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Post by snoggle on May 9, 2019 9:28:49 GMT
There is a very interesting article on the whole process on the Abellio website. It would seem Abellio is determined to press ahead with plans but will not reveal until the stand still is over. I am assuming the stand still is extended indefinetly until the court case is over. www.abellio.com/news/abellio-statement-east-midlands-franchise-awardDepends on what a judge says. They may allow the award to proceed but the case against the DfT to be heard. Depends on the merits of the arguments put forward. That is what happened with the Picc Line stock. The contract was still awarded to Siemens *but* the aggrieved parties will still have their day in court against TfL. They may end up being awarded some form of "damages" or their bid costs being refunded. Clearly not the same as gaining the contract. We must wait to see what happens in this instance. If the award ends up being scrapped or delayed indefinitely then things get very interesting very quickly as the DfT may have to "nationalise" the franchise in the short term. Despite Abellio "pressing ahead" the reality is that very little will happen and not much money will be spent until there is clarity. They certainly won't be signing contracts for anything with anyone (such as for new or newer trains) and they will almost certainly be asking the DfT for a delay to the franchise start date the longer the legal process grinds on. That leaves DfT with the dilemma of possibly having to negotiate *another* extension with Stagecoach to ensure East Midlands services keep running or nationalising it as I said above!
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 9:51:11 GMT
There is a very interesting article on the whole process on the Abellio website. It would seem Abellio is determined to press ahead with plans but will not reveal until the stand still is over. I am assuming the stand still is extended indefinetly until the court case is over. www.abellio.com/news/abellio-statement-east-midlands-franchise-awardDepends on what a judge says. They may allow the award to proceed but the case against the DfT to be heard. Depends on the merits of the arguments put forward. That is what happened with the Picc Line stock. The contract was still awarded to Siemens *but* the aggrieved parties will still have their day in court against TfL. They may end up being awarded some form of "damages" or their bid costs being refunded. Clearly not the same as gaining the contract. We must wait to see what happens in this instance. If the award ends up being scrapped or delayed indefinitely then things get very interesting very quickly as the DfT may have to "nationalise" the franchise in the short term. Despite Abellio "pressing ahead" the reality is that very little will happen and not much money will be spent until there is clarity. They certainly won't be signing contracts for anything with anyone (such as for new or newer trains) and they will almost certainly be asking the DfT for a delay to the franchise start date the longer the legal process grinds on. That leaves DfT with the dilemma of possibly having to negotiate *another* extension with Stagecoach to ensure East Midlands services keep running or nationalising it as I said above! Lawyers will be making a mint out of this mess. DfT officials have expressed their certainty that the process was fair etc. Their decision to embargo Stagecoach’s non compliant bid and further, to ban them from all other bids, over accepting Abellio’s non compliant bid and NOT embargo them from all other bids, will be scrutinised meticulously by expert lawyers. Now given the state the public sector is in, if I was a betting man, I think I know where I would put my money. Add to that the leaking allegation. That is said to have been investigated by a 3rd party, who exactly that was I don’t know. But this will also be thoroughly investigated by lawyers now. Quite how a network rail employee could send , by mistake, documents to Abellio about Stagecoach, well who knows. Said employee will be investigated now. What a shambles.
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Post by snoggle on May 9, 2019 10:06:17 GMT
Lawyers will be making a mint out of this mess. DfT officials have expressed their certainty that the process was fair etc. Their decision to embargo Stagecoach’s non compliant bid and further, to ban them from all other bids, over accepting Abellio’s non compliant bid and NOT embargo them from all other bids, will be scrutinised meticulously by expert lawyers. Now given the state the public sector is in, if I was a betting man, I think I know where I would put my money. Add to that the leaking allegation. That is said to have been investigated by a 3rd party, who exactly that was I don’t know. But this will also be thoroughly investigated by lawyers now. Quite how a network rail employee could send , by mistake, documents to Abellio about Stagecoach, well who knows. Said employee will be investigated now. What a shambles. Perhaps I am in too nice a mood but I don't see some sort of conspiracy over the wrong E mail thing by Network Rail. It's far too easy in a pressured process like a franchise bid for people to make errors. We have all sent things to the wrong person, got address lists wrong, made spelling errors, pressed send too early. If I take Abellio's statement as to what they did at face value then they did precisely the right thing as did the DfT in terms of verifying as to whether there was a breach or not. Yes it was a serious mistake but if the documents were never opened, never copied, never moved from the E Mail in which they arrived then what precisely has been breached? Nothing. I can understand Stagecoach being angry but I assume they were part of the investigation in terms of being able to verify what was done by the third party to verify no breach was made. Now they either accept that or they have alternative *evidence* which I assume they used to challenge the findings of the third party. If they didn't do this at the time then why not? That's the time to force the issue and make people go back and look at what was done. Of course the lawyers will be all over this but that is par for the course for Stagecoach. They have regularly challenged and disputed what they signed up to with the DfT. Happened all the time on South West Trains. One reason why the extension of Oyster to NR services took so long. I am not saying the DfT are blameless - sadly they have form for mismanagement of procurement processes but I am perhaps a little sceptical here as to quite what the motivation is behind such a large scale legal challenge from Stagecoach. It could cost Stagecoach a lot of money and their stock market value is not what it once was. Shareholders may not be impressed if millions are chucked down the drain on unsuccessful legal bills.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 10:13:47 GMT
Lawyers will be making a mint out of this mess. DfT officials have expressed their certainty that the process was fair etc. Their decision to embargo Stagecoach’s non compliant bid and further, to ban them from all other bids, over accepting Abellio’s non compliant bid and NOT embargo them from all other bids, will be scrutinised meticulously by expert lawyers. Now given the state the public sector is in, if I was a betting man, I think I know where I would put my money. Add to that the leaking allegation. That is said to have been investigated by a 3rd party, who exactly that was I don’t know. But this will also be thoroughly investigated by lawyers now. Quite how a network rail employee could send , by mistake, documents to Abellio about Stagecoach, well who knows. Said employee will be investigated now. What a shambles. Perhaps I am in too nice a mood but I don't see some sort of conspiracy over the wrong E mail thing by Network Rail. It's far too easy in a pressured process like a franchise bid for people to make errors. We have all sent things to the wrong person, got address lists wrong, made spelling errors, pressed send too early. If I take Abellio's statement as to what they did at face value then they did precisely the right thing as did the DfT in terms of verifying as to whether there was a breach or not. Yes it was a serious mistake but if the documents were never opened, never copied, never moved from the E Mail in which they arrived then what precisely has been breached? Nothing. I can understand Stagecoach being angry but I assume they were part of the investigation in terms of being able to verify what was done by the third party to verify no breach was made. Now they either accept that or they have alternative *evidence* which I assume they used to challenge the findings of the third party. If they didn't do this at the time then why not? That's the time to force the issue and make people go back and look at what was done. Of course the lawyers will be all over this but that is par for the course for Stagecoach. They have regularly challenged and disputed what they signed up to with the DfT. Happened all the time on South West Trains. One reason why the extension of Oyster to NR services took so long. I am not saying the DfT are blameless - sadly they have form for mismanagement of procurement processes but I am perhaps a little sceptical here as to quite what the motivation is behind such a large scale legal challenge from Stagecoach. It could cost Stagecoach a lot of money and their stock market value is not what it once was. Shareholders may not be impressed if millions are chucked down the drain on unsuccessful legal bills. No precisely my point, there may well be no conspiracy. But all the lawyers need to show is an element of doubt, of possible mistakes made, an error in the bidding process, unreasonable decision making, and the tax payer ends up suffering potentially. I find it very worrying that DfT are relying on a foreign government owned firm, backing up UK pension funds. A European firm at that. From part of the world our own government is trying to “leave”.
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Post by snoggle on May 9, 2019 10:30:56 GMT
No precisely my point, there may well be no conspiracy. But all the lawyers need to show is an element of doubt, of possible mistakes made, an error in the bidding process, unreasonable decision making, and the tax payer ends up suffering potentially. I find it very worrying that DfT are relying on a foreign government owned firm, backing up UK pension funds. A European firm at that. From part of the world our own government is trying to “leave”. I find it far more worrying that the DfT is trying to shirk its responsibilities in respect the Railway Industry Pension Fund. Dumping risk on to parties that are unlikely to be able to shoulder the burden does no one any favours at all - least of all current and future pensioners. Still this is Thicko Grayling all over - doing something that is superficially clever and which then ends up costings hundreds of millions (or more likely billions in this case). That man is a liability.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 10:37:22 GMT
No precisely my point, there may well be no conspiracy. But all the lawyers need to show is an element of doubt, of possible mistakes made, an error in the bidding process, unreasonable decision making, and the tax payer ends up suffering potentially. I find it very worrying that DfT are relying on a foreign government owned firm, backing up UK pension funds. A European firm at that. From part of the world our own government is trying to “leave”. I find it far more worrying that the DfT is trying to shirk its responsibilities in respect the Railway Industry Pension Fund. Dumping risk on to parties that are unlikely to be able to shoulder the burden does no one any favours at all - least of all current and future pensioners. Still this is Thicko Grayling all over - doing something that is superficially clever and which then ends up costings hundreds of millions (or more likely billions in this case). That man is a liability. Absolutely. Branson won last time when DfT awarded a contract of theirs to First. Perhaps Stagecoach are being pushed down a line here. Could be disastrous.
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Post by YY13VKP on May 9, 2019 15:00:48 GMT
Just seen the following posted on Twitter:
I thought if Stagecoach launched a legal challenge, the contracts couldn't be signed until the legal case has been closed unless it's been thrown out?
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Post by snowman on May 9, 2019 15:18:09 GMT
Just seen the following posted on Twitter: I thought if Stagecoach launched a legal challenge, the contracts couldn't be signed until the legal case has been closed unless it's been thrown out? Stagecoach failed to get an injunction to prevent the signing As the standstill period ended last night, contract could be signed
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Post by towerman on May 10, 2019 14:40:34 GMT
Abellio have stated new trains when they take over MML.More ICE bi-modes?Also what will happen to the Cl222s?Maybe they'll replace the 125s on the ECML. Err no one knows for certain. Once the contract "standstill" period is expired then Abellio should make an announcement about rolling stock orders. That should be imminent. Hitachi have to be a strong contender for bi-modes but Bombardier apparently have a design. There are also swirling rumours that Class 180s may be used to remove some but not all HSTs from the MML to partly meet the DDA deadline. However the class 180s are notoriously unreliable so this may be a very poor choice on Abellio's part. There is no need for class 222s to go to the ECML as the entire East Coast fleet will be replaced by Hitachi Azumas. They come into service in May on Leeds services. There has been a load of speculation about what happens with the DMU fleet for East Midlands as it is supposed to be largely replaced but probably not with new trains just old ones from other franchises - more 158s, 156s and 170s. There is also the question of what will work on the split Liverpool - Norwich service and who gets the western half of the service. Could they perhaps go to Hull Trains to replace the unreliable Cl180s.
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Post by SILENCED on May 10, 2019 14:43:25 GMT
Err no one knows for certain. Once the contract "standstill" period is expired then Abellio should make an announcement about rolling stock orders. That should be imminent. Hitachi have to be a strong contender for bi-modes but Bombardier apparently have a design. There are also swirling rumours that Class 180s may be used to remove some but not all HSTs from the MML to partly meet the DDA deadline. However the class 180s are notoriously unreliable so this may be a very poor choice on Abellio's part. There is no need for class 222s to go to the ECML as the entire East Coast fleet will be replaced by Hitachi Azumas. They come into service in May on Leeds services. There has been a load of speculation about what happens with the DMU fleet for East Midlands as it is supposed to be largely replaced but probably not with new trains just old ones from other franchises - more 158s, 156s and 170s. There is also the question of what will work on the split Liverpool - Norwich service and who gets the western half of the service. Could they perhaps go to Hull Trains to replace the unreliable Cl180s. Hull Trains also has Hitachis on order
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Post by snowman on May 12, 2019 7:03:26 GMT
Could they perhaps go to Hull Trains to replace the unreliable Cl180s. Hull Trains also has Hitachis on order The East Midlands train order is going to struggle (contractually one is required by Dec 2021 with full fleet by summer 2022) What’s more the DfT has given undertaking (when it cancelled the MML electrification) that bi modes would not take more than 1 minute longer than current trains London-Sheffield (existing wires are being modified from 100 to 125mph spec), and short wiring extension to Market Harborough has been reinstated. Choice is : Hitachi class 802 derivative, could be delivered on time, but can’t meet running time Bombardier (would keep Derby happy), but unlikely to be delivered in time Stadler bi-mode, not clear if can meet spec, and get through all the approvals in time Something else, derivative of something abroad, but risky to get it built and approved in time So appears that all potential rolling stock could be non compliant against bid. And with a possible investigation into the award hanging over them, which non compliant fleet bid might DfT have considered to be near enough
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Post by SILENCED on May 12, 2019 13:38:52 GMT
Seems Arriva are joining Stagecoach in taking the DfT to court!
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on May 12, 2019 13:44:11 GMT
Seems Arriva are joining Stagecoach in taking the DfT to court! And some senior managers at Arriva and Stagecoach might end up building a good rapport, if you get my drift.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 16:50:01 GMT
Seems Arriva are joining Stagecoach in taking the DfT to court!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2019 15:19:17 GMT
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