already there? Not exactly very useful mate as its a branch line running north, passengers wanting to head south have to change to a train that stops at New Cross, then change again at Canada Water. By which time, it's quicker to go to London Bridge and head back out. Even though you've crossed the line you want. So no my wish does not already exist. So where would you propose this station is built?
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Post by vjaska on Oct 19, 2016 12:08:06 GMT
In the TfL plan for South Eastern part of the plan is to build high level platforms at Brockley. That would facilitate a rail based journey from Penge (West) to Greenwich with a change at Brockley and at Lewisham to the DLR. OK that's a bit clumsy with two changes but with accessible stations and decent enough frequencies it wouldn't be too much of a hardship. I agree SE London needs a lot of money spending to improve the historical legacy of "not quite connecting" competing railway lines. At least TfL have some ideas in that direction. That's more than the DfT have had in 50 years. DfT can't even claim credit for the original Thameslink as that was a BR NSE invention. I wonder if the SE London night bus issue is a problem of history coupled with demographics. There's not been a strong night network in S London for as many years as North London. I also wonder if there is a perhaps wrong view of parts of SE London that it's "solid suburbia" with no demand from "bright young things" from a bus from Central London or from poorer paid workers needing to travel early in the morning to jobs in the centre. Some parts of S London also don't have any obvious night life. You have places like Kingston, Brixton, Croydon and Bexleyheath and they all have a level of local night bus coverage plus radial services into town. There's also few obvious radial links that could run at night that could be added to the network - if you look at the 122 it just misses a few centres or facilities that might benefit from a link (QE Hospital, Eltham Town Centre). Doesn't matter during the day as other buses run but a night it doesn't quite work. That's an interesting point you've made about the historical competition between the pre war rail firms! Bromley north and Bromley south perfect example. I'd like to see the DLR extend from Lewisham Along the Hayes line, and the use of the branch off to Beckenham Junction. I know Bromley Council would rather it go to Bromley North. What's really annoying is there is no connecting station onto Overground on the South Eastern lines. I think a new station should be built in New Cross connecting them Just a shame that one couldn't of been built at Brixton due to Overground using the high level line and placement of platforms being difficult and expensive.
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Post by 700101 on Oct 19, 2016 12:42:18 GMT
I would like TFL to extended the Overground from New Cross to Bromley North via Hither Green, which could allow a later service to be added from Highbury
The Bakerloo line proposed extension to Hayes/Beckenham Junction would be far more beneficial as a DLR extension from Lewisham would mean a complete rebuild of the DLR platforms to be underground. This also free's up national rail paths on both slow and fast lines to add additional services where needed.
The proposed Thameslink Luton to Rainham service to instead run via Hither Green & Sidcup to avoid conflicting movements south of London Bridge, these could replace the current Gravesend services or run additionally with them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 4:41:35 GMT
There is obviously history involves. For many years there were regular night trains from Holborn Viaduct / Blackfriars which carried print workers and market workers. These were stopped in 1960s when cars took over (clear roads, No evening or night parking restrictions on those days). So at one time South and SE London had better night service on rail than other parts of London. Unlike the modern night tube these operated daily. The problem as I see it is that there is not a London plan timewise. What is happening is that parts are getting upgraded (which are the easy to do bits, even if those areas are already better served than other areas) so we are getting a two tier system in short term. Basically some areas are being left behind on upgrades. I think the concept is there in TfLs plan but they missed a trick in not explaining clearly that it is to elevate parts not upgraded as part of Thameslink and Crossrail (should have added a third colour to show 2019 services that are upgrading under current plans). The Orange lines map implies everyone is getting identical service. Your point about print workers using early morning trains could now actually be replaced with NHS staff, police officers ,bus drivers , and other essential workers , priced out of London and its suburbs who all have a struggle to get into London to serve for a 6am shift change.
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