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Post by kmkcheng on Jan 18, 2018 6:36:52 GMT
With the 223, I wouldn’t have thought The Avenue would be the problem. I would say it’s more likely the South Kenton area which is more narrower along Carlton Avenue East and Windermere Avenue
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jan 18, 2018 7:34:49 GMT
The W16's low bridge (other than the one at the hospital) is on Hainault Road in Leytonstone whereas it's the W15 that passes under the low bridge on Grove Green Road. The only low bridge on the W19 is the one at the hospital  Hold on I'm confused - although admittedly I may have gotten road names mixed up, what I know for sure is that W16 definitely does not serve Whipps Cross Hospital. It starts at Leytonstone Station (where 339 also does, and W15+19 pass), and goes past Leyton Midland Road station and Bakers Arms. |
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Post by TA1 on Jan 18, 2018 7:46:23 GMT
The W16's low bridge (other than the one at the hospital) is on Hainault Road in Leytonstone whereas it's the W15 that passes under the low bridge on Grove Green Road. The only low bridge on the W19 is the one at the hospital Hold on I'm confused - although admittedly I may have gotten road names mixed up, what I know for sure is that W16 definitely does not serve Whipps Cross Hospital. It starts at Leytonstone Station (where 339 also does, and W15+19 pass), and goes past Leyton Midland Road station and Bakers Arms. Hainault Road is the road where the W16 diverges left towards Leyton High Road, there is a low bridge on Hainault Road which carries the GOBLIN to the east of Leyton midland road station platforms. |
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Post by enviroPB on Jan 18, 2018 8:14:24 GMT
I can't believe we are debating whether the notorious Whipps Cross walkway is too low for DDs or not. It really is! Here's a photo Gellico took when we were spotting together clearly showing there is no way a decker could squeeze underneath: flic.kr/p/21HavZrIn addition, W19 and W15 also pass under an additional 3.9m (?) low bridge near Leytonstone station.W16 passes underneath a low one at Grove Green Road. A rail rep managed to deroof itself there not so long ago. I still think you are too lenient on deckers on narrow roads or those with trees - e.g. if you did U10 you'd see why there is no a DD could do it Huh? Route W19 only passes that low bridge in Whipps Cross. There is no other overhead bridge of any kind on the route. I let @metroman 's mistake with the W13 go uncorrected yesterday and what a kerfuffle that was; not going to let that happen today with one of my favourite routes!  EDIT: Methinks someone confused the W19's routing in Leytonstone for the 339  EXTRA EDIT: there is the railway bridge at South Grove/Selborne Road. It is tall enough for deckers to pass under it though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 8:47:04 GMT
I’ve seen several honest mistakes from people’s suggestions so I think I can be forgiven for one or two myself lol RandomBusesGirl you’d better believe we are discussing it, some of us don’t have a library of pictures showing exactly how low bridges are compared to single deck buses. Worth remembering as well that double deck doesn’t mean twice the height as single deck. As someone compiling the list, I don’t have the benefit of actual data on structures and I rely only on what I see. The info snoggle provided might suggest that the height restriction on the overhead walkway at WCH is erroneous or even out of date following resurfacing etc. Nonetheless, that’s all I have the privilege of working with. As for the leniency on routes with trees, I’m sorry but I think it’s a terribly sad day for buses if we are saying that one or two overhanging trees are the reason that we are saying ‘no way’ to DD operation. There is a certain ‘fantasy’ element about this thread because some routes have never before even seen a decker but the reality is that if TfL want deckers to run, they will do whatever tree management needs to be done. There is no doubt in my mind that they would cut trees down completely if they had to (like they did with some of their landscape improvements). I have given benefit to those routes who appear at least to have several (dense area of) low overhanging trees and where branches appear to be too thick for buses to pass through, not to mention trunks protruding into the roadway. I always give feedback on suggested routes and the reasons why I didn’t include them, I’ve already mentioned that I will return to these when the list appears complete but completion must take priority otherwise I’m left juggling two things at a time.I’ve highlighted the above in bold so that anyone moaning at me in future about trees will be referred to this. |
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 18, 2018 8:51:22 GMT
Hi all, just updated the list and it’s starting to look fuller ... You missed off the D3: Low railway bridge (10' 6") in Vallance Road, between Bethnal Green and Whitechapel. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 9:37:08 GMT
Some bridges with an arch for the roadway require tall vehicles to use the centre of the carriageway.
One such example is Westcombe Hill in south east London.
At one stage local managers suggested it was too low for modern double deckers (RTs on the 108 had fitted).
Was then proved OK provided the bus used the middle of the road.
The 291 is to get deckers later this year. Used to be OK when RTs/RMs ran in the Plumstead area as the 192. Apparently some trees will need to be lopped.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 10:05:46 GMT
Some bridges with an arch for the roadway require tall vehicles to use the centre of the carriageway. One such example is Westcombe Hill in south east London. At one stage local managers suggested it was too low for modern double deckers (RTs on the 108 had fitted). Was then proved OK provided the bus used the middle of the road. The 291 is to get deckers later this year. Used to be OK when RTs/RMs ran in the Plumstead area as the 192. Apparently some trees will need to be lopped. I think we need to appreciate the skill of the vast majority of bus drivers. Sure, we have seen our fair share of deroofs, crashes, and scrapes over the years but with the correct driving training, type training and route training I think that we can trust drivers to be mindful of their surroundings. There is evidence that TfL do too, I’m not sure that 422 drivers would need to use the middle of the road for the arch bridge at Westcombe Hill but if you look at trees as an example, TfL have provided warning signs for low trees in many places where DDs operate. I would think bus drivers use extra care in such areas. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 10:10:57 GMT
Hi all, I just read back over the last few pages and I think my list is as complete as possible thus far.
Still looking for more in the east London area, my B routes are looking shambolic! As for the west I’ll look into some of the E and H routes myself just to get some of them filled out nicely.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 18, 2018 12:06:24 GMT
Some bridges with an arch for the roadway require tall vehicles to use the centre of the carriageway. One such example is Westcombe Hill in south east London. At one stage local managers suggested it was too low for modern double deckers (RTs on the 108 had fitted). Was then proved OK provided the bus used the middle of the road. The 291 is to get deckers later this year. Used to be OK when RTs/RMs ran in the Plumstead area as the 192. Apparently some trees will need to be lopped. The 244 & 291 are now in doubt as to whether they will be converted to deckers as part of Crossrail so we'll have to wait & see if the original plan is to go ahead or not. |
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Post by redexpress on Jan 18, 2018 13:26:38 GMT
Some bridges with an arch for the roadway require tall vehicles to use the centre of the carriageway. One such example is Westcombe Hill in south east London. At one stage local managers suggested it was too low for modern double deckers (RTs on the 108 had fitted). Was then proved OK provided the bus used the middle of the road. The 291 is to get deckers later this year. Used to be OK when RTs/RMs ran in the Plumstead area as the 192. Apparently some trees will need to be lopped. I think we need to appreciate the skill of the vast majority of bus drivers. Sure, we have seen our fair share of deroofs, crashes, and scrapes over the years but with the correct driving training, type training and route training I think that we can trust drivers to be mindful of their surroundings. There is evidence that TfL do too, I’m not sure that 422 drivers would need to use the middle of the road for the arch bridge at Westcombe Hill but if you look at trees as an example, TfL have provided warning signs for low trees in many places where DDs operate. I would think bus drivers use extra care in such areas. The problem with arch bridges is that you're not just depending on the skill of the bus driver - you're also depending on drivers of oncoming vehicles using their brains, and this is a problem because not all drivers of oncoming vehicles have brains. Some arch bridges are not a problem, e.g. at Barnes Bridge you might have to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic but it's doable (as shown by the N22 and rail replacement services). But I wouldn't want to send a DD route down Abbey Street in Bermondsey (C10 route) because the arched section is quite long - all it would take is one or two idiots insisting on driving towards you and you're stuck. Another arch bridge that I'd say is unsuitable is Hook Road in Epsom; in theory the clearance is 15'6 but you need to hog the whole of a busy two-way street otherwise you'll strike the arch. |
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Post by redexpress on Jan 18, 2018 13:39:07 GMT
Just been looking through the updated list:
327 - 14'0 bridge on Turkey Street (this one may have been mentioned already).
377 - 12'9 bridge on Lincoln Road, Ponders End.
384 - this is usually restricted to short vehicles because of narrow roads with parked cars, particularly Strafford Road in Barnet. At one point the route was downgraded from 9.3m buses to 8.9m buses after residents complained about buses causing problems, but it has now reverted to 9.6m buses. Not sure that the problem is really bad enough to make your list.
393 - 10'9 bridge on Leaside Road, Clapton.
413 - can't see any problems there.
433 - used to see occasional DD operation; someone mentioned that trees have grown recently but that must be manageable.
465 - the only issue is trees in Mickelham village; there's quite a lot of vegetation leaning onto the road in places without a pavement. I'll leave it to you to see if it meets your criteria.
549 - no problem, I've covered the entire route on rail replacement DDs.
C1 - shouldn't be a problem, DDs have operated at the Victoria end on tube strike days, and the other end of the route is covered by other DD routes.
H22 - used to be a DD route (when it was numbered 202).
W14 - can't see any problems there, most of the route is covered by rail replacement DDs or other DD routes, except for the Leyton Asda terminus.
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Post by sid on Jan 18, 2018 13:40:46 GMT
I think we need to appreciate the skill of the vast majority of bus drivers. Sure, we have seen our fair share of deroofs, crashes, and scrapes over the years but with the correct driving training, type training and route training I think that we can trust drivers to be mindful of their surroundings. There is evidence that TfL do too, I’m not sure that 422 drivers would need to use the middle of the road for the arch bridge at Westcombe Hill but if you look at trees as an example, TfL have provided warning signs for low trees in many places where DDs operate. I would think bus drivers use extra care in such areas. The problem with arch bridges is that you're not just depending on the skill of the bus driver - you're also depending on drivers of oncoming vehicles using their brains, and this is a problem because not all drivers of oncoming vehicles have brains. Some arch bridges are not a problem, e.g. at Barnes Bridge you might have to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic but it's doable (as shown by the N22 and rail replacement services). But I wouldn't want to send a DD route down Abbey Street in Bermondsey (C10 route) because the arched section is quite long - all it would take is one or two idiots insisting on driving towards you and you're stuck. Another arch bridge that I'd say is unsuitable is Hook Road in Epsom; in theory the clearance is 15'6 but you need to hog the whole of a busy two-way street otherwise you'll strike the arch. Regarding Abbey Street out of service buses from route 1 regularly passed under that bridge without a problem, quite honestly a professional driver should be able to manage. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 18, 2018 13:43:40 GMT
The problem with arch bridges is that you're not just depending on the skill of the bus driver - you're also depending on drivers of oncoming vehicles using their brains, and this is a problem because not all drivers of oncoming vehicles have brains. Some arch bridges are not a problem, e.g. at Barnes Bridge you might have to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic but it's doable (as shown by the N22 and rail replacement services). But I wouldn't want to send a DD route down Abbey Street in Bermondsey (C10 route) because the arched section is quite long - all it would take is one or two idiots insisting on driving towards you and you're stuck. Another arch bridge that I'd say is unsuitable is Hook Road in Epsom; in theory the clearance is 15'6 but you need to hog the whole of a busy two-way street otherwise you'll strike the arch. Regarding Abbey Street out of service buses from route 1 regularly passed under that bridge without a problem, quite honestly a professional driver should be able to manage. However the issue is not actually the skill of the bus driver, it's the skill of people coming towards the bus, as well as finding a gap in the traffic long enough to allow the bus to pass safely under the bridge. If some lunatic doesn't realise a bus is coming from the other side of the bridge and then drives in, a chain of traffic will no doubt follow and then you'll get a stand-off. |
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Post by sid on Jan 18, 2018 13:57:04 GMT
Regarding Abbey Street out of service buses from route 1 regularly passed under that bridge without a problem, quite honestly a professional driver should be able to manage. However the issue is not actually the skill of the bus driver, it's the skill of people coming towards the bus, as well as finding a gap in the traffic long enough to allow the bus to pass safely under the bridge. If some lunatic doesn't realise a bus is coming from the other side of the bridge and then drives in, a chain of traffic will no doubt follow and then you'll get a stand-off. Double deckers and indeed high sided lorries can pass other traffic quite safely at Abbey Street, that could be a problem at other locations though. |
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