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Post by redbus on Aug 9, 2018 12:49:02 GMT
With the C2 dropping to every 10 mins and the 88 now every 10 mins (down recently from every 7-8 mins) so my guess would be 10 mins on the new 88. My hunch would be this:
'TfL are pleased to announce the result of the consultation into routes C2 and 88..... blah blah....The 88 will be diverted between Great Portland Station and Camden Town via Albany Street and will be extended from Camden Town to Parliament Hill Fields, thus everyone currently using the C2 will be able to make exactly the same journey as now on one bus. There will be the added advantage of new links to Piccadilly Circus....blah blah,,, We are pleased to announce there will be a slight increase in service compared to the C2 during the peaks and for most of the day from the current 6 bph to 7 bph, which will also adequately cover the existing demand from Camden Town to Oxford Circus of 5 bph.... blah blah'. The End. 'TfL - Putting the con into consultation.' Inexplicably, the last sentence got left out.
It's just possible they might make this 7.5 bph, thus giving a 50% notional increase on the 5 bph that Tfl state is necessary..
No surprises here. Learned members predicted this merger of the C2 and 88 on the forum as others have noted.
As for frequencies I am afraid that I am more pessimistic. I think if the intention was to have the 88 running at 8 daytime and 12 evening to PHF, then that is what the C2 would have been reduced to. I think this is preparing the way for a 10 minute daytime frequency and hopefully 12, but possible 15 minute evening / Sunday frequency on the 88.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 9, 2018 13:32:36 GMT
My hunch would be this:
'TfL are pleased to announce the result of the consultation into routes C2 and 88..... blah blah....The 88 will be diverted between Great Portland Station and Camden Town via Albany Street and will be extended from Camden Town to Parliament Hill Fields, thus everyone currently using the C2 will be able to make exactly the same journey as now on one bus. There will be the added advantage of new links to Piccadilly Circus....blah blah,,, We are pleased to announce there will be a slight increase in service compared to the C2 during the peaks and for most of the day from the current 6 bph to 7 bph, which will also adequately cover the existing demand from Camden Town to Oxford Circus of 5 bph.... blah blah'. The End. 'TfL - Putting the con into consultation.' Inexplicably, the last sentence got left out.
It's just possible they might make this 7.5 bph, thus giving a 50% notional increase on the 5 bph that Tfl state is necessary..
No surprises here. Learned members predicted this merger of the C2 and 88 on the forum as others have noted.
As for frequencies I am afraid that I am more pessimistic. I think if the intention was to have the 88 running at 8 daytime and 12 evening to PHF, then that is what the C2 would have been reduced to. I think this is preparing the way for a 10 minute daytime frequency and hopefully 12, but possible 15 minute evening / Sunday frequency on the 88.
You could well be right, but if the 159 gets cut back to Regent Street at roughly the same time, and with the 3 already having disappeared from the area, then the 88 is going to be taking more passengers south of Oxford Circus (and let's not forget those C2 passengers who are taking advantage of TfL's generosity in being able to access Picc Circ, Westminster, etc ) so a cut in the 'traditional' bit of the 88 to 6bph might be hard to defend. Also, politically, 'sops' that merely replace a tiny amount of what's been cut are popular and don't cost too much.
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 9, 2018 20:56:05 GMT
It's not a case of predictions when the 207 award to Abellio cited the use of route C2's buses, the route withdrawal was bound to happen. As I said in a post concerning potential cuts a few weeks back, I will not shed a tear at the C2's withdrawal. It was a replacement to the Mayfair area after the 8 was pulled from Victoria, still a broken & unreplaced link I mourn to this day. I will admit though that the C2's extension did give the route more life. Alas, chopping it again to Regent Street made it dead in the water in terms of meaningful links, and I'm sure QB are having a ball facilitating changeovers in one of the busiest shopping districts in Europe.... All eyes on the 88 and what will happen to it frequency-wise. Liking the cynicism from other members; this cut from 8 to 6 bph during the daytimes to then withdraw the route and replace it with the 88's frequency, whatever it'll be; is a nice attempt of Mr Hyde trying to hide the monstrous Dr Jeckell. "Look this cut isn't that bad. The 88 covers all the route and the frequency is better" is what the service change document will say when the deed's done. I'm also liking almost everyone ignoring the elephant in the room, apart from ADH45258 . The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallies/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at near its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. *The figure provided by a BBC One daytime show, Oxford Street Uncovered I believe it's called.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 9, 2018 21:10:27 GMT
It's not a case pf predictions when the 207 award to Abellio cited the use of route C2's buses, the route withdrawal was bound to happen. As I said in a post concerning potential cuts a few weeks back, I will not shed a tear at the C2's withdrawal. It was a replacement to the Mayfair area after the 8 was pulled from Victoria, still a broken & unreplaced link I mourn to this day. I will admit though that the C2's extension did give the route more life. Alas, chopping it again to Regent Street made it dead in the water in terms of meaningful links, and I'm sure QB are having a ball facilitating changeovers in one of the busiest shopping districts in Europe.... All eyes on the 88 and what will happen to it frequency-wise. Liking the cynicism from other members; this cut from 8 to 6 bph during the daytimes to then withdraw the route and replace it with the 88's frequency, whatever it'll be; is a nice attempt of Mr Hyde trying to hide the monstrous Dr Jeckell. "Look this cut isn't that bad. The 88 covers all the route and the frequency is better" is what the service change document will say when the deed's done. I'm also liking almost everyone ignoring the elephant in the room, apart from ADH45258 . The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallys/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. *The figure provided by a BBC One daytime show, Oxford Street Uncovered I believe it's called. Something I don't believe anyone has mentioned is that we once again have a 13/82 situation in a way: i.e. what is actually happening is that the C2 is being extended to Clapham Common and the 88 is being withdrawn, the difference this time being that TfL are being less devious (talk about d*mning with faint praise ). No, I'm not suggesting that all the bus stop tiles from Regent Street southwards be replaced, I'm just displaying impeccable logic.
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Post by redbus on Aug 9, 2018 22:05:48 GMT
It's not a case pf predictions when the 207 award to Abellio cited the use of route C2's buses, the route withdrawal was bound to happen. As I said in a post concerning potential cuts a few weeks back, I will not shed a tear at the C2's withdrawal. It was a replacement to the Mayfair area after the 8 was pulled from Victoria, still a broken & unreplaced link I mourn to this day. I will admit though that the C2's extension did give the route more life. Alas, chopping it again to Regent Street made it dead in the water in terms of meaningful links, and I'm sure QB are having a ball facilitating changeovers in one of the busiest shopping districts in Europe.... All eyes on the 88 and what will happen to it frequency-wise. Liking the cynicism from other members; this cut from 8 to 6 bph during the daytimes to then withdraw the route and replace it with the 88's frequency, whatever it'll be; is a nice attempt of Mr Hyde trying to hide the monstrous Dr Jeckell. "Look this cut isn't that bad. The 88 covers all the route and the frequency is better" is what the service change document will say when the deed's done. I'm also liking almost everyone ignoring the elephant in the room, apart from ADH45258 . The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallys/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. *The figure provided by a BBC One daytime show, Oxford Street Uncovered I believe it's called. Excellent points. Originally the 3 then the 53 did oxo - phf and the C2 was introduced to partly to improve reliability and also as was flavour of the day at the time, a high frequency midi bus route. Clearly in respect of reliability these changes are regressive and it will be difficult for the 88 to provide a good service all the time. If it was thought the oxo - phf section was too much for the 3 and 53, then traffic now is worse and there are loads more demos / events as you say. The 139 keeps getting cut back to the likes of Portman Square or Piccadilly Circus due to such demos / events leaving a very poor or non existent service to Waterloo at those times. Why will the 88 be any different?
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Post by busaholic on Aug 9, 2018 22:12:43 GMT
It's not a case pf predictions when the 207 award to Abellio cited the use of route C2's buses, the route withdrawal was bound to happen. As I said in a post concerning potential cuts a few weeks back, I will not shed a tear at the C2's withdrawal. It was a replacement to the Mayfair area after the 8 was pulled from Victoria, still a broken & unreplaced link I mourn to this day. I will admit though that the C2's extension did give the route more life. Alas, chopping it again to Regent Street made it dead in the water in terms of meaningful links, and I'm sure QB are having a ball facilitating changeovers in one of the busiest shopping districts in Europe.... All eyes on the 88 and what will happen to it frequency-wise. Liking the cynicism from other members; this cut from 8 to 6 bph during the daytimes to then withdraw the route and replace it with the 88's frequency, whatever it'll be; is a nice attempt of Mr Hyde trying to hide the monstrous Dr Jeckell. "Look this cut isn't that bad. The 88 covers all the route and the frequency is better" is what the service change document will say when the deed's done. I'm also liking almost everyone ignoring the elephant in the room, apart from ADH45258 . The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallys/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. *The figure provided by a BBC One daytime show, Oxford Street Uncovered I believe it's called. Excellent points. Originally the 3 then the 53 did oxo - phf and the C2 was introduced to partly to improve reliability and also as was flavour of the day at the time, a high frequency midi bus route. Clearly in respect of reliability these changes are regressive and it will be difficult for the 88 to provide a good service all the time. If it was thought the oxo - phf section was too much for the 3 and 53, then traffic now is worse and there are loads more demos / events as you say. The 139 keeps getting cut back to the likes of Portman Square or Piccadilly Circus due to such demos / events leaving a very poor or non existent service to Waterloo at those times. Why will the 88 be any different?
Send the 253 down the C2 from Camden Town to Oxford Circus, if Hampstead Road is going to be one extended traffic jam ( the use of Euston is only for operational reasons anyway) extend something else to PHF.
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Post by M1104 on Aug 9, 2018 22:49:16 GMT
The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallys/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. Possibilities during those scenarios could be some short workings between Parliament Hill fields and Oxford Circus to at least maintain a service north of the demonstrations
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 10, 2018 0:47:36 GMT
The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallys/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. Possibilities during those scenarios could be some short workings between Parliament Hill fields and Oxford Circus to at least maintain a service north of the demonstrations Well there is the 214 providing assistance between Camden and Parliament Hill Fields. The real trick here is the new frequency of the 88; it is indirectly linked to recovery time so has to be just right so if a bus turns short for unforeseen reasons, the gap in the service isn't too great. I think 7bph (or every 6-7 minutes) isn't a bad pitch, as well as three buses scheduled to stand on the Parliament Hill Fields stand so recovery time is ample to counteract any delays on a trip. I think the two buses scheduled at Old Town Hall is sufficient, seeing as drivers are likely to change over at Stockwell before going to Clapham; and I guess that's where most buses start and end their service anyway. Still if stand space isn't a problem (and I guess it is), a 3rd 88 bus standing at Clapham wouldn't hurt.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 10, 2018 1:35:15 GMT
It's not a case of predictions when the 207 award to Abellio cited the use of route C2's buses, the route withdrawal was bound to happen. As I said in a post concerning potential cuts a few weeks back, I will not shed a tear at the C2's withdrawal. It was a replacement to the Mayfair area after the 8 was pulled from Victoria, still a broken & unreplaced link I mourn to this day. I will admit though that the C2's extension did give the route more life. Alas, chopping it again to Regent Street made it dead in the water in terms of meaningful links, and I'm sure QB are having a ball facilitating changeovers in one of the busiest shopping districts in Europe.... All eyes on the 88 and what will happen to it frequency-wise. Liking the cynicism from other members; this cut from 8 to 6 bph during the daytimes to then withdraw the route and replace it with the 88's frequency, whatever it'll be; is a nice attempt of Mr Hyde trying to hide the monstrous Dr Jeckell. "Look this cut isn't that bad. The 88 covers all the route and the frequency is better" is what the service change document will say when the deed's done. I'm also liking almost everyone ignoring the elephant in the room, apart from ADH45258 . The C2 is to be replaced with a much longer & extended route 88, and the section north of Camden Town is likely to have its reliability suffer tremendously than at present. If the City of Westminster sees 1400* events/rallies/demonstrations in a normal year, it only takes (albeit a big) one of those to bring the extended route to its knees. And seeing as the 88 has its depot at near its southern terminus, well, you get the picture. *The figure provided by a BBC One daytime show, Oxford Street Uncovered I believe it's called. I agree that the 88 won't cope not only on a reduced frequency but an extension further on. Not only does it travel through one of the most congested parts of Central London, it also has to contend with Camden which can throw up issues as well as Clapham High Street which can & does see traffic jams. Throw in the Vauxhall demolition works whenever they begin and it will horrible to use - I suspect it's own patronage will slide off a cliff as a result and there could be a knock on effect to other routes like the 2 which enjoys the help of the 88 during the peaks between Stockwell & Vauxhall. The 88 should be left along with the C2 actually being kept but restructured into a different routing - no way should it of been cut.
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Post by M1104 on Aug 10, 2018 7:15:37 GMT
The 88 should be left along with the C2 actually being kept but restructured into a different routing - no way should it of been cut. Had the C2 not already been cut back from Victoria I would have suggested an extension via the 44 to Battersea: Nine Elms in prep for the opening of the NLE.
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Post by sid on Aug 10, 2018 7:33:15 GMT
There is perhaps a case for keeping the C2 and converting it to single decker and extending it to Highgate Village allowing the 214 to be curtailed at Parliament Hill Fields and upgraded to double deckers.
This would mean the 88 being curtailed at Oxford Circus but then there is the obvious problem about stand space.
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Post by ADH45258 on Aug 10, 2018 8:19:03 GMT
There is perhaps a case for keeping the C2 and converting it to single decker and extending it to Highgate Village allowing the 214 to be curtailed at Parliament Hill Fields and upgraded to double deckers. This would mean the 88 being curtailed at Oxford Circus but then there is the obvious problem about stand space. I have suggested this on multiple occasions. Would be a simple contract number swap (similar to the 350/U5), with the C2 operated by NP and the 214 put out to tender. This is probably the best solution, unless: - The C2 is kept as a DD route, with the extension beyond Regent Street to be more useful in central London. Could reverse previous changes and be restored to Victoria, or even be routed towards Aldwych or the City to replace broken links from the 15/23. - The C2 is withdrawn, replaced by an extended 27 from Camden to PHF, 134 rerouted from Warren Street to Oxford Circus, and 88 diverted via Albany Street.
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Post by ADH45258 on Aug 10, 2018 8:26:08 GMT
The 88 should be left along with the C2 actually being kept but restructured into a different routing - no way should it of been cut. Had the C2 not already been cut back from Victoria I would have suggested an extension via the 44 to Battersea: Nine Elms in prep for the opening of the NLE. The 24 could be extended from Pimlico instead? Or even the 16 from Victoria?
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 10, 2018 10:20:39 GMT
There is perhaps a case for keeping the C2 and converting it to single decker and extending it to Highgate Village allowing the 214 to be curtailed at Parliament Hill Fields and upgraded to double deckers. This would mean the 88 being curtailed at Oxford Circus but then there is the obvious problem about stand space. I have suggested this on multiple occasions. Would be a simple contract number swap (similar to the 350/U5), with the C2 operated by NP and the 214 put out to tender. This is probably the best solution, unless: - The C2 is kept as a DD route, with the extension beyond Regent Street to be more useful in central London. Could reverse previous changes and be restored to Victoria, or even be routed towards Aldwych or the City to replace broken links from the 15/23. - The C2 is withdrawn, replaced by an extended 27 from Camden to PHF, 134 rerouted from Warren Street to Oxford Circus, and 88 diverted via Albany Street. Where do you propose a high PVR route like the 134 stand if it were sent to Oxford Circus? When the 15 was curtailed to Regent Street, you'd often see a bus standing on Regent Street southbound after the stand for two buses is already full.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 10, 2018 10:33:21 GMT
The 88 is going to become the new 24 then - a route of two separate parts whenever disruptions, planned or not-so-planned, occur in the West End. Stockwell garage at least have had 'form' in attempting to deal with such situations when they ran the 24. If ever the one company contract system was shown to have major flaws, then it's this sort of thing. How much better to run the route from two garages, one north, one south. No, I don't mean bring Northumberland Park into it, I mean run it from HT as well.
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