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Post by vjaska on Dec 16, 2016 12:01:49 GMT
DOO is inherently unsafe. When introduced on Thameslink in the 80s the trains were 4 cars long and didn't carry anywhere near the numbers carried now on 12 car trains. If anything happened on a 12 car train it would take a long time for the driver to respond to an emergency. That's why we want the guarantee of a fully trained second person or guard on every train. But yet the Underground has used the same sort of system for at least the last 30 years and is a ridiculously busy network - I can understand arguments about guards losing jobs but on safety grounds, I'm very sceptical about it. I appreciate I know diddly squat about trains but that's how I see it.
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Post by daveb0789 on Dec 16, 2016 12:10:58 GMT
Okay well the thing about the tube is the stations are closer together, there is rarely any conflict with other trains in tube tunnels (obviously the sections above ground are) but more importantly there is always a member of staff at each and every tube station on hand to assist. Now I can understand driver only operation on metro (London) suburban type services where stations are close together and speeds are much lower. But out in the country where stations are miles - and I mean up to 10 miles apart in some cases and trains are doing 90 mph plus - you're going to need back up if something goes wrong.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 16, 2016 12:19:16 GMT
Okay well the thing about the tube is the stations are closer together, there is rarely any conflict with other trains in tube tunnels (obviously the sections above ground are) but more importantly there is always a member of staff at each and every tube station on hand to assist. Now I can understand driver only operation on metro (London) suburban type services where stations are close together and speeds are much lower. But out in the country where stations are miles - and I mean up to 10 miles apart in some cases and trains are doing 90 mph plus - you're going to need back up if something goes wrong. Ok that's fine but don't other train operators use the same system? How many problems have they had with this system in terms of safety?
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Post by daveb0789 on Dec 16, 2016 12:22:21 GMT
Okay well the thing about the tube is the stations are closer together, there is rarely any conflict with other trains in tube tunnels (obviously the sections above ground are) but more importantly there is always a member of staff at each and every tube station on hand to assist. Now I can understand driver only operation on metro (London) suburban type services where stations are close together and speeds are much lower. But out in the country where stations are miles - and I mean up to 10 miles apart in some cases and trains are doing 90 mph plus - you're going to need back up if something goes wrong. Ok that's fine but don't other train operators use the same system? How many problems have they had with this system in terms of safety? Lots of problems ranging from trap and drag incidents to wheelchair users or visually impaired people being stuck on a train. So if you're on a driver only 12 car train right at the back and some thugs get on and start trouble - how will the driver know ? But a guard will and can call for help.
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Post by SILENCED on Dec 16, 2016 13:06:18 GMT
Ok that's fine but don't other train operators use the same system? How many problems have they had with this system in terms of safety? Lots of problems ranging from trap and drag incidents to wheelchair users or visually impaired people being stuck on a train. So if you're on a driver only 12 car train right at the back and some thugs get on and start trouble - how will the driver know ? But a guard will and can call for help. So your a guard in the 12th carriage and a thug gets on in the 3rd carriage, how will the guard know? DOO Thameslink are death traps are they? Should they have health warning stamped on the outside of trains advising using these trains may cause serious injury or death? Probably not, as recent reports have declared they are safe.
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Post by daveb0789 on Dec 16, 2016 13:06:34 GMT
Part of a guards job is to patrol the train(walk up and down through the it) and - yes i know not all guards often do and yes I know you can't get to every carriage dependent on the train type but that's the theory.
Reports by who ?
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Post by SILENCED on Dec 16, 2016 13:14:05 GMT
Part of a guards job is to patrol the trai(walk up and down through the it) and - yes i know not all guards often do and yes I know you can't get to every carriage dependent on the train type but that's the theory. What percentage of Southern Guards actually do that ... probably less than 10%, but definitely less than 20%. Maybe if guards had of actually done the job we are now finding out they should have been doing, we would value them more. You can use the argument about the guard is here for this safety purpose, but if the reality is the majority do not perform that role ... you can understand why many of the public are susceptible to not accepting the majority of the safety argument.
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Post by daveb0789 on Dec 16, 2016 13:15:37 GMT
Part of a guards job is to patrol the trai(walk up and down through the it) and - yes i know not all guards often do and yes I know you can't get to every carriage dependent on the train type but that's the theory. What percentage of Southern Guards actually do that ... probably less than 10%, but definitely less than 20%. Maybe if guards had of actually done the job we are now finding out they should have been doing, we would value them more. You can use the argument about the guard is here for this safety purpose, but if the reality is the majority do not perform that role ... you can understand why many are susceptible to not accepting the majority of the safety argument. Well you can't prove that figure. Thats all supposition. I'm willing to concede that not all guards patrol their trains as they should - maybe that will now change. What I know is the second person who must be on my train at all times is invaluable and just to remind everyone I still drive PCVs too and have done for 20 years.
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Post by SILENCED on Dec 16, 2016 13:19:01 GMT
What percentage of Southern Guards actually do that ... probably less than 10%, but definitely less than 20%. Maybe if guards had of actually done the job we are now finding out they should have been doing, we would value them more. You can use the argument about the guard is here for this safety purpose, but if the reality is the majority do not perform that role ... you can understand why many are susceptible to not accepting the majority of the safety argument. Well you can't prove how that figure. Thats all supposition. I'm willing to concede that not all guards patrol their trains as they should - maybe that will change. Agreed no evidence to back it up as not something I have actually recorded ... but based on personal experience. Yesterday I was in coach 3 of 4 on a Southern service with a guard ... and never saw him once.
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Post by daveb0789 on Dec 16, 2016 13:21:21 GMT
Well you can't prove how that figure. Thats all supposition. I'm willing to concede that not all guards patrol their trains as they should - maybe that will change. Agreed no evidence to back it up as not something I have actually recorded ... but based on personal experience. Yesterday I was in coach 3 of 4 on a Southern service with a guard ... and never saw him once. Agreed - my conductor colleagues are well aware they should be more visible. The present situation might change things.
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Post by Connor on Dec 16, 2016 14:46:47 GMT
Ok that's fine but don't other train operators use the same system? How many problems have they had with this system in terms of safety? Lots of problems ranging from trap and drag incidents to wheelchair users or visually impaired people being stuck on a train. So if you're on a driver only 12 car train right at the back and some thugs get on and start trouble - how will the driver know ? But a guard will and can call for help. We are world shifting towards automation, and people are struggling to deal with the change. Guards may be needed on certain lines; the Breckland line where you have request stops, unsupervised/tiny platforms, no self service ticket machines and whatnot.... I can't see any issue with DOO on the Brighton Main Line and the scaremongering regarding safety 'concerns' by unions is ridiculous. Anyway, I'd much rather have staff on platforms than guards, but that's my view...
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Post by vjaska on Dec 16, 2016 16:15:49 GMT
Lots of problems ranging from trap and drag incidents to wheelchair users or visually impaired people being stuck on a train. So if you're on a driver only 12 car train right at the back and some thugs get on and start trouble - how will the driver know ? But a guard will and can call for help. We are world shifting towards automation, and people are struggling to deal with the change. Guards may be needed on certain lines; the Breckland line where you have request stops, unsupervised/tiny platforms, no self service ticket machines and whatnot.... I can't see any issue with DOO on the Brighton Main Line and the scaremongering regarding safety 'concerns' by unions is ridiculous. Anyway, I'd much rather have staff on platforms than guards, but that's my view... Couldn't agree more - keep those small lines with guards if necessary but otherwise, the new technology should be embraced and installed. I'm sick and tired of unions holding passengers to ransom and ruining their lives with woefully exaggerated claims regarding safety. One passenger from Brighton had to book a hotel due to the disruption but of course, nor the unions or Southern will compensate him or the many thousands who have been blighted by this. Southern could of handled it so much better but the unions are just as bad - some may even argue they were even worse. I'm all for workers rights but at the same time, they shouldn't be openly abused either.
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Post by MoEnviro on Dec 20, 2016 20:21:40 GMT
An interesting article from the Editor of Rail magazine (see RAIL 816)
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Post by ibus246 on Dec 20, 2016 20:35:30 GMT
An interesting article from the Editor of Rail magazine (see RAIL 816) Interesting that 222 of the 223 conductors have signed up for the new role. The old phrase "there's always one" springs to mind!!! (Yes I'm aware it could be for a number of reasons)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2017 16:55:38 GMT
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