Holiday observations

[busaholic]

Jul 28, 2018 13:58:17 GMT sid said:

Jul 28, 2018 12:42:25 GMT busaholic said:

As a very young child I watched from my grandmother's flat the trams at Eltham Church tram stop, situated in the middle of the road! Even a 3 and 4 year old who loved the old beasts could see that it was no longer tenable in the early 1950s. Obviously the Czechs see things differently!

And so do the Aussies, this arrangement works perfectly well in Melbourne.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeHPrYxKCc

I suspect it's only in 'nanny state' Britain this would be deemed unsafe?

 I don't think we were a 'nanny state' at the time trams were being withdrawn in this country. What we were was a small (geographically) country coming out of many years of wartime austerity, but still subject to rationing of all sorts of things, including petrol. Once the latter went, people wanted the new-found freedom of owning their own transport, where possible, which for families meant cars. Politicians of all stripes recognised this, particularly the Conservatives who were in power for much of the time in question. Segregated tramway running was never a feature of London trams (the principal exception being the very European Kingsway Subway) nor in many towns and cities.  The 'easy' thing to do was to get rid of trams to advance the cause of the car, rather than think of ways of integrating the tram. I'm not saying I think this was right, just that it was inevitable. 'Modernisation' would have been the call, however hollow or meaningless in practice. As for trams disgorging passengers into the middle of roads in the present day, I'd love to hear what the operators of trams in Croydon, Nottingham and Manchester had to say on the subject, given the daily problems they face with cars making incursions onto tracks, jumping lights, etc. I suspect there would be multiple casualties over the course of a year. Why does this apparently not occur in other countries? Well, I'd suggest we have laxer laws on bad driving, a lack of traffic policing and, actually, a more selfish ''me.me'' attitude amongst the young.

[vjaska]

Jul 28, 2018 17:18:56 GMT busaholic said:

Jul 28, 2018 13:58:17 GMT sid said:

And so do the Aussies, this arrangement works perfectly well in Melbourne.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeHPrYxKCc

I suspect it's only in 'nanny state' Britain this would be deemed unsafe?

 I don't think we were a 'nanny state' at the time trams were being withdrawn in this country. What we were was a small (geographically) country coming out of many years of wartime austerity, but still subject to rationing of all sorts of things, including petrol. Once the latter went, people wanted the new-found freedom of owning their own transport, where possible, which for families meant cars. Politicians of all stripes recognised this, particularly the Conservatives who were in power for much of the time in question. Segregated tramway running was never a feature of London trams (the principal exception being the very European Kingsway Subway) nor in many towns and cities.  The 'easy' thing to do was to get rid of trams to advance the cause of the car, rather than think of ways of integrating the tram. I'm not saying I think this was right, just that it was inevitable. 'Modernisation' would have been the call, however hollow or meaningless in practice. As for trams disgorging passengers into the middle of roads in the present day, I'd love to hear what the operators of trams in Croydon, Nottingham and Manchester had to say on the subject, given the daily problems they face with cars making incursions onto tracks, jumping lights, etc. I suspect there would be multiple casualties over the course of a year. Why does this apparently not occur in other countries? Well, I'd suggest we have laxer laws on bad driving, a lack of traffic policing and, actually, a more selfish ''me.me'' attitude amongst the young.

I could imagine the carnage in Croydon if trams started depositing people in the middle of the roads - most people don’t even hear a tram coming & the George Street/Park Lane has seen many near misses although it is a mess of a junction to be fair.

[sid]

Jul 28, 2018 19:11:27 GMT vjaska said:

Jul 28, 2018 17:18:56 GMT busaholic said:

 I don't think we were a 'nanny state' at the time trams were being withdrawn in this country. What we were was a small (geographically) country coming out of many years of wartime austerity, but still subject to rationing of all sorts of things, including petrol. Once the latter went, people wanted the new-found freedom of owning their own transport, where possible, which for families meant cars. Politicians of all stripes recognised this, particularly the Conservatives who were in power for much of the time in question. Segregated tramway running was never a feature of London trams (the principal exception being the very European Kingsway Subway) nor in many towns and cities.  The 'easy' thing to do was to get rid of trams to advance the cause of the car, rather than think of ways of integrating the tram. I'm not saying I think this was right, just that it was inevitable. 'Modernisation' would have been the call, however hollow or meaningless in practice. As for trams disgorging passengers into the middle of roads in the present day, I'd love to hear what the operators of trams in Croydon, Nottingham and Manchester had to say on the subject, given the daily problems they face with cars making incursions onto tracks, jumping lights, etc. I suspect there would be multiple casualties over the course of a year. Why does this apparently not occur in other countries? Well, I'd suggest we have laxer laws on bad driving, a lack of traffic policing and, actually, a more selfish ''me.me'' attitude amongst the young.

I could imagine the carnage in Croydon if trams started depositing people in the middle of the roads - most people don’t even hear a tram coming & the George Street/Park Lane has seen many near misses although it is a mess of a junction to be fair.

If it had always been the case, as it has in Melbourne and many other cities, I'm sure it would work just fine.

[busaholic]

Jul 28, 2018 19:32:44 GMT sid said:

Jul 28, 2018 19:11:27 GMT vjaska said:

I could imagine the carnage in Croydon if trams started depositing people in the middle of the roads - most people don’t even hear a tram coming & the George Street/Park Lane has seen many near misses although it is a mess of a junction to be fair.

If it had always been the case, as it has in Melbourne and many other cities, I'm sure it would work just fine.

We'll never know. thankfully. Lord Ashfield's plans to withdraw all trams and, in many cases, replace them with the much more flexible trolleybus were thwarted by the advent of World War 2, otherwise I for one would never have had the chance to experience them, albeit only when I was allowed!

[sid]

Jul 28, 2018 20:12:01 GMT busaholic said:

Jul 28, 2018 19:32:44 GMT sid said:

If it had always been the case, as it has in Melbourne and many other cities, I'm sure it would work just fine.

We'll never know. thankfully. Lord Ashfield's plans to withdraw all trams and, in many cases, replace them with the much more flexible trolleybus were thwarted by the advent of World War 2, otherwise I for one would never have had the chance to experience them, albeit only when I was allowed!

Ironic how things have gone full circle, I've been on quite a few tradition tram networks in other countries that operate perfectly safely, my favourite would have to be Lisbon with trams threading their way through some amazingly narrow streets.

[busaholic]

Jul 28, 2018 21:15:12 GMT sid said:

Jul 28, 2018 20:12:01 GMT busaholic said:

We'll never know. thankfully. Lord Ashfield's plans to withdraw all trams and, in many cases, replace them with the much more flexible trolleybus were thwarted by the advent of World War 2, otherwise I for one would never have had the chance to experience them, albeit only when I was allowed!

Ironic how things have gone full circle, I've been on quite a few tradition tram networks in other countries that operate perfectly safely, my favourite would have to be Lisbon with trams threading their way through some amazingly narrow streets.

I wouldn't say they've gone full circle, though, in that I'm unaware of anywhere in the world which has introduced trams within the last twenty years and uses such methods, and probably not even 'traditional' systems on new routes/extensions, though there may have been isolated examples. I'm not knocking Lisbon and the rest and realise they work perfectly well in most cases. I've been on very few of them myself, and probably won't do now:to be honest, although the spirit's willing I'd find it a job with the combination of dash to the middle of the road and hauling myself up the steps! (Believe me, I've watched hours of films on tram trips around the world).

[sid]

Jul 29, 2018 11:34:34 GMT busaholic said:

Jul 28, 2018 21:15:12 GMT sid said:

Ironic how things have gone full circle, I've been on quite a few tradition tram networks in other countries that operate perfectly safely, my favourite would have to be Lisbon with trams threading their way through some amazingly narrow streets.

I wouldn't say they've gone full circle, though, in that I'm unaware of anywhere in the world which has introduced trams within the last twenty years and uses such methods, and probably not even 'traditional' systems on new routes/extensions, though there may have been isolated examples. I'm not knocking Lisbon and the rest and realise they work perfectly well in most cases. I've been on very few of them myself, and probably won't do now:to be honest, although the spirit's willing I'd find it a job with the combination of dash to the middle of the road and hauling myself up the steps! (Believe me, I've watched hours of films on tram trips around the world).

Obviously modern day systems would be built differently as indeed newer sections of the Melbourne network are but that certainly doesn't mean the older systems should be closed down forthwith. I certainly never saw any problems with middle of the road stops when I was in Melbourne.

[ronnie]

Jul 28, 2018 12:15:56 GMT 725DYE said:

Just got back home from a fantastic week in Prague, Czechia. Simply a beautiful and characteristic city! Ive always wanted to move to Australia one day but could now honestly also see myself moving to Prague as well. The old town is full of such activity, the shops are brilliant and everything is so cheap .


I didn't use any public transport at all - I always say its better to walk around the centre of a city to soak up the culture. Especially in London where the buses are too slow and the tube is too hot . One observation of Prague (and I guess any other similar European city such as Budapest) is that the trams are bloody dangerous! There is literally no organisation of how they operate at all. Sometimes they're segregated from the main traffic, sometimes integrated. Sometimes they operate on the right, sometimes the left. I even walked past a stop where the tram stopped in the middle of the road in line with the pavement 


One tram almost ran over two of my friends because the bell system made no sense to us at all. These trams simply do not stop for anything! Regardless of this its been a wonderful week and glad to have missed the sweltering heat in London  

I guess it also boils down to experience. The locals would have seen it for a number of years so are perfectly attuned with what gets priority, how to board and unboard safely etc. And those teams really don’t stop - they make it a point to enforce their priority!

I must say Prague trams are great - have used them the 2 times I have been there and they feel good.

On a side note, I also loved the trams in Milan (used them a lot when I was studying there - both the old and new ones are great).

[busoccultation]

Spent 2 days in Paris with ridden various Metro trains (I've used Lines 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9 & 10) and a bus of which was on a Route 30 on a Irisbus Citelis. Though I didn't used any RER trains if anyone is interested.

[snowman]

Currently in South America for first time in my life, in Quito, Ecuador

The geography means city stretched miles North - South, but not that wide as mountains to the sides, and to East deep ravines. There are 3 main North - South routes, one a trolleybus, and two others, diesel worked, one of which uses double articulated buses (first time I have ever seen those), in the rush hour they get crush loaded, must carry 200+ passengers and they storm up hills.

The fleet is all high floor, but the bus stops on these main routes have high platforms like a tramway, and buses have drop down bridging plates to give level access. There are lots of other buses that cross these and are high floor with steps, these are all painted dark blue and seem to have Operator names painted on them so must be some sort of franchised routes.

There is an old city (UNESCO protected) and the newer city extensions, the artics run through parts of the old city where roads are only single lane. Parts of this have recently been pedestrianised, so some buses seem to use roads that go up / down the steep hills, Some of these are about 1 in 5 (Comparing hill to block work on buildings)

There is a new north - south metro under construction, due to open in about year, (although some parts behind schedule)

Definitely worth visiting, the city is high, 8000 feet,

If anyone knows what engines are in those double artics, to let them accelerate up hills so fast. They make London buses seem so slow.

[snoggle]

Aug 4, 2018 9:13:40 GMT snowman said:

Currently in South America for first time in my life, in Quito, Ecuador

The geography means city stretched miles North - South, but not that wide as mountains to the sides, and to East deep ravines. There are 3 main North - South routes, one a trolleybus, and two others, diesel worked, one of which uses double articulated buses (first time I have ever seen those), in the rush hour they get crush loaded, must carry 200+ passengers and they storm up hills.

The fleet is all high floor, but the bus stops on these main routes have high platforms like a tramway, and buses have drop down bridging plates to give level access. There are lots of other buses that cross these and are high floor with steps, these are all painted dark blue and seem to have Operator names painted on them so must be some sort of franchised routes.

There is an old city (UNESCO protected) and the newer city extensions, the artics run through parts of the old city where roads are only single lane. Parts of this have recently been pedestrianised, so some buses seem to use roads that go up / down the steep hills, Some of these are about 1 in 5 (Comparing hill to block work on buildings)

There is a new north - south metro under construction, due to open in about year, (although some parts behind schedule)

Definitely worth visiting, the city is high, 8000 feet,

If anyone knows what engines are in those double artics, to let them accelerate up hills so fast. They make London buses seem so slow.

Would be nice to see some snaps when you get back - assuming you have some spare time to take some!

Info about Bus Rapid Transit in Quito --> brtdata.org/location/latin_america/ecuador/quito

Quito Transport website --> www.trolebus.gob.ec/

Press release about Volvo double bendy buses --> www.volvobuses.com/en-en/news/2016/may/volvo-delivers-80-bi-articulated-buses.html

The Volvos are B340M - not heard of that type before. More (spanish language) info --> www.volvobuses.co/es-co/our-offering/buses/b340m.html


Launch of new double bendy buses



News clip about bendy buses in narrow Quito streets. Some of the turns are quite incredible!!

[NWBusConnoisseur]

I was in Austria myself recently but only for a connecting flight. I have noticed that buses that transport passengers from the gate to the plane have the same motor as older Plaxton Pointers! Takes me back to NW days at Metroline.

However, I am currently in Pristina, Kosovo, where there are not many bus routes but there are still quite a few things of note.

The buses here are very frequent to make up for the lack of routes and are rammed most of the time. A couple of routes use brand new Iveco Crossways which are air conditioned and very comfortable and one route uses a mixture of articulated and normal Mercedes Citaro buses.

However, many buses are donated from Germany and Scandinavia (with little to no change in livery or seating) and can be very hot during this time of the year. I'm not too sure about the specific models but many are old Mercedes or Iveco buses with some dating the 1970s! They are fun to ride on but very hot.

Overall, Pristina's buses are interesting but the network is poorly managed. Tickets can only be bought on the bus using cash and there is a member of staff who tracks who gets on and approaches them once they are seated to sell the ticket. This is incredibly unreliable. In addition, there is no timetable and buses literally just drive around.

[N230UD]

I've just got back from Prague myself - yes the trams probably arn't as safe as a completely modern low-floor system with station platforms at every stop, but I wouldn't call Prague's trams dangerous - it all seems to work ok, and locals are able to use common sense.

If there are any classic tram fans here, Prague has plenty of Tatra T3 types in service on most routes - i'd say these trams are as iconic as the London Routemaster for Central/Eastern Europe. There are also some 1990s Tatras, and also many modern (and in my eyes boring!) low-floor Skoda trams. Line 23 has the oldest un-refurbished Tatras, and there is also a museum route 41 at the weekends.

The buses largely just 'fill the gaps' of the tram/Metro network as is common in Europe, and were not hugely interesting. Mostly modern low-floor Czech-built SOR rigid and articulated vehicles, but still some old 1990s step-entrance Karosa vehicles about. I've just found out that a brand new trolleybus route opened last year after a gap of 45 years, on a small hourly route to the east of the city, but didn't know that at the time.

The city centre was a bit overwhelming with tourists (selfie-sticks galore!), and I made trips outside of the city centre where the contrast can be huge, with Communist-era tower blocks and the like. I always enjoy travelling about on public transport, and to areas away from tourists, to see the 'real' city, but definitely also enjoy walking about the city centres.

After Prague, I caught a 4-hour train (for £11!!) to Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia. Although the city is less well-maintained than Prague (but has a beautiful old town), their transport rolling stock is more modern. The trams are mostly modern Skodas, with Tatras only appearing on Line 5. 'Classic' Tatras similar to Prague are now rare but seem to appear at peak times. They also have trolleybuses, which feels like such a novelty being from the UK. They are all modern SOR vehicles powered by Skoda, rigid and articulated. The trolleys mostly work the hilly routes, giving some fantastic views. Sadly the classic Skoda trolleybuses are now all out of service.
With buses, they are mostly SOR vehicles to the same design as the trolleys, but also some Solaris vehicles (including some tri-axle CNG-powered ones on route 32), and also a few quad-axle articulated Mercedes Citaros. I didn't use the buses much as concentrated on trams and trolleys, but I did try city route 901 which actually goes into Austria!

From Bratislava, you can travel to Vienna in just an hour by train, which is an incredibly grand city contrasting to Bratislava, and there are still some old step-entrance trams in service there too, but mostly modern low-floor trams.

I'm currently making the most of Eastern Europe as I can, as the transport networks are mostly modernising, and the classic trams and buses are becoming very rare and quite quickly it seems!

One thing I should say though - it is good that the transport networks are modernising - Classic Tatra trams and step-entrance buses are awful for elderly people and impossible for many disabled people. I am slightly disabled myself, and find the older transport fairly difficult. Transport is for the public and not really to keep enthusiasts happy! It is still really sad to see the older stuff go though. 

[TB141]

Blimey those T3 trams are positively invincible. I remember Riga having a large fleet of them when I visited a few years back. In terms of trams stopping in the middle of the road, as others have said this is common practice in many countries, and even lives on in parts of the old East Berlin. Local traffic laws dictate that motorists stop when a tram is unloading, and from what I’ve seen this is very well adhered to.

[wirewiper]

More prosaically, I am just back from a long weekend visiting an elderly relative in Mablethorpe, Lincolnshire.

The main route is the hourly InterConnect 59 (formerly 9) between Skegness, Mablethorpe and Louth, which is operated by Stagecoach East Midlands. As the route is over 50km long its is registered in two sections with guaranteed connection at Mablethorpe - buses depart each end showing "Mablethorpe / connection for ....." and change to a plain destination at Mablethorpe. There is a two-hourly Sunday service from April to October, between Mablethorpe and Skegness only. Most of the buses are East Lancs Vyking-bodied Volvo B7TLs that were new to Lincolnshire Road Car when it was owned by the (Yorkshire) Traction Group, in a mixture of standard Stagecoach livery and the two-tone purple InterConnect version, although some newer Scania N230UD/ADL Enviro400s in InterConnect livery also appear.

Hunt's Coaches of Alford operate the irregular and infrequent 96 (also 96a and 96x variants) between Mablethorpe, Sutton-on-Sea, Alford and Spilsby; this is operated under contract to Lincolnshire County Council and was taken over from Brylaine Travel of Boston last year. Journeys also operate on a loop via Golf Road within Mablethorpe which takes in much of the town's outer housing areas. Of interest is that Hunt's has a couple of ex-CT Plus East Lancs Esteem-bodied Darts and these are often used on the 96. Hunt's main route is the 7 which operates between Alford and Skegness via Chapel St. Leonard's and Ingoldmells. This appears to fit within the local Stagecoach route numbering in the Skegness area which suggests it was one of their routes previously.

This year PC Coaches are operating a daily seasonal service linking Mablethorpe with the Holiday Parks and the Seal Sanctuary to the north of the town. Usual performer is a long-wheelbase Optare Versa with pirate-themed vinyls. Certain journeys are extended to and from Sutton-on-Sea.

Local coach operator Grayscroft has a depot in the Town Centre at Victoria Avenue and operates school buses and also market-day services from Mablethorpe, including a Tuesday run to Grimsby and a Tuesday/Friday run to Louth via Theddlethorpe, Saltfleetby & Grimoldby. 

National Express has a daily 449 service between Mablethorpe and London via Skegness, Boston, Spalding and Peterborough. The coach leaves Mablethorpe at 08.40 (08.20 in high Summer) and arrives in London at 14.50, whilst in the return direction the coach leaves London at 14.00 and arrives in Mablethorpe at 20.00.

Lastly, there is a CallConnect demand-responsive minibus operation based on Mablethorpe, with buses operating in an area bounded by Chapel St Leonard's to the south, South Somercoates to the north and Alford to the west. Local journeys can also be made within Mablethorpe and Alford, and Callconnect links up with the 59 and 96 in Mablethorpe.