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Post by vjaska on Jul 30, 2022 19:39:28 GMT
Not a bad idea about the 129/177 really as it would have made the Peckham end a bit more localised and given a Peckham/New Cross link to IKEA and the O2 and the 53 would have maintained a Woolwich and Plumstead to New Cross link (albeit) via a different route. Downside ofcourse would be the loss of links from Peckham to points beyond Charlton. As for the 177 despite worries it does seem to just about cope without the 180 to Greenwich. Iv observed it a few times at different times of day with more then a fee seats spare. People must have started using the train more over the past few years. I think the link to the O2 from Peckham would have probably made up somewhat for the loss of a link beyond Charlton - currently, it involves two buses or Overground then Jubilee to get there. It's certainly an interesting idea and far better than the ones usually suggested by others on here
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Post by cl54 on Jul 30, 2022 20:29:03 GMT
So after a few months of the changes, here are a few things I noticed. 129: There are still a few of them terminating at Greenwich for some reason, and when they do run to Lewisham, they’re empty, nowhere near as busy as when the 180 ran the route, whenever I’ve been at Lewisham the 108 still seems like the popular choice to North Greenwich, though this maybe because not many people know that the 129 is an alternative (can’t see how seeing as these were public) I read that the original plan was to send the 129 to Peckham with the 177 replacing the 180 to Lewisham and the 180 being restructured to NG to Erith, I wonder if this would have been the better idea? Even today I saw a 108 and a 129 and saw more people boarding the 108, then I took the 129 to Greenwich and could see why many wouldn’t choose this route from Lewisham as I saw the usual traffic down the Trafalgar Road, the 108 pretty much avoids this by going via Blackheath. 180: Tried this out a few times end to end, from Erith it seems to empty out at Abbey Wood and from Woolwich it’s not as busy since it basically follows the same route as the 472 which itself isn’t as nearly as busy as pre Liz Line, very few seem to use it end to end, the same could be said of yeh old 180 route but there seemed to be a good flow of passengers from Plumstead to Lewisham at least. 177: I would say it needs a couple of extra buses an hour, especially Saturdays, Greenwich is pretty much the Camden of SE London? Even weekdays it’s busy, especially between Woolwich and Greenwich 301: Fantastic, keeps going and going, I’d go further and extend to Charlton Riverside Shops it’s a new trunk route serving a unique corridor or better still, axe the 161 west of Woolwich and send the 301 to North Greenwich instead. Other observations: 244: I do wonder if they’ll make this double decked, but not essential right now 286: Seeing more and more double decks on this route, and it needs it, much like the 301 the 286 serves a unique corridor and is a great trunk route for South East London from the inner city to the out suburbs. 335: Again a great addition much like 301, there could be another route from Kidbrooke to the Charlton Shops though. A lot of people from the Eltham area use the 161 to get to the Charlton shops and North Greenwich. There is nowhere to stand the 301 at the Charlton shops. TfL refused permission to include a stand in the retail park for the 202 to be extended from the Royal Standard. The extension of the 301 is on hold until a new dual carriageway is built through the industrial area. It will stand about half a mile from the shops. I've seen the 244 full in General Gordon Square before the new Woolwich station stop most evenings this week.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 30, 2022 21:13:49 GMT
180: Tried this out a few times end to end, from Erith it seems to empty out at Abbey Wood and from Woolwich it’s not as busy since it basically follows the same route as the 472 which itself isn’t as nearly as busy as pre Liz Line, very few seem to use it end to end, the same could be said of the old 180 route but there seemed to be a good flow of passengers from Plumstead to Lewisham at least. 177: I would say it needs a couple of extra buses an hour, especially Saturdays, Greenwich is pretty much the Camden of SE London? Even weekdays it’s busy, especially between Woolwich and Greenwich 301: Fantastic, keeps going and going, I’d go further and extend to Charlton Riverside Shops it’s a new trunk route serving a unique corridor or better still, axe the 161 west of Woolwich and send the 301 to North Greenwich instead. . The eastern end of the 180 is popular in my experience. Seems very much to have two overlapping traffic flows - Erith to Woolwich via Abbey Wood, and Abbey Wood to North Greenwich. Where the 177 really seems to struggle is daytime on Sundays - I’d say a considerable uplift of frequency on that day is needed. Not sure I agree about replacing the 161 with the 301 - NG still has links with much of the 301’s catchment area. My personal preference would be to get rid of the 161 west of Woolwich, remove it from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and put it back on its old route via Academy Road, and instead recast the 126 to extend to North Greenwich, via Westmount Road, Rochester Way and current 161, converting it to double decks at the same time.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 30, 2022 21:22:12 GMT
So after a few months of the changes, here are a few things I noticed. Considering the low usage on the 129 at the Lewisham end, perhaps the routeing could be swapped with the 108? This would prioritise the higher capacity of DDs on the busier route via Blackheath. Alternatively, I completely agree with the proposals previously mentioned to swap the 129/177 beyond Greenwich - with the 177 then maintaining the 180's links to/from Lewisham. A further idea from this could be to restructure a few other routes along the Queens Road corridor. A revised 129 could extend further to operate between North Greenwich and Battersea Park (via the 436), providing new links towards Greenwich. The 436 would be withdrawn as a result. Then extend the 36 to Lewisham, but cut back at the other end to Paddington or Marble Arch. Another route would then take over the Queens Park section, which may not need the same high capacity of the rest of the 36.
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Post by route53 on Jul 31, 2022 6:49:04 GMT
So after a few months of the changes, here are a few things I noticed. Considering the low usage on the 129 at the Lewisham end, perhaps the routeing could be swapped with the 108? This would prioritise the higher capacity of DDs on the busier route via Blackheath. Alternatively, I completely agree with the proposals previously mentioned to swap the 129/177 beyond Greenwich - with the 177 then maintaining the 180's links to/from Lewisham. A further idea from this could be to restructure a few other routes along the Queens Road corridor. A revised 129 could extend further to operate between North Greenwich and Battersea Park (via the 436), providing new links towards Greenwich. The 436 would be withdrawn as a result. Then extend the 36 to Lewisham, but cut back at the other end to Paddington or Marble Arch. Another route would then take over the Queens Park section, which may not need the same high capacity of the rest of the 36. Not sure sending the 108 through Greenwich and East Greenwich would help it’s reliability the traffic on Trafalgar Road is often horrendous all times of the day. Your 129 idea sounds good, there needs to be more Cross South London links
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Post by route53 on Jul 31, 2022 7:04:04 GMT
180: Tried this out a few times end to end, from Erith it seems to empty out at Abbey Wood and from Woolwich it’s not as busy since it basically follows the same route as the 472 which itself isn’t as nearly as busy as pre Liz Line, very few seem to use it end to end, the same could be said of the old 180 route but there seemed to be a good flow of passengers from Plumstead to Lewisham at least. 177: I would say it needs a couple of extra buses an hour, especially Saturdays, Greenwich is pretty much the Camden of SE London? Even weekdays it’s busy, especially between Woolwich and Greenwich 301: Fantastic, keeps going and going, I’d go further and extend to Charlton Riverside Shops it’s a new trunk route serving a unique corridor or better still, axe the 161 west of Woolwich and send the 301 to North Greenwich instead. . The eastern end of the 180 is popular in my experience. Seems very much to have two overlapping traffic flows - Erith to Woolwich via Abbey Wood, and Abbey Wood to North Greenwich. Where the 177 really seems to struggle is daytime on Sundays - I’d say a considerable uplift of frequency on that day is needed. Not sure I agree about replacing the 161 with the 301 - NG still has links with much of the 301’s catchment area. My personal preference would be to get rid of the 161 west of Woolwich, remove it from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and put it back on its old route via Academy Road, and instead recast the 126 to extend to North Greenwich, via Westmount Road, Rochester Way and current 161, converting it to double decks at the same time. The 180 is more popular on the eastern end I’ve noticed meaning that my predictions of Erith users using it for the Liz line is correct, very few seem to want North Greenwich unless they’re using the Icon centre, but like I said the Jubilee line is no longer a big draw for those in the Woolwich and Abbey Wood/Thamesmead areas, the Blackheath, Eltham & Bexleyheath buses still carry a heavy load from NG, where as the 472 looks lighter these days, so the Liz Line has so far done a great job taking the pressure off the Jubilee line (and the DLR) and soon East London will see a similar effect on the Central line. The 177 needs at least three extra buses an hour in the peaks especially since it’s now carrying the extra load on its own , some days it’s fine but reducing the Woolwich-Greenwich corridor hasn’t helped, especially with the shoppers at Charlton getting on Extending the 126 might make the route unreliable and too lengthy , I’d have a 361 route from Chislehurst to Charlton Riverside which would replace the 161 by serving QE Hospital then would skip Woolwich entirely by following the route 380 after Artillery Place then from Woolwich Dockyard straight to NG serving Charlton Riverside en route
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Post by route53 on Jul 31, 2022 7:10:13 GMT
Not a bad idea about the 129/177 really as it would have made the Peckham end a bit more localised and given a Peckham/New Cross link to IKEA and the O2 and the 53 would have maintained a Woolwich and Plumstead to New Cross link (albeit) via a different route. Downside ofcourse would be the loss of links from Peckham to points beyond Charlton. As for the 177 despite worries it does seem to just about cope without the 180 to Greenwich. Iv observed it a few times at different times of day with more then a fee seats spare. People must have started using the train more over the past few years. The 53 between Woolwich and New Cross is faster than the 177 between the same areas. I find the 177 is odd some loads can be very busy and others can carry a light load then the next 177 will be busy again, the Trafalgar Road traffic doesn’t help much either, I support cycle lanes but having one one a narrow and busy road isn’t a good idea
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Post by greenboy on Jul 31, 2022 8:35:05 GMT
So after a few months of the changes, here are a few things I noticed. 129: There are still a few of them terminating at Greenwich for some reason, and when they do run to Lewisham, they’re empty, nowhere near as busy as when the 180 ran the route, whenever I’ve been at Lewisham the 108 still seems like the popular choice to North Greenwich, though this maybe because not many people know that the 129 is an alternative (can’t see how seeing as these were public) I read that the original plan was to send the 129 to Peckham with the 177 replacing the 180 to Lewisham and the 180 being restructured to NG to Erith, I wonder if this would have been the better idea? Even today I saw a 108 and a 129 and saw more people boarding the 108, then I took the 129 to Greenwich and could see why many wouldn’t choose this route from Lewisham as I saw the usual traffic down the Trafalgar Road, the 108 pretty much avoids this by going via Blackheath. 180: Tried this out a few times end to end, from Erith it seems to empty out at Abbey Wood and from Woolwich it’s not as busy since it basically follows the same route as the 472 which itself isn’t as nearly as busy as pre Liz Line, very few seem to use it end to end, the same could be said of yeh old 180 route but there seemed to be a good flow of passengers from Plumstead to Lewisham at least. 177: I would say it needs a couple of extra buses an hour, especially Saturdays, Greenwich is pretty much the Camden of SE London? Even weekdays it’s busy, especially between Woolwich and Greenwich 301: Fantastic, keeps going and going, I’d go further and extend to Charlton Riverside Shops it’s a new trunk route serving a unique corridor or better still, axe the 161 west of Woolwich and send the 301 to North Greenwich instead. Other observations: 244: I do wonder if they’ll make this double decked, but not essential right now 286: Seeing more and more double decks on this route, and it needs it, much like the 301 the 286 serves a unique corridor and is a great trunk route for South East London from the inner city to the out suburbs. 335: Again a great addition much like 301, there could be another route from Kidbrooke to the Charlton Shops though. I think the 129 to Peckham and the 177 to Lewisham would have been better although there are obviously swings and roundabouts. From what I've seen the 177 seems fine between Woolwich and Greenwich since the changes although it could do with a frequency increase at weekends when Greenwich is busy particularly when the weather is nice and the Camden Town of SE London is a good description. I suspect many people use the 108 between Lewisham and North Greenwich just because that's what they've always done and probably aren't even aware of the 129 alternative. I agree that the 286 should get double deckers although the 244 generally seems fine with single deckers from what I see of it.
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Post by cl54 on Jul 31, 2022 17:55:55 GMT
I think the 129 to Peckham and the 177 to Lewisham would have been better although there are obviously swings and roundabouts. From what I've seen the 177 seems fine between Woolwich and Greenwich since the changes although it could do with a frequency increase at weekends when Greenwich is busy particularly when the weather is nice and the Camden Town of SE London is a good description. I suspect many people use the 108 between Lewisham and North Greenwich just because that's what they've always done and probably aren't even aware of the 129 alternative. I agree that the 286 should get double deckers although the 244 generally seems fine with single deckers from what I see of it. What times are you seeing the 244? Peak times last week in Woolwich all seats occupied and lots of standing before the new Woolwich station shop.
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Post by cl54 on Jul 31, 2022 18:01:17 GMT
Where the 177 really seems to struggle is daytime on Sundays - I’d say a considerable uplift of frequency on that day is needed. Not sure I agree about replacing the 161 with the 301 - NG still has links with much of the 301’s catchment area. My personal preference would be to get rid of the 161 west of Woolwich, remove it from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and put it back on its old route via Academy Road, and instead recast the 126 to extend to North Greenwich, via Westmount Road, Rochester Way and current 161, converting it to double decks at the same time. Sunday shopping in the Charlton retail parks is proving very popular. Services have been thinned too far. Every 15 minutes on the 486 is not enough. The diversion of the 161 via the QE Hospital was requested to provide a link with Mottingham and Eltham.
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Post by ibus246 on Jul 31, 2022 18:10:15 GMT
Where the 177 really seems to struggle is daytime on Sundays - I’d say a considerable uplift of frequency on that day is needed. Not sure I agree about replacing the 161 with the 301 - NG still has links with much of the 301’s catchment area. My personal preference would be to get rid of the 161 west of Woolwich, remove it from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and put it back on its old route via Academy Road, and instead recast the 126 to extend to North Greenwich, via Westmount Road, Rochester Way and current 161, converting it to double decks at the same time. Sunday shopping in the Charlton retail parks is proving very popular. Services have been thinned too far. Every 15 minutes on the 486 is not enough. The diversion of the 161 via the QE Hospital was requested to provide a link with Mottingham and Eltham. You wouldn’t believe there was a so called cost of living crisis going on. Everywhere I go now at the weekend is packed full of shoppers, to an extent it is annoying
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Post by danorak on Jul 31, 2022 18:28:12 GMT
So after a few months of the changes, here are a few things I noticed. 129: There are still a few of them terminating at Greenwich for some reason, and when they do run to Lewisham, they’re empty, nowhere near as busy as when the 180 ran the route, whenever I’ve been at Lewisham the 108 still seems like the popular choice to North Greenwich, though this maybe because not many people know that the 129 is an alternative (can’t see how seeing as these were public) I read that the original plan was to send the 129 to Peckham with the 177 replacing the 180 to Lewisham and the 180 being restructured to NG to Erith, I wonder if this would have been the better idea? Even today I saw a 108 and a 129 and saw more people boarding the 108, then I took the 129 to Greenwich and could see why many wouldn’t choose this route from Lewisham as I saw the usual traffic down the Trafalgar Road, the 108 pretty much avoids this by going via Blackheath. 180: Tried this out a few times end to end, from Erith it seems to empty out at Abbey Wood and from Woolwich it’s not as busy since it basically follows the same route as the 472 which itself isn’t as nearly as busy as pre Liz Line, very few seem to use it end to end, the same could be said of yeh old 180 route but there seemed to be a good flow of passengers from Plumstead to Lewisham at least. 177: I would say it needs a couple of extra buses an hour, especially Saturdays, Greenwich is pretty much the Camden of SE London? Even weekdays it’s busy, especially between Woolwich and Greenwich 301: Fantastic, keeps going and going, I’d go further and extend to Charlton Riverside Shops it’s a new trunk route serving a unique corridor or better still, axe the 161 west of Woolwich and send the 301 to North Greenwich instead. Other observations: 244: I do wonder if they’ll make this double decked, but not essential right now 286: Seeing more and more double decks on this route, and it needs it, much like the 301 the 286 serves a unique corridor and is a great trunk route for South East London from the inner city to the out suburbs. 335: Again a great addition much like 301, there could be another route from Kidbrooke to the Charlton Shops though. I think the 129 to Peckham and the 177 to Lewisham would have been better although there are obviously swings and roundabouts. From what I've seen the 177 seems fine between Woolwich and Greenwich since the changes although it could do with a frequency increase at weekends when Greenwich is busy particularly when the weather is nice and the Camden Town of SE London is a good description. I suspect many people use the 108 between Lewisham and North Greenwich just because that's what they've always done and probably aren't even aware of the 129 alternative. I agree that the 286 should get double deckers although the 244 generally seems fine with single deckers from what I see of it. I would expect that most people on the 108 don't make it through to Lewisham but are alighting in Blackheath. If you were coming from Lewisham or points beyond, you'd almost certainly join the DLR at Lewisham rather than crawl through Blackwall Tunnel traffic to North Greenwich.
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Post by busman on Aug 1, 2022 9:27:29 GMT
Sunday shopping in the Charlton retail parks is proving very popular. Services have been thinned too far. Every 15 minutes on the 486 is not enough. The diversion of the 161 via the QE Hospital was requested to provide a link with Mottingham and Eltham. You wouldn’t believe there was a so called cost of living crisis going on. Everywhere I go now at the weekend is packed full of shoppers, to an extent it is annoying People still need food and clothes in a cost of living crisis. I would say that Charlton will be busier than ever due to the concentration of cheaper retailers across the two parks. Knowing people who are directly employed by retailers in that area, I think the area has been a great success for creating local jobs. Traffic is a pain though. The car park at Boots/Lidl is a nightmare. For me, it’s so far, so good with the SE London Lizzie Line bus changes. Early days still for the 129. I think there might be plans to send it through Silvertown tunnel in a few years. I would hope it gets sent somewhere more useful than Beckton though.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 1, 2022 11:25:12 GMT
I think the 129 to Peckham and the 177 to Lewisham would have been better although there are obviously swings and roundabouts. From what I've seen the 177 seems fine between Woolwich and Greenwich since the changes although it could do with a frequency increase at weekends when Greenwich is busy particularly when the weather is nice and the Camden Town of SE London is a good description. I suspect many people use the 108 between Lewisham and North Greenwich just because that's what they've always done and probably aren't even aware of the 129 alternative. I agree that the 286 should get double deckers although the 244 generally seems fine with single deckers from what I see of it. What times are you seeing the 244? Peak times last week in Woolwich all seats occupied and lots of standing before the new Woolwich station shop. Is that so surprising thou that an SD route has a standing load in the peaks. To me unless it's leaving large numbers behind then it's probably just about coping as once it leaves Woolwich it's soon going to start emptying out.
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Post by ronnie on Aug 1, 2022 12:51:34 GMT
You wouldn’t believe there was a so called cost of living crisis going on. Everywhere I go now at the weekend is packed full of shoppers, to an extent it is annoying People still need food and clothes in a cost of living crisis. I would say that Charlton will be busier than ever due to the concentration of cheaper retailers across the two parks. Knowing people who are directly employed by retailers in that area, I think the area has been a great success for creating local jobs. Traffic is a pain though. The car park at Boots/Lidl is a nightmare. For me, it’s so far, so good with the SE London Lizzie Line bus changes. Early days still for the 129. I think there might be plans to send it through Silvertown tunnel in a few years. I would hope it gets sent somewhere more useful than Beckton though. Indeed and don’t forget parking is free, you have Lidl, aldi, Asda, Sainsburys, M&S, Primark, and a bunch of other affordable retailers. This isn’t westfields with extortionate parking. What the place needs is a broader run so a bus lane can be added, esp heading towards North Greenwich (the current one runs out at Lidl)
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