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Post by snoggle on Jun 12, 2017 14:43:36 GMT
And now the purdah shackles have been removed the consultation machine has sprung back into life. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/stratford-gyratory/Looks a bit of a mess to me. The 69 and 308 are not rerouted at all. Everything else is rerouted but stopping arrangements on the Broadway look very poor to me. Users of the 276 will lose their stops altogether on the Broadway which seems daft to me given how busy they are. Unless the maps are wrong it won't even use the stops in Tramway Avenue. Interestingly the 25 and 425 will be put through the bus station in both directions which is a large increase in bus movements around the loop and implies a reshuffling of stops.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jun 12, 2017 17:21:55 GMT
*Facepalm* I see Totally failing London once again forgot some common sense. 308 was always one of the worst victims of the dumb road layout of Stratford Town Centre and what? They leave it as it is! And worst is the routes are grouped separately (rather than everything as a whole), and of course there is no field for 69/308, if one would want to contest the decision to not reroute them! Yet I will still do it, oh I will. How do 158 and 241 get a reroute and 69 + 308 don't? Once again people who likely don't even ride buses at all - in chargeā¦
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Post by redbus on Jun 12, 2017 17:53:20 GMT
Given the gyratory removal and the proposed revised rerouting / stopping arrangements, I wonder what, if any, will be the impact on journey times.
Agreed, it does seem a bit of a mess, but hopefully there's some logic somewhere!
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Post by T.R. on Jun 12, 2017 17:54:43 GMT
The routings make sense on paper but it may be different in practice. Would you say the 69/308 aren't being routed due to lack of roadspace or to preserve links?
(Still, at least the bus routing is being consulted on before the road changes are approved -- lesson learned from Archway?)
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Post by vjaska on Jun 12, 2017 18:12:08 GMT
This is what happens when you mess with a decent road system - granted not perfect but better than the mess it will become.
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Post by mondraker275 on Jun 12, 2017 18:45:20 GMT
And now the purdah shackles have been removed the consultation machine has sprung back into life. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/stratford-gyratory/Looks a bit of a mess to me. The 69 and 308 are not rerouted at all. Everything else is rerouted but stopping arrangements on the Broadway look very poor to me. Users of the 276 will lose their stops altogether on the Broadway which seems daft to me given how busy they are. Unless the maps are wrong it won't even use the stops in Tramway Avenue. Interestingly the 25 and 425 will be put through the bus station in both directions which is a large increase in bus movements around the loop and implies a reshuffling of stops. I see your point about the 276 and Tramway Avenue. I suspect that it will serve that stop as the only reason it does not serve it now is because it has the Broadway bus stop. I agree with the removal of the second Broadway stop, it will be unnecessary and save time, that will be lost serving the station. The big problem - I put all my money on all the Angel Lane buses to serve the bus station by turning right towards the bus station. The main reason was that I saw in the designs from Newham that the Theatre Royal Stratford bus stop was going to be removed. So I am very surprised by the 308. If that bus stop is closed, the 308 is effectively not serving the bus station or anywhere close to it, making the situation even worse than it is now. That cannot be part of the plans. That is a huge error. If either the 69 or the 257 was going to kept, surely it would the 257. The 257 already serves the bus station both ways as it terminates there. You would have a bus that takes people from the library to Stratford station. It does not make a difference really if the 257 towards Stratford goes via Great Eastern Road or the Broadway. Also if you kept the 257, you would still have sufficient service to deal with the evening Walthamstow Bound peak heading via Great Eastern Road.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 12, 2017 22:50:23 GMT
I see your point about the 276 and Tramway Avenue. I suspect that it will serve that stop as the only reason it does not serve it now is because it has the Broadway bus stop. I agree with the removal of the second Broadway stop, it will be unnecessary and save time, that will be lost serving the station. The big problem - I put all my money on all the Angel Lane buses to serve the bus station by turning right towards the bus station. The main reason was that I saw in the designs from Newham that the Theatre Royal Stratford bus stop was going to be removed. So I am very surprised by the 308. If that bus stop is closed, the 308 is effectively not serving the bus station or anywhere close to it, making the situation even worse than it is now. That cannot be part of the plans. That is a huge error. If either the 69 or the 257 was going to kept, surely it would the 257. The 257 already serves the bus station both ways as it terminates there. You would have a bus that takes people from the library to Stratford station. It does not make a difference really if the 257 towards Stratford goes via Great Eastern Road or the Broadway. Also if you kept the 257, you would still have sufficient service to deal with the evening Walthamstow Bound peak heading via Great Eastern Road. I suspect that there are concerns about bus stop capacity and road congestion if there are too many stops or all buses try to serve new stops opposite the bus station. There is also the famous TfL planning rule - drummed into my head by comments Mr Munster made about the T Hale changes - that TfL will always, if they can, opt for the shortest route in any change. This is driven by their modelling and concerns over increased costs. If they can avoid it they will want to avoid extending journey times hence why there is little change for routes on the Stratford - Plaistow axis. Changing the 241, 158 and 257 possibly gives a minor time saving compared to both today's and the future arrangement. I know the 25/425 arrangement goes against this rule but we are talking about huge numbers of people who interchange so there is probably a journey time saving for those people (no trudge through the shopping centre) that outweighs any increase for those travelling across Stratford. We don't know how the modelling is affected by assumed redistribution of traffic flows and the assumed traffic light phasing times. These will be absolutely crucial in a complex layout as envisaged for Stratford. There may even be issues about how much physical space for stops / shelters and pavements can actually be provided for the new stops opposite the bus station. You are talking about huge volumes of people at Stratford for a lot of the day so this stuff will be important. Of course TfL have just given us "bare bones" to deal with and no explanation as to why they've made the choices they have. Why do they assume everyone is thick and incapable of dealing with a bit of complexity?
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Post by sid on Jun 13, 2017 6:14:48 GMT
I do wonder about more buses serving the bus station and how well that will work in practice but other than a few minor issues it all looks positive to me, good riddance to that awful one way system.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 13, 2017 17:09:36 GMT
All this does look decent enough in the end, I've always wanted all routes to serve the bus station both directions, slightly irritated not seeing the 69 serve the bus station both ways. Many times I've found myself at Stratford Bus Station needing a 69 and the bus stops nowhere near the place. I think it's slightly less irritating the 308 it does serve Stratford City Bus Station in both directions. Finally we can see the 25 serving both stops at Stratford Bus Station in both directions.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 13, 2017 18:05:07 GMT
All this does look decent enough in the end, I've always wanted all routes to serve the bus station both directions, slightly irritated not seeing the 69 serve the bus station both ways. Many times I've found myself at Stratford Bus Station needing a 69 and the bus stops nowhere near the place. I think it's slightly less irritating the 308 it does serve Stratford City Bus Station in both directions. Finally we can see the 25 serving both stops at Stratford Bus Station in both directions. As it is a consultation then the obvious thing to say in response is to trade the 69's route for the 257's. They're the same frequency pretty much so bus movements don't change massively. I wonder if TfL don't want the 69 stopping opposite in case it causes people already waiting in the bus station for a 262 or 473 to try to dash across the road to get a 69 if it arrives first. Removing that potential safety risk would be a reasonable consideration given how people can react!! I understand the moans about the 308 but, as you say, it achieves its interchange with rail modes via Stratford City and bus to rail is probably the biggest interchange flow overall at Stratford so will figure highly in TfL's thinking. Having gone back to the consultation as I was writing this I've found all sorts of issues - the 257's maps don't come up if you click, it shows the 276! I have therefore E Mailed TfL with several points / observations as to what I think is a bit inconsistent or wrong in presentational terms. Wonder if they'll pay any attention?
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Post by mondraker275 on Jun 16, 2017 8:55:36 GMT
Used Stratford for first time since the consultation. There is no way the station is going to handle extra buses without some works being done at the station. For example extending the final stop inside the station and/or creating a third stop for the 25/425/276/D8 Bow bound. Even with this its not going to work well. Yesterday, there were terminating buses parked outside the station waiting to enter it. The new stop outside the station, will realistically only serve 158, 241, 257, so it does not ease the workload. I noticed the many errors as well, and the 257 link is now working. Although apparently, the 257 does not serve the library currently, and will not do in the proposal. And apparently, the 241 does not serve Theatre Royal Stratford or the Library, and does not so in the proposal. Why are we consulting on then....
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 16, 2017 10:19:43 GMT
Used Stratford for first time since the consultation. There is no way the station is going to handle extra buses without some works being done at the station. For example extending the final stop inside the station and/or creating a third stop for the 25/425/276/D8 Bow bound. Even with this its not going to work well. Yesterday, there were terminating buses parked outside the station waiting to enter it. The new stop outside the station, will realistically only serve 158, 241, 257, so it does not ease the workload. I noticed the many errors as well, and the 257 link is now working. Although apparently, the 257 does not serve the library currently, and will not do in the proposal. And apparently, the 241 does not serve Theatre Royal Stratford or the Library, and does not so in the proposal. Why are we consulting on then.... It's been an issue at Stratford for years where the bus station simply cannot cope with the demand it has to face. It barely copes in the peak with just a unidirectional flow of buses, so goodness knows how it will manage with double the amount of buses passing through it. You know it's quite serious when an alighting point suffers from overcrowding The 25, 86 (and soon 425s) stop is just not fit for purpose, it can just about hold 3 buses and the third bus usually ends up blocking the road leading to a bus jam forming. Not to mention the stop the 104, 238, 262 etc all serve suffers from overcrowding issues as well. (the 69 and 257s stop can also be terrible but that's outside the bus station). The locations of most of the stands also require all the routes which stand facing East to do a circle of the bus station which doesn't help traffic matters. When the 425 is extended it should free some space on the single stand facing west, route 257 could happily fit there as it's the only route along with the D8 which will be using the Eastern facing stops at Stratford Bus Station. One thing that might be useful in the consultation is actually routing all the Bow routes the long way around Stratford's gyratory once the works are done via the Grove and Great Eastern Road. They would then use the new stop outside Stratford Bus Station and can depart heading towards Bow. There is a lot of space there and it should hopefully allow for a very sizable stop, also preventing the need for the amount of 25s and 425s going through the bus station to double and gridlock the place.
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Post by joefrombow on Jun 17, 2017 0:46:49 GMT
If it's not broken don't fix it the money that could be spent on this could go on a whole range of other things that are needed .
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Post by sid on Jun 17, 2017 7:01:18 GMT
If it's not broken don't fix it the money that could be spent on this could go on a whole range of other things that are needed . That could be used as an argument against just about anything, the current one way system is awful and change is long overdue.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 17, 2017 10:56:46 GMT
If it's not broken don't fix it the money that could be spent on this could go on a whole range of other things that are needed . That could be used as an argument against just about anything, the current one way system is awful and change is long overdue. How is it awful? It works pretty fine and I know the area quite well.
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