|
Post by gwiwer on Aug 29, 2023 20:36:06 GMT
It needs full-size buses. Some trips really need 'deckers but the bridge at Hinchley Wood precludes that and was the reason LT had to run so many RFs between Kingston and Esher along the Portsmouth Road. They can't come the other way through Lower Green with a 'decker either (as per the Sunday route) because there's an even tighter low bridge there. The only 'decker option is Esher - Scilly Isles - Weston Green and through Thames Ditton which misses out several stops that are otherwise only served hourly by the 458. Even then I'm not sure of the clearance at Thames Ditton bridge. The Thames Ditton bridge is 11’9” which would rule out deckers If Surrey played ball one solution might be to re-route the 715 via Hampton Court which overcomes the low-bridge problems around Esher / Hinchley Wood and to extend the 458 shorts through to Kingston thus retaining two buses an hour along the Portsmouth Road. It's not foolproof; Kingston - Hampton Court including two river crossings can be sources of delay. Another option which Surrey probably won't wish to support is to enhance the 715, which appears to be quite busy, to a 30-minute headway. Hourly doesn't suit a lot of people; the more often a bus runs the more likely it is to be of use to those along the route.
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Aug 29, 2023 22:02:00 GMT
The Thames Ditton bridge is 11’9” which would rule out deckers If Surrey played ball one solution might be to re-route the 715 via Hampton Court which overcomes the low-bridge problems around Esher / Hinchley Wood and to extend the 458 shorts through to Kingston thus retaining two buses an hour along the Portsmouth Road. It's not foolproof; Kingston - Hampton Court including two river crossings can be sources of delay. Another option which Surrey probably won't wish to support is to enhance the 715, which appears to be quite busy, to a 30-minute headway. Hourly doesn't suit a lot of people; the more often a bus runs the more likely it is to be of use to those along the route. The 715 is busy and it’s getting busier - between the 458 and 715 it’s the 715 that always seems to be the more crowded in recent months. It really could do with a frequency uplift, not withstanding that the hourly timings work well for the majority of users and the schools that are dotted along the route. I’m not sure about diverting the 715 via Hampton Court : that would mean a number of broken journeys for some of the regulars I see on my commute. On balance the ideal solution to the increasing success story that is the 715 would be for it to run with 2 buses an hour Monday to Saturday.
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Aug 30, 2023 15:49:49 GMT
I am not convinced either but offered it as an option to get 'deckers onto the route. When the 715 was a Green Line service it didn't serve Kingston. When it was converted to RMC coaches it still didn't serve Kingston running around the (old) A3 by-pass to Roehampton Vale. When the 715A variant was introduced, initially only on Saturdays, that had to run via Hampton Court because Routemasters were too tall for any of the bridges on any other route. Over the years the Hertford - Kingston bulk of the route has been cut and died.
It really could benefit from 2bph at least through the bulk of the day. An perhaps a modest evening enhancement. It should be possible to devise a Guildford - Kingston - Cobham - Kingston - Guildford duty within permitted hours for example that would cover the busier end. The Guildford end already has other services into the evening and Ripley probably doesn't need anything more.
I am still surprised that this is a Surrey contract as it is busy and getting busier. There are plenty of other routes which perhaps deserve support that is directed into a trunk route which might be a commercial proposition these days.
|
|
|
Post by ctrh136 on Aug 30, 2023 17:21:25 GMT
I am not convinced either but offered it as an option to get 'deckers onto the route. When the 715 was a Green Line service it didn't serve Kingston. When it was converted to RMC coaches it still didn't serve Kingston running around the (old) A3 by-pass to Roehampton Vale. When the 715A variant was introduced, initially only on Saturdays, that had to run via Hampton Court because Routemasters were too tall for any of the bridges on any other route. Over the years the Hertford - Kingston bulk of the route has been cut and died. It really could benefit from 2bph at least through the bulk of the day. An perhaps a modest evening enhancement. It should be possible to devise a Guildford - Kingston - Cobham - Kingston - Guildford duty within permitted hours for example that would cover the busier end. The Guildford end already has other services into the evening and Ripley probably doesn't need anything more. I am still surprised that this is a Surrey contract as it is busy and getting busier. There are plenty of other routes which perhaps deserve support that is directed into a trunk route which might be a commercial proposition these days. I guess if it does well enough then Falcon could consider doing that. Is their only commercial service the 461?
|
|
|
Post by cardinal on Aug 31, 2023 16:35:48 GMT
There was a brief London Transport 415 , MS evening jnys between Kingston and Esher. The 465 serves some of Portsmouth Road but I’m still surprised TfL have never taken full responsibility for a Kingston to Esher direct service via Portsmouth Road.
|
|
|
Post by wirewiper on Aug 31, 2023 16:47:23 GMT
There was a brief London Transport 415 , MS evening jnys between Kingston and Esher. The 465 serves some of Portsmouth Road but I’m still surprised TfL have never taken full responsibility for a Kingston to Esher direct service via Portsmouth Road. London Transport Central Area ran routes 218 from Kingston to Staines and 219 from Kingston to Weybridge. They were the last routes to be RF operated and were converted to LS (Leyland National) on 31st March 1979, just one week before the last RTs on the 62. As they operated almost entirely outside Greater London, they were eventually transferred to other companies. The 219 was replaced by an extension of London Country route 437 from Weybridge to Kingston in January 1983, whilst the 218 was reassigned to London Country South West by Surrey County Council on 26th October 1986 (renumbering to 458 came later).
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Aug 31, 2023 18:35:41 GMT
I am not convinced either but offered it as an option to get 'deckers onto the route. When the 715 was a Green Line service it didn't serve Kingston. When it was converted to RMC coaches it still didn't serve Kingston running around the (old) A3 by-pass to Roehampton Vale. When the 715A variant was introduced, initially only on Saturdays, that had to run via Hampton Court because Routemasters were too tall for any of the bridges on any other route. Over the years the Hertford - Kingston bulk of the route has been cut and died. It really could benefit from 2bph at least through the bulk of the day. An perhaps a modest evening enhancement. It should be possible to devise a Guildford - Kingston - Cobham - Kingston - Guildford duty within permitted hours for example that would cover the busier end. The Guildford end already has other services into the evening and Ripley probably doesn't need anything more. I am still surprised that this is a Surrey contract as it is busy and getting busier. There are plenty of other routes which perhaps deserve support that is directed into a trunk route which might be a commercial proposition these days. I like this post : just for information, Falcon now do the driver changes in Cobham, at the Oakdene Road stop, with a car ferrying drivers to and from Byfleet.
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Aug 31, 2023 18:41:06 GMT
There was a brief London Transport 415 , MS evening jnys between Kingston and Esher. The 465 serves some of Portsmouth Road but I’m still surprised TfL have never taken full responsibility for a Kingston to Esher direct service via Portsmouth Road. It’s a tough one - not that I don’t disagree with you. There’s nowhere easy for another bus route to terminate in Esher - the one obvious terminal point is occupied by the K3. That would probably mean TfL having to take over the 458 at least as far as Walton, and the 715 as far as Cobham, and though this would be lovely, I doubt TfL would have the stomach for that in the current circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Aug 31, 2023 19:55:27 GMT
There was a brief London Transport 415 , MS evening jnys between Kingston and Esher. The 465 serves some of Portsmouth Road but I’m still surprised TfL have never taken full responsibility for a Kingston to Esher direct service via Portsmouth Road. It’s a tough one - not that I don’t disagree with you. There’s nowhere easy for another bus route to terminate in Esher - the one obvious terminal point is occupied by the K3. That would probably mean TfL having to take over the 458 at least as far as Walton, and the 715 as far as Cobham, and though this would be lovely, I doubt TfL would have the stomach for that in the current circumstances. Whilst it doesn't cover all of the Portsmouth Road between Esher and Kingston may I refer members here to my posts regarding an R68 extension from Hampton Court to Surbiton which would cover part of that ground. TfL and their predecessors have always pulled in their horns at the boundary. LT once had an impressive network of routes in NE Surrey run from Kingston, Norbiton and Fulwell sheds. Most of those ran largely beyond Greater London and were only historically any part of the London network. Opportunities to withdraw or dispose of them were taken readily. So while remnants are in some cases readily apparent and in some cases even using the same route number others have vanished without trace. The 218 became the 458 but the 215 as such has gone; the 715 is now an all-stops service over almost the same route however. Esher is a tricky one because it lies so close to the boundary yet politically would surely prefer to stay within Surrey. Its one remaining TfL bus route, the K3, is indirect but charges the TfL £1.75 fare throughout despite which the 458 and 715 (currently adopting the Westminster-supported £2 maximum fare) do quite well on the direct Portsmouth Road route. Falcon buses offer "Oyster-match" fares within the TfL area on their Kingston-based routes yet don't really abstract much if any traffic from the "red" buses. Esher station is not within the London zones yet nearby Thames Ditton is despite also being in Surrey. As is Hampton Court station but not the Palace as the boundary is the river. So any new Kingston - Esher bus along the Portsmouth Road (the old 215/8/9 LOR) would probably need to adopt Surrey fares, commercial or supported, in order to avoid abstraction from the 458 and 715 to the detriment of both. A better solution for the Portsmouth Road would be to uplift both existing routes to 2bph. The short 458s could be extended back to Kingston as they once were and we have already discussed the need for more capacity on the 715. Timetables could be co-ordinated to give at least a close approximation to a 15-minute headway over the common section; an exactly even headway is ideal but given traffic conditions is also not going to be reliably achieved anyway. The greater needs of both routes in terms of serving other local needs and crew working arrangements also needs to be borne in mind. But a 4bph service from Kingston to Esher should not be both routes leaving together followed by a 30-minute interval and then two more together.
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Aug 31, 2023 20:09:07 GMT
There was a brief London Transport 415 , MS evening jnys between Kingston and Esher. The 465 serves some of Portsmouth Road but I’m still surprised TfL have never taken full responsibility for a Kingston to Esher direct service via Portsmouth Road. London Transport Central Area ran routes 218 from Kingston to Staines and 219 from Kingston to Weybridge. They were the last routes to be RF operated and were converted to LS (Leyland National) on 31st March 1979, just one week before the last RTs on the 62. As they operated almost entirely outside Greater London, they were eventually transferred to other companies. The 219 was replaced by an extension of London Country route 437 from Weybridge to Kingston in January 1983, whilst the 218 was reassigned to London Country South West by Surrey County Council on 26th October 1986 (renumbering to 458 came later). The 218 and 219 were to be converted to LS on the same day as the last RT workings on the 62 went over to RM. In a rare outbreak of common sense LT understood that both events would attract significant interest so the 62 conversion was delayed by a week to avoid a clash. In the end many people were at both with "festivities" at Kingston garage lasting well into the night and the last RF journey on the 218 having two dupes to manage the loadings. Some of the new LSs which went into NB for the 218 / 219 had the mysterious via-point "Eshe" on their blinds; a corrected set was hastily made up. A week later Barking garage was pretty much mobbed as the final service run of the RT bus came home and - most uncommonly - was allowed to carry its passengers into the garage to alight. No others were allowed in though; garage staff were very determined to keep thousands of enthusiasts and media outside. The 216 also operates across the London - Surrey border and has been threatened (by TfL) with truncation or withdrawal on many occasions. Most recently it was to have terminated at Ashford Hospital but that plan was sensibly abandoned when it was pointed out that they had already cut the 116 back to that point and only the 203 would then run through to Staines with insufficient capacity for traffic offering. I was aboard an RF-worked 216 on the final 218 / 219 day. One 216 rounder was worked by an RF during the afternoon to the surprise of many. I was the only one who managed to ride the full rounder as everyone else was out chasing their favoured vehicles along the Portsmouth Road or through the leafy roads of Weybridge, Shepperton and Laleham. Currently the 216 remains as a Kingston - Staines route more or less the same as it has been for very many years though its future outside the TfL area cannot be assured.
|
|
|
Post by mark on Sept 1, 2023 8:18:03 GMT
The 216 also operates across the London - Surrey border and has been threatened (by TfL) with truncation or withdrawal on many occasions. Most recently it was to have terminated at Ashford Hospital but that plan was sensibly abandoned when it was pointed out that they had already cut the 116 back to that point and only the 203 would then run through to Staines with insufficient capacity for traffic offering. I was aboard an RF-worked 216 on the final 218 / 219 day. One 216 rounder was worked by an RF during the afternoon to the surprise of many. I was the only one who managed to ride the full rounder as everyone else was out chasing their favoured vehicles along the Portsmouth Road or through the leafy roads of Weybridge, Shepperton and Laleham. Currently the 216 remains as a Kingston - Staines route more or less the same as it has been for very many years though its future outside the TfL area cannot be assured. Although historically a central area route the 216 was run commercially by Westlink / London United from deregulation in 1986 until 2002 when it was withdrawn. At that stage TfL stepped in and it became part of the London bus network. Initially operated on a one year contract by TfL it passed to London United in 2003 and has remained with them since. Its survival is a bit odd as it is duplicated by the 111 for almost all of the route that runs within Greater London. To the best of my knowledge it has never been threatened with withdrawal by TfL but, in advance of the 2018 contract renewal it was propped to curtail it at Ashford Hospital. At this stage Surrey County Council stepped in and now makes a payment towards supporting the section between there and Staines. There are reasonable flows between Staines/Ashford/Sunbury and Kingston and a fair number of school children between Sunbury (where there are two Roman Catholic schools) and Hampton/Kingston.
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Sept 1, 2023 13:12:55 GMT
i agree with the bulk of the post above. The 216 was expected to be withdrawn between Ashford Hospital and Staines because that is outside the TfL boundary and it was felt there were too many buses already on that corridor. A little work was done to establish that the 203 would require 'deckers to cope if the 216 were withdrawn and then Surrey stepped in with a small contribution to retain common sense and keep the route as it is.
Had the route been truncated to Ashford Hospital it is possible that it would also have been trimmed back at the other end. Potentially diverted at Hampton to Fulwell garage. As Mark has pointed out the 111, which is much more frequent, covers the ground between Hampton and Kingston with some spare capacity. The 411 also covers the Hampton Court - Kingston section.
So far so good. We have the 216 in its sensible form offering good local links and connections without need of a change of bus. Having a "hopper" fare is fine in theory but it is well-established within the industry that the more changes a passenger is required to make the less likely they are to travel in the first place. Each change requires a wait which in turn introduces uncertainty about the next service turning up and extends the overall trip time. Which also lowers the average speed of the journey.
We are not going to have a network of buses which offer "anywhere to everywhere" services without a change but we should be working towards sensible links and longer routes with improved reliability rather than ever-shorter routes based upon a need to run on time and the theory that "it's OK because there's a hopper fare so no-one will pay twice".
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Sept 1, 2023 14:29:02 GMT
i agree with the bulk of the post above. The 216 was expected to be withdrawn between Ashford Hospital and Staines because that is outside the TfL boundary and it was felt there were too many buses already on that corridor. A little work was done to establish that the 203 would require 'deckers to cope if the 216 were withdrawn and then Surrey stepped in with a small contribution to retain common sense and keep the route as it is. Had the route been truncated to Ashford Hospital it is possible that it would also have been trimmed back at the other end. Potentially diverted at Hampton to Fulwell garage. As Mark has pointed out the 111, which is much more frequent, covers the ground between Hampton and Kingston with some spare capacity. The 411 also covers the Hampton Court - Kingston section. So far so good. We have the 216 in its sensible form offering good local links and connections without need of a change of bus. Having a "hopper" fare is fine in theory but it is well-established within the industry that the more changes a passenger is required to make the less likely they are to travel in the first place. Each change requires a wait which in turn introduces uncertainty about the next service turning up and extends the overall trip time. Which also lowers the average speed of the journey. We are not going to have a network of buses which offer "anywhere to everywhere" services without a change but we should be working towards sensible links and longer routes with improved reliability rather than ever-shorter routes based upon a need to run on time and the theory that "it's OK because there's a hopper fare so no-one will pay twice". I broadly agree with this except for the final part - the reason why routes are getting shorter is simply because no one has, IMO, bothered to really tackle congestion and until that happens, and I'm not holding my breath, there won't be this massive return to 1970 or 1980 style routes that remove the need to change. Even outside London, some longer routes have been trimmed back - the 100 in Essex from Lakeside to Chelmsford is now in two sections with the split occurring at Basildon and this isn't an isolated example outside London either.
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Sept 2, 2023 13:06:36 GMT
i agree with the bulk of the post above. The 216 was expected to be withdrawn between Ashford Hospital and Staines because that is outside the TfL boundary and it was felt there were too many buses already on that corridor. A little work was done to establish that the 203 would require 'deckers to cope if the 216 were withdrawn and then Surrey stepped in with a small contribution to retain common sense and keep the route as it is. Had the route been truncated to Ashford Hospital it is possible that it would also have been trimmed back at the other end. Potentially diverted at Hampton to Fulwell garage. As Mark has pointed out the 111, which is much more frequent, covers the ground between Hampton and Kingston with some spare capacity. The 411 also covers the Hampton Court - Kingston section. So far so good. We have the 216 in its sensible form offering good local links and connections without need of a change of bus. Having a "hopper" fare is fine in theory but it is well-established within the industry that the more changes a passenger is required to make the less likely they are to travel in the first place. Each change requires a wait which in turn introduces uncertainty about the next service turning up and extends the overall trip time. Which also lowers the average speed of the journey. We are not going to have a network of buses which offer "anywhere to everywhere" services without a change but we should be working towards sensible links and longer routes with improved reliability rather than ever-shorter routes based upon a need to run on time and the theory that "it's OK because there's a hopper fare so no-one will pay twice". I broadly agree with this except for the final part - the reason why routes are getting shorter is simply because no one has, IMO, bothered to really tackle congestion and until that happens, and I'm not holding my breath, there won't be this massive return to 1970 or 1980 style routes that remove the need to change. Even outside London, some longer routes have been trimmed back - the 100 in Essex from Lakeside to Chelmsford is now in two sections with the split occurring at Basildon and this isn't an isolated example outside London either. While congestion is a factor so is the privatisation model. For example the 15 was once worked from both ends as an East Ham - Ladbroke Grove or Richmond route with U covering a majority of duties, X helping out at the western end and PR adding weight on Saturdays. Since the break-up of LT into what is now the franchised private businesses that run for TfL such a thing has become unheard of. One garage runs one route. That means there is no input at the far end and no help available if something goes wrong. Using the 15 again as an example (one of many) if buses from U were unable to get through to the West End because of a demonstration at Trafalgar Square they could be turned back at Aldwych and those from X would provide a service between Oxford Circus and Ladbroke Grove. Today it's simply "no service". This also happens outside London. Take the lengthy Stagecoach route 700 between Brighton and Portsmouth as an example. Successor to the well-known Southdown route 31 over much the same ground it has for some years now run in three sections. This is not the same as having a long route "connecting" for places at a convenient break-point to avoid the 35-km / 20-mile rule for domestic non-tacho driving but which advertised the reality in small print namely that the connection was "guaranteed", passengers could buy a through ticket to their destination and remain on the vehicle. The 700 is now three quite distinct routes and passenger much change vehicles and await an onward connection though can still buy through tickets. Brighton - Portsmouth took over 4 hours but the through journey now requires over 5 because of enforced changes at Littlehampton and Chichester. On the other hand this also allows for a tailoring of service levels to demand with usually single-deckers on the less frequent Littlehampton - Bognor Regis - Chichester leg which is also very much the least-used part of the route. In this case service is maintained over the legs operated locally even if interrupted elsewhere; Worthing runs the Brighton - Littlehampton (Wick) section, Chichester runs the Littlehampton - Chichester leg and Chichester / Havant share the Bognor Regis - Portsmouth leg.
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Sept 9, 2023 5:54:33 GMT
Sorry to return to the 715 again, but my commute yesterday was interesting. I caught the first bus out of Kingston, and that was crowded enough (complete with driver who didn’t really know where he was half the time!), but my return journey (16:07 ex Cobham to Kingston) emphasised why it’s probably getting close to the time that a frequency boost is needed. Every seat taken by Fairmile, and by Esher pretty much every bit of floor space taken with standees and two people sitting in the luggage rack. Watching the 715 grow over the years has in many ways been a pleasure.
|
|