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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 2, 2022 14:28:12 GMT
TBF, he did say “a rough rule of thumb” rather than it being exactly £120,000 I am more inclined to believe snowman figures are nearer the true figure. I would have said £100k+, but no idea on the exact figure. I did a rough calacution of an order for Wright buses for Ireland and 800 of them was for £482m making an individual cost of £602k. Ofcourse there are bilk discounts etc and we don't know what extra features those particular ones have but id put the cost of an electric DD still at around £450 to 500k.
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 2, 2022 14:29:51 GMT
I am more inclined to believe snowman figures are nearer the true figure. I would have said £100k+, but no idea on the exact figure. I did a rough calacution of an order for Wright buses for Ireland and 800 of them was for £482m making an individual cost of £602k. Ofcourse there are bilk discounts etc and we don't know what extra features those particular ones have but id put the cost of an electric DD still at around £450 to 500k. And an electric single deck? Cost of electric buses is crazy! When London was buying diesels, it was about £120k for an SD and £200k for DD. We then went hybrid for DD at about £300k a pop! Electric is just crazy prices!
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 2, 2022 15:13:15 GMT
I did a rough calacution of an order for Wright buses for Ireland and 800 of them was for £482m making an individual cost of £602k. Ofcourse there are bilk discounts etc and we don't know what extra features those particular ones have but id put the cost of an electric DD still at around £450 to 500k. And an electric single deck? Cost of electric buses is crazy! When London was buying diesels, it was about £120k for an SD and £200k for DD. We then went hybrid for DD at about £300k a pop! Electric is just crazy prices! The battery costs are huge.
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Post by snowman on Aug 2, 2022 15:31:50 GMT
And an electric single deck? Cost of electric buses is crazy! When London was buying diesels, it was about £120k for an SD and £200k for DD. We then went hybrid for DD at about £300k a pop! Electric is just crazy prices! The battery costs are huge. which is why normally have options on how big a battery pack is required. Bigger batteries cost tens of thousands more Double decks tend to be limited by weight (unless 3axle), but some single decks have bigger batteries to cope with long duties, so the difference in cost depends on how big a battery is fitted. I am sure someone said need 15-20% bigger motors if want similar performance from a double deck as a single deck due to extra weight and drag.
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Post by cl54 on Aug 2, 2022 16:28:20 GMT
TBF, he did say “a rough rule of thumb” rather than it being exactly £120,000 I am more inclined to believe snowman figures are nearer the true figure. I would have said £100k+, but no idea on the exact figure. Doesn't really matter if overall costs are counted including charging and maintaining extra buses. Extra drivers do cost and a double decker carries more people.
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 2, 2022 16:41:09 GMT
I am more inclined to believe snowman figures are nearer the true figure. I would have said £100k+, but no idea on the exact figure. Doesn't really matter if overall costs are counted including charging and maintaining extra buses. Extra drivers do cost and a double decker carries more people. So you are sanctioning decker conversions and reducing frequencies? Sure people would prefer a more frequent single decker service than a less frequent double deck service, maybe to a level which becomes unattractive to customers, meaning single deckers will suffice on the lower frequency. This is the exact opposite policy of what saw bus numbers boom in the 90s, early 2000s. Small but often. The cycle will eventually complete, and the fad for smaller buses will return. Why do you think the Strata has proved popular with smaller operators. Considerably cheaper to buy and operate than an E200.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 2, 2022 19:57:03 GMT
Doesn't really matter if overall costs are counted including charging and maintaining extra buses. Extra drivers do cost and a double decker carries more people. So you are sanctioning decker conversions and reducing frequencies? Sure people would prefer a more frequent single decker service than a less frequent double deck service, maybe to a level which becomes unattractive to customers, meaning single deckers will suffice on the lower frequency. This is the exact opposite policy of what saw bus numbers boom in the 90s, early 2000s. Small but often. The cycle will eventually complete, and the fad for smaller buses will return. Why do you think the Strata has proved popular with smaller operators. Considerably cheaper to buy and operate than an E200. It all depends on how reduced the frequency is - some double decker conversions previously have occurred with a small frequency decrease to balance out capacity. I don't think, for example, anyone would be majorly put off if their every 10 minute route dropped to every 12 minute but gained a capacity increase via double deck comversion. Context is key here - it's not black and white Bus numbers boomed because of investment into the network on a wider scale such as replacement of tired old shelters, better information at stops, newer low floor vehicles, new routes, better frequencies, etc - if it was down to the single decker obsession of the 90's, it would of been far more widescale than it was and there were good reasons why routes like the 28 & 31 didn't hold onto those single deckers either. I don't see any appetite for smaller buses returning and thank goodness too - running loads of little minibuses isn't going to attract people back but making sure the service is reliable and fast might be a start.
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Post by rj131 on Aug 3, 2022 12:05:03 GMT
So you are sanctioning decker conversions and reducing frequencies? Sure people would prefer a more frequent single decker service than a less frequent double deck service, maybe to a level which becomes unattractive to customers, meaning single deckers will suffice on the lower frequency. This is the exact opposite policy of what saw bus numbers boom in the 90s, early 2000s. Small but often. The cycle will eventually complete, and the fad for smaller buses will return. Why do you think the Strata has proved popular with smaller operators. Considerably cheaper to buy and operate than an E200. It all depends on how reduced the frequency is - some double decker conversions previously have occurred with a small frequency decrease to balance out capacity. I don't think, for example, anyone would be majorly put off if their every 10 minute route dropped to every 12 minute but gained a capacity increase via double deck comversion. Context is key here - it's not black and white Bus numbers boomed because of investment into the network on a wider scale such as replacement of tired old shelters, better information at stops, newer low floor vehicles, new routes, better frequencies, etc - if it was down to the single decker obsession of the 90's, it would of been far more widescale than it was and there were good reasons why routes like the 28 & 31 didn't hold onto those single deckers either. I don't see any appetite for smaller buses returning and thank goodness too - running loads of little minibuses isn't going to attract people back but making sure the service is reliable and fast might be a start. Not to mention didn’t the bendy bus routes get frequency reductions when they were introduced because of the huge capacity they can carry? They massively increased ridership too. (Although maybe because they attracted so many fare dodgers)
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Post by cl54 on Aug 3, 2022 14:04:05 GMT
Doesn't really matter if overall costs are counted including charging and maintaining extra buses. Extra drivers do cost and a double decker carries more people. So you are sanctioning decker conversions and reducing frequencies? Sure people would prefer a more frequent single decker service than a less frequent double deck service, maybe to a level which becomes unattractive to customers, meaning single deckers will suffice on the lower frequency. This is the exact opposite policy of what saw bus numbers boom in the 90s, early 2000s. Small but often. The cycle will eventually complete, and the fad for smaller buses will return. Why do you think the Strata has proved popular with smaller operators. Considerably cheaper to buy and operate than an E200. With due respect I am not suggesting a reduction in the number of buses. Somebody else suggested buying single deck electric buses was cheaper. This would require more buses not less. I'm saying same number of buses but double deckers.
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 3, 2022 14:08:37 GMT
So you are sanctioning decker conversions and reducing frequencies? Sure people would prefer a more frequent single decker service than a less frequent double deck service, maybe to a level which becomes unattractive to customers, meaning single deckers will suffice on the lower frequency. This is the exact opposite policy of what saw bus numbers boom in the 90s, early 2000s. Small but often. The cycle will eventually complete, and the fad for smaller buses will return. Why do you think the Strata has proved popular with smaller operators. Considerably cheaper to buy and operate than an E200. With due respect I am not suggesting a reduction in the number of buses. Somebody else suggested buying single deck electric buses was cheaper. This would require more buses not less. I'm saying same number of buses but double deckers. If you have the same number of buses, operating singles decks will be cheaper to purchase and operate?
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Post by evergreenadam on Aug 5, 2022 8:29:06 GMT
I fully support the double decking of routes when the demand justifies it. However I have noticed that modern double deckers have very few step free access seats on the lower deck, which can be a problem on routes carrying large numbers of elderly or disabled passengers, for example to my local hospital. Even if younger able bodied passengers give up their seats there are still not enough accessible seats. In this regard single deckers with up to 10 level access seats are much more suited to an older and more infirm demographic.
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Post by cl54 on Aug 5, 2022 9:42:56 GMT
With due respect I am not suggesting a reduction in the number of buses. Somebody else suggested buying single deck electric buses was cheaper. This would require more buses not less. I'm saying same number of buses but double deckers. If you have the same number of buses, operating singles decks will be cheaper to purchase and operate? As I said up thread the cost difference is marginal and you don't leave people behind. A sure fire way to put people off using buses.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 5, 2022 12:37:44 GMT
I fully support the double decking of routes when the demand justifies it. However I have noticed that modern double deckers have very few step free access seats on the lower deck, which can be a problem on routes carrying large numbers of elderly or disabled passengers, for example to my local hospital. Even if younger able bodied passengers give up their seats there are still not enough accessible seats. In this regard single deckers with up to 10 level access seats are much more suited to an older and more infirm demographic. That's a good point and another thing to consider is how many people will actually go upstairs on routes like the 244 where most people are making short journeys.
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Post by twobellstogo on Mar 28, 2023 11:30:12 GMT
I learned something the week just gone. An awful lot of workers use the 180 from Erith to the factories and warehouses in and around Church Manorway. Clearly TfL found some untapped potential there!
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Post by route53 on Mar 28, 2023 11:59:28 GMT
I learned something the week just gone. An awful lot of workers use the 180 from Erith to the factories and warehouses in and around Church Manorway. Clearly TfL found some untapped potential there! That’s basically all that’s happened to the 180, that and the fact that people in Erith use it to get to Abbey Wood for the Liz line, aside from that the 129/180 are a bit of a damp squib for the most part, the predicted hordes of Erith commuters heading to NG hasn’t happened and between Woolwich & NG it’s interchangeable between the 472 and the 161, it’s certainly a lot emptier between Abbey Wood & Woolwich As for the 129, the 108 is still the popular choice to travel between Lewisham and NG
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