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Post by snoggle on Sept 19, 2018 21:50:25 GMT
But he was driving legally though. Only in the context of being within the maximum number of hours than can be worked. He certainly wasn't driving legally on the video clip that ended in him crashing into Sainsburys. Given the statements made about his dementia he wasn't capable of making an objective self assessment of his competence to keep driving. In such circumstances you would hope that the employer would step in to stop an individual driving. It's not as if they didn't know - assuming the media and press comments are true. Where was the local garage management, company HR and occupational health service in this debacle? I appreciate I am taking a "perfect" position here but that's what the legislation requires. I'm well aware people cut corners and / or are ignorant of their duties but this case demonstrates what can happen when the law isn't complied with.
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Post by redbus on Sept 19, 2018 23:10:44 GMT
For me age is not what is important here. The point is if you are unable to identify drivers who should not be driving then there is a problem at any age. In this case arguably things initially worked well, in that according to the report all the driver's deficiencies were found out in timely manner. The issue here appears to be that the information about those deficiencies was not acted upon, and that has nothing to do with age.
Indeed he was driving legally in that he had a valid PCV licence and authorised to drive by the bus company. The standard of his driving without making any accusations may have been illegal according to the reports, I take much care here because the driver has yet to be convicted.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 20, 2018 0:43:24 GMT
And somewhere the 70+ hour week should have been noticed. How that fell yhrrhough the cracks baffles me The BBC 10 o'clock news report made interesting (make that disturbing) viewing. The driver had been reported numerous times, was being regularly monitored by incognito staff on board, whose reports included allegations of speeding, overshooting each and every bus stop, pulling away from a bus stop with the door open and passenger struggling to stay onboard, etc. The driver's status as ex-mayor of Leamington may have blinded Stagecoach to the bleeding obvious, that this man had become a dangerous liability and should have been prevented from driving a bus. I sincerely hope that if Stagecoach plead guilty to the various Health and Safety charges they are facing they don't thereby escape scrutiny of their actions/inactions. I saw the news article and was shocking. I have seen a few bus accident CCTV, but this was shocking. I would not say age is a part of it. The driver wasn't in a right state of mind to start with. The worst is the hours he was doing and he had a VERY poor driving standard as was allowed to continue driving. The manager at the garage he had work for would be in serious poo and could and more than likely would be facing prosecution. It appears that he was flagged up by their own driving standard staff, but was allowed to continue; I guess as he was previously a mayor.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 20, 2018 0:44:45 GMT
Yes I agree this was a very tragic incident, however I do feel we need to steer away from this talk of an maximum age-restriction for PCV drivers. Just like those over 70 car drivers they do undergo regular medical examinations. I know of two London bus drivers who are over the age of 70 driving on Routes 37 & N3 respectively, one of which I have met and had many a conversation with and to be perfectly honest I have no doubt on his competence to do the job, I cant recall him ever having an accident or incident on his part and he actually puts many of the younger newer drivers to shame. If anything needs to come out of this then the medical tests should maybe more frequent but an outright maximum age-restriction really isnt the way forward until they get to obviously borderline ages like 80-90+. I wasn't saying that 70 should be the cut-off, but I don't believe that a person aged 75 or over should be allowed to drive a bus in public service; this will be 'unfair' on the tiny minority of drivers over that age who would appear not to be subject to the same process of ageing as the majority, but so be it. By the way, the medical test I had to pass when I had to renew my car driving licence a few months ago was filling in a form in which I confirmed, honestly, that I didn't suffer from any of the conditions specified and I self-certified my absolute right to continue driving! The licence was duly granted, as it probably would have been if I'd lied convincingly. Another factor, which could be an 'aggravating' one in this case, is that only physical health is really considered. Memory loss/dementia is the elephant in the room. The days when a bus driver got in his (always his) cab and just drove while the conductor dealt with pesky passengers, with all their demands and not knowing what the fares are/where they want to go, etc, are long gone, never to return. The modern bus driving job is not for the fainthearted, nor for the elderly! Imagine the government wants to raise the retirement age to 70 and some possibly talking 75, so there would be a likelihood of more elderly drivers in the future.
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Post by busaholic on Sept 20, 2018 18:15:34 GMT
I wasn't saying that 70 should be the cut-off, but I don't believe that a person aged 75 or over should be allowed to drive a bus in public service; this will be 'unfair' on the tiny minority of drivers over that age who would appear not to be subject to the same process of ageing as the majority, but so be it. By the way, the medical test I had to pass when I had to renew my car driving licence a few months ago was filling in a form in which I confirmed, honestly, that I didn't suffer from any of the conditions specified and I self-certified my absolute right to continue driving! The licence was duly granted, as it probably would have been if I'd lied convincingly. Another factor, which could be an 'aggravating' one in this case, is that only physical health is really considered. Memory loss/dementia is the elephant in the room. The days when a bus driver got in his (always his) cab and just drove while the conductor dealt with pesky passengers, with all their demands and not knowing what the fares are/where they want to go, etc, are long gone, never to return. The modern bus driving job is not for the fainthearted, nor for the elderly! Imagine the government wants to raise the retirement age to 70 and some possibly talking 75, so there would be a likelihood of more elderly drivers in the future. Yes, I look forward to being rescued by a 69 year old fireman/firewoman when my house catches fire! Utter madness. We had a situation two or three decades ago when the top judge in the land, Lord Denning, well into his eighties and able to continue LEGALLY as long as he saw fit was obviously experiencing a form of dementia, which appeared to include the belief that he was the sole arbiter of truth, and made a series of appalling judgments and blunders, but, hey, elephant in the room, how dare anyone query the almighty Denning? If he'd had his way, and the law still allowed it, the 'Guildford Five' and 'Birmingham Six', all utterly innocent, would have been executed. Now, thankfully, judges have a retirement age before any more damage can be done.
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Post by sid on Sept 20, 2018 18:25:37 GMT
Imagine the government wants to raise the retirement age to 70 and some possibly talking 75, so there would be a likelihood of more elderly drivers in the future. Yes, I look forward to being rescued by a 69 year old fireman/firewoman when my house catches fire! Utter madness. We had a situation two or three decades ago when the top judge in the land, Lord Denning, well into his eighties and able to continue LEGALLY as long as he saw fit was obviously experiencing a form of dementia, which appeared to include the belief that he was the sole arbiter of truth, and made a series of appalling judgments and blunders, but, hey, elephant in the room, how dare anyone query the almighty Denning? If he'd had his way, and the law still allowed it, the 'Guildford Five' and 'Birmingham Six', all utterly innocent, would have been executed. Now, thankfully, judges have a retirement age before any more damage can be done. Physical fitness is needed to be a fire fighter but I'm sure there are many people in their 70's who are capable of driving a bus to the required standard, not that I'd have any wish to be doing so when I reach that age.
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Post by joefrombow on Nov 28, 2018 6:36:55 GMT
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Post by lonmark on Nov 28, 2018 7:42:48 GMT
That good. Managers can't ignore the rules.
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 28, 2018 9:11:03 GMT
And the people who turned a blind eye to reports on the standard of his driving.................
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Post by snoggle on Nov 28, 2018 12:39:08 GMT
I know they have to say something when asked but this comment from the senior Stagecoach person doesn't seem right to me. How on earth have they NOT ALREADY learnt all the detailed lessons and achieved a full understanding? It's three years after the event. The management errors and failings should have been identified and fully rectified within weeks. It's all basic stuff that they should be doing already. The only possible issue is around the lack of diagnosis of dementia given the apparent lack of visible symptoms. Even so the appalling driving record, repeated accidents and other issues should have led to the driver never driving a bus again no matter what the commercial / recruitment pressures there may have been on Stagecoach Midland Red.
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Post by danorak on Nov 28, 2018 17:09:00 GMT
I know they have to say something when asked but this comment from the senior Stagecoach person doesn't seem right to me. How on earth have they NOT ALREADY learnt all the detailed lessons and achieved a full understanding? It's three years after the event. The management errors and failings should have been identified and fully rectified within weeks. It's all basic stuff that they should be doing already. The only possible issue is around the lack of diagnosis of dementia given the apparent lack of visible symptoms. Even so the appalling driving record, repeated accidents and other issues should have led to the driver never driving a bus again no matter what the commercial / recruitment pressures there may have been on Stagecoach Midland Red. In fairness to Phil Medlicott, he's only been back in Stagecoach since the summer, and I think the statement is just the usual blurb you'd expect. There's also the ongoing learning about the relationship between age and driving that this may be referring to. None of which excuses earlier failings in this regard but I've encountered Mr Medlicott in the past and he's no mug.
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Post by busaholic on Nov 28, 2018 18:50:12 GMT
That's chicken feed for Stagecoach - a slight dip in their share price can easily wipe that off their value or, conversely, a gain in share price means they recoup that. If it was the USA we'd be talking hundreds of millions (okay, too far extreme in the other direction) and in many countries there'd be corporate management manslaughter charges, given the (as far as I know) UNCONTESTED evidence of management connivance. Instead, there is no indication of anyone being sacked or even having their role changed, as I'm sure Mr Medlicott would be savvy enough to mention it if they had. Now let's wait to hear the Traffic Commissioner's view on these events: my breath is far from bated, though.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 28, 2018 20:11:31 GMT
I know they have to say something when asked but this comment from the senior Stagecoach person doesn't seem right to me. How on earth have they NOT ALREADY learnt all the detailed lessons and achieved a full understanding? It's three years after the event. The management errors and failings should have been identified and fully rectified within weeks. It's all basic stuff that they should be doing already. The only possible issue is around the lack of diagnosis of dementia given the apparent lack of visible symptoms. Even so the appalling driving record, repeated accidents and other issues should have led to the driver never driving a bus again no matter what the commercial / recruitment pressures there may have been on Stagecoach Midland Red. In fairness to Phil Medlicott, he's only been back in Stagecoach since the summer, and I think the statement is just the usual blurb you'd expect. There's also the ongoing learning about the relationship between age and driving that this may be referring to. None of which excuses earlier failings in this regard but I've encountered Mr Medlicott in the past and he's no mug. I take your first point but I did acknowledge the statement made was "par for the course". You wouldn't expect any hyperbole nor a lot of detail as it keeps things as calm / uncontroversial as possible for Stagecoach when dealing with a potentially hostile media. I don't know Mr Meldicott but I did recognise the name but am unsure where from. In terms of the age / driving thing I would expect, possibly unfairly, that big bus operators would be reasonably au fait with known research and issues and would possibly be funding research into the issue. I would certainly expect compliance with the company's own rules and procedures which seems not to have applied in this dreadful case. As a complete aside I saw an age breakdown of working black cab drivers in London recently. There are still a few cab drivers in their 90s plying for hire and decent numbers in their 60s/70s/80s. The contrast is that there are very few young black cab drivers - presumably the trade is not an attractive proposition for younger people.
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Post by redbus on Nov 28, 2018 22:31:54 GMT
In fairness to Phil Medlicott, he's only been back in Stagecoach since the summer, and I think the statement is just the usual blurb you'd expect. There's also the ongoing learning about the relationship between age and driving that this may be referring to. None of which excuses earlier failings in this regard but I've encountered Mr Medlicott in the past and he's no mug. I take your first point but I did acknowledge the statement made was "par for the course". You wouldn't expect any hyperbole nor a lot of detail as it keeps things as calm / uncontroversial as possible for Stagecoach when dealing with a potentially hostile media. I don't know Mr Meldicott but I did recognise the name but am unsure where from. In terms of the age / driving thing I would expect, possibly unfairly, that big bus operators would be reasonably au fait with known research and issues and would possibly be funding research into the issue. I would certainly expect compliance with the company's own rules and procedures which seems not to have applied in this dreadful case. As a complete aside I saw an age breakdown of working black cab drivers in London recently. There are still a few cab drivers in their 90s plying for hire and decent numbers in their 60s/70s/80s. The contrast is that there are very few young black cab drivers - presumably the trade is not an attractive proposition for younger people. I think the black cab trade has changed significantly since the advent of Uber and the like. Much tougher to make decent money, yet all the high costs and having to undertake the 'knowledge' remain. New drivers are far more likely to go for the likes of Uber.
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