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Post by busaholic on Sept 24, 2018 23:09:43 GMT
I was hoping someone might remember better than I can that there WAS a bus route from Romford through the (then new) Dartford Tunnel soon after it opened in 1963. I believe it went to Orpington, after Dartford, and I'll try to rack my brain to remember what I can of its existence and rationale. Back in the early 1960s London Transport was the monopoly operator in the Orpington Rural District Council area, divided between Central Buses and Country Buses. Basically, anything north and west of Orpington was Central Bus territory, and anything east was Country Buses, but south was part Central, part Country. Importantly, in this regard, Downe was red bus (the 146) but was only served from Bromley: Biggin Hill was green bus (the 410, plus Green Line 705), but again only from Bromley. There were no buses to those places from Orpington, and LT refused to consider providing them, citing the narrowness of Jail Lane (between Downe and Biggin Hill) amongst other reasons. In these pre-GLC days, the whole area was in Kent (even Bromley itself) although this was to change from April 1965. A group of people, some of whom were associated with the Liberal Party, which had long been the main opposition to the Conservatives in the area, but very much a minority, started to agitate both about rail services from Orpington Station and the lack of bus connections to it. I seem to remember their going under the name of Orpington and District Public Transport Users' Association or somesuch, and their main spokesman being called Dr something or other. Anyway, they managed to persuade LT that they had a case to provide a bus service, given LT's refusal, and perhaps they used the imminent opening of the Dartford Tunnel to propose an ambitious through Tunnel service to connect major towns both north and south of the tunnel itself. The company providing the small buses (I hesitate to use the term minibuses) MAY have been called North Downs Rural Transport. You'll appreciate that pretty well none of this has ever got on to the internet, so far as I can see. What I will add is that Orpington experienced a famous by-election in 1964 in which Eric Lubbock achieved a momentous victory for the Liberals, which became a template for further victories up to more recent times. How long the Romford to Orpington (or, possibly, Biggin Hill) route lasted I wouldn't like to say, though I'd guess two years at most. It was plagued by delays from the start, from the little I remember. By the way, although I can't provide the precise genealogy, I'm fairly certain that Metrobus is a direct descendant from this arrangement, although there may be some 'out of wedlock' along the way! That's as honest an account as I can give from memory: although I didn't live too far away, it was far enough not to feature in our local newspaper, and my main interest, as a schoolboy, was in red buses, as it still is! A number of years ago Capital Transport published a very useful book that had all the old "independent" non LT bus services in it. Annoyingly I can't find my copy nor can I recall the title or find it on the internet. A lot of your memories align with what I recall. That small operation in and around Orpington grew to become Metrobus via various iterations along the way. I share your annoyance  , not on that particular book, as I think it passed me by, but somewhere I do have the history of all this, probably in a LOTS London Bus Magazine, but could have been anytime over the last thirty years. My attic is full of them, but I can no longer get into it (a combination of the attic's fullness and my own more recent incapacity). If I have a lightbulb moment at 4 a.m. I'll post! Only extra thing at this stage is that iirc Romford Market was the terminus. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 24, 2018 23:16:57 GMT
A number of years ago Capital Transport published a very useful book that had all the old "independent" non LT bus services in it. Annoyingly I can't find my copy nor can I recall the title or find it on the internet. A lot of your memories align with what I recall. That small operation in and around Orpington grew to become Metrobus via various iterations along the way. I share your annoyance , not on that particular book, as I think it passed me by, but somewhere I do have the history of all this, probably in a LOTS London Bus Magazine, but could have been anytime over the last thirty years. My attic is full of them, but I can no longer get into it (a combination of the attic's fullness and my own more recent incapacity). If I have a lightbulb moment at 4 a.m. I'll post! Only extra thing at this stage is that iirc Romford Market was the terminus. I have, via the wonders of the internet, found the book. It is London Transport Connections 1945-1985 by Philip Wallis. Well recommended if you like oddities. The link gives access to second hand copies of the book. www.alibris.co.uk/search/books/isbn/9781854142573?matches=3 |
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Post by busaholic on Sept 25, 2018 16:24:37 GMT
I share your annoyance , not on that particular book, as I think it passed me by, but somewhere I do have the history of all this, probably in a LOTS London Bus Magazine, but could have been anytime over the last thirty years. My attic is full of them, but I can no longer get into it (a combination of the attic's fullness and my own more recent incapacity). If I have a lightbulb moment at 4 a.m. I'll post! Only extra thing at this stage is that iirc Romford Market was the terminus. I have, via the wonders of the internet, found the book. It is London Transport Connections 1945-1985 by Philip Wallis. Well recommended if you like oddities. The link gives access to second hand copies of the book. www.alibris.co.uk/search/books/isbn/9781854142573?matches=3Thank you, I may well look into that. He's the guy who wrote the two volumes on London's night buses for Capital, which I felt I ought to buy, although I've only dipped into them a couple of times. |
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Post by wirewiper on Sept 25, 2018 18:34:54 GMT
I was hoping someone might remember better than I can that there WAS a bus route from Romford through the (then new) Dartford Tunnel soon after it opened in 1963. I believe it went to Orpington, after Dartford, and I'll try to rack my brain to remember what I can of its existence and rationale. Back in the early 1960s London Transport was the monopoly operator in the Orpington Rural District Council area, divided between Central Buses and Country Buses. Basically, anything north and west of Orpington was Central Bus territory, and anything east was Country Buses, but south was part Central, part Country. Importantly, in this regard, Downe was red bus (the 146) but was only served from Bromley: Biggin Hill was green bus (the 410, plus Green Line 705), but again only from Bromley. There were no buses to those places from Orpington, and LT refused to consider providing them, citing the narrowness of Jail Lane (between Downe and Biggin Hill) amongst other reasons. In these pre-GLC days, the whole area was in Kent (even Bromley itself) although this was to change from April 1965. A group of people, some of whom were associated with the Liberal Party, which had long been the main opposition to the Conservatives in the area, but very much a minority, started to agitate both about rail services from Orpington Station and the lack of bus connections to it. I seem to remember their going under the name of Orpington and District Public Transport Users' Association or somesuch, and their main spokesman being called Dr something or other. Anyway, they managed to persuade LT that they had a case to provide a bus service, given LT's refusal, and perhaps they used the imminent opening of the Dartford Tunnel to propose an ambitious through Tunnel service to connect major towns both north and south of the tunnel itself. The company providing the small buses (I hesitate to use the term minibuses) MAY have been called North Downs Rural Transport. You'll appreciate that pretty well none of this has ever got on to the internet, so far as I can see. What I will add is that Orpington experienced a famous by-election in 1964 in which Eric Lubbock achieved a momentous victory for the Liberals, which became a template for further victories up to more recent times. How long the Romford to Orpington (or, possibly, Biggin Hill) route lasted I wouldn't like to say, though I'd guess two years at most. It was plagued by delays from the start, from the little I remember. By the way, although I can't provide the precise genealogy, I'm fairly certain that Metrobus is a direct descendant from this arrangement, although there may be some 'out of wedlock' along the way! That's as honest an account as I can give from memory: although I didn't live too far away, it was far enough not to feature in our local newspaper, and my main interest, as a schoolboy, was in red buses, as it still is! I think you are conflating two separate services here. Certainly there were a lot of services in the rural hinterland to the South of Orpington, and later to the Forestdale Estate on the edge of Addington (another location that London Transport seemed not to want to serve) that were provided by a series of small, independent operators. These paved the way for the formation of Metrobus in 1983. The "Tunnel Express" was a different animal entirely. Thames Weald was started by an eccentric consultant psychiatrist, Dr Nesbit Heffernan. He worked at one of the many psychiatric hospitals in the area around Dartford, and in 1961 he started a Kingsdown-Gravesend service to replace a withdrawn London Country route. The Dartford Tunnel opened in November 1963 and initially London Transport provided a Grays-Dartford route (300) and also extended Green Line 722 from Corbets Tey to to Dartford. The Green Line extension lasted less than a year, whilst the bus route struggled on until May 1967. In August 1967 Thames Weald started the "Tunnel Express" which ran from Romford to Sevenoaks - and from July 1971 to January 1974 it ran on to Crawley. The route continued until the late 1990s when Dr Heffernan was refused a further licence due to his great age. Thames Weald had some operational problems in the latter half of the 1970s, and may have been assisted by one of the Orpington area operators during this period. Other than that there appears to be no connection between the Orpington operators and the "Tunnel Express". |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 25, 2018 19:08:34 GMT
The "Tunnel Express" was a different animal entirely. Thames Weald was started by an eccentric consultant psychiatrist, Dr Nesbit Heffernan. He worked at one of the many psychiatric hospitals in the area around Dartford, and in 1961 he started a Kingsdown-Gravesend service to replace a withdrawn London Country route. The Dartford Tunnel opened in November 1963 and initially London Transport provided a Grays-Dartford route (300) and also extended Green Line 722 from Corbets Tey to to Dartford. The Green Line extension lasted less than a year, whilst the bus route struggled on until May 1967. In August 1967 Thames Weald started the "Tunnel Express" which ran from Romford to Sevenoaks - and from July 1971 to January 1974 it ran on to Crawley. The route continued until the late 1990s when Dr Heffernan was refused a further licence due to his great age. Thames Weald had some operational problems in the latter half of the 1970s, and may have been assisted by one of the Orpington area operators during this period. Other than that there appears to be no connection between the Orpington operators and the "Tunnel Express". This is a rather fun anecdote about Dr Hefferman and the bus service. www.signal-training.com/ebeg/Archive/Heffernan.pdf |
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Post by snowman on Sept 25, 2018 19:20:58 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Sept 25, 2018 19:25:33 GMT
Apparently Leon Daniels owns the only surviving one which is in store awaiting preservation. |
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Post by londonbuses2018 on Sept 25, 2018 19:28:10 GMT
Will the N9 Get SRM Type Buses?
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Post by cl54 on Sept 25, 2018 19:33:17 GMT
Apparently Leon Daniels owns the only surviving one which is in store awaiting preservation. He does and if/when the new Blackwall Tunnels open there will be vehicles to carry cyclists through them. |
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Post by busoccultation on Sept 25, 2018 19:51:32 GMT
Will the N9 Get SRM Type Buses? No it won't use those Wright SRM's, but it is due to move to V some point soon with using the LT's from the 9. |
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Post by localet44 on Sept 25, 2018 19:57:55 GMT
I share your annoyance , not on that particular book, as I think it passed me by, but somewhere I do have the history of all this, probably in a LOTS London Bus Magazine, but could have been anytime over the last thirty years. My attic is full of them, but I can no longer get into it (a combination of the attic's fullness and my own more recent incapacity). If I have a lightbulb moment at 4 a.m. I'll post! Only extra thing at this stage is that iirc Romford Market was the terminus. I have, via the wonders of the internet, found the book. It is London Transport Connections 1945-1985 by Philip Wallis. Well recommended if you like oddities. The link gives access to second hand copies of the book. www.alibris.co.uk/search/books/isbn/9781854142573?matches=3I have checked my copy of Philip Wallis' "London Transport Connections 1945 - 1985" book. The Tunnel Express service started from Romford to Sevenoaks on 19 August 1967.
Extended weekdays to Crawley on 10 July 1971 and became Romford to Sevenoaks again on 7 January 1974. Reduced in 1976 to operate Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays only. On 3 June 1982 increased to Weekdays. On 14 December 1982 reduced to operate Wednesdays to Saturdays only. On 3 July 1984, a Saturday journey introduced between Romford and Maidstone. Service withdrawn 12 July 1985. |
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Post by busaholic on Sept 25, 2018 20:15:30 GMT
I was hoping someone might remember better than I can that there WAS a bus route from Romford through the (then new) Dartford Tunnel soon after it opened in 1963. I believe it went to Orpington, after Dartford, and I'll try to rack my brain to remember what I can of its existence and rationale. Back in the early 1960s London Transport was the monopoly operator in the Orpington Rural District Council area, divided between Central Buses and Country Buses. Basically, anything north and west of Orpington was Central Bus territory, and anything east was Country Buses, but south was part Central, part Country. Importantly, in this regard, Downe was red bus (the 146) but was only served from Bromley: Biggin Hill was green bus (the 410, plus Green Line 705), but again only from Bromley. There were no buses to those places from Orpington, and LT refused to consider providing them, citing the narrowness of Jail Lane (between Downe and Biggin Hill) amongst other reasons. In these pre-GLC days, the whole area was in Kent (even Bromley itself) although this was to change from April 1965. A group of people, some of whom were associated with the Liberal Party, which had long been the main opposition to the Conservatives in the area, but very much a minority, started to agitate both about rail services from Orpington Station and the lack of bus connections to it. I seem to remember their going under the name of Orpington and District Public Transport Users' Association or somesuch, and their main spokesman being called Dr something or other. Anyway, they managed to persuade LT that they had a case to provide a bus service, given LT's refusal, and perhaps they used the imminent opening of the Dartford Tunnel to propose an ambitious through Tunnel service to connect major towns both north and south of the tunnel itself. The company providing the small buses (I hesitate to use the term minibuses) MAY have been called North Downs Rural Transport. You'll appreciate that pretty well none of this has ever got on to the internet, so far as I can see. What I will add is that Orpington experienced a famous by-election in 1964 in which Eric Lubbock achieved a momentous victory for the Liberals, which became a template for further victories up to more recent times. How long the Romford to Orpington (or, possibly, Biggin Hill) route lasted I wouldn't like to say, though I'd guess two years at most. It was plagued by delays from the start, from the little I remember. By the way, although I can't provide the precise genealogy, I'm fairly certain that Metrobus is a direct descendant from this arrangement, although there may be some 'out of wedlock' along the way! That's as honest an account as I can give from memory: although I didn't live too far away, it was far enough not to feature in our local newspaper, and my main interest, as a schoolboy, was in red buses, as it still is! I think you are conflating two separate services here. Certainly there were a lot of services in the rural hinterland to the South of Orpington, and later to the Forestdale Estate on the edge of Addington (another location that London Transport seemed not to want to serve) that were provided by a series of small, independent operators. These paved the way for the formation of Metrobus in 1983. The "Tunnel Express" was a different animal entirely. Thames Weald was started by an eccentric consultant psychiatrist, Dr Nesbit Heffernan. He worked at one of the many psychiatric hospitals in the area around Dartford, and in 1961 he started a Kingsdown-Gravesend service to replace a withdrawn London Country route. The Dartford Tunnel opened in November 1963 and initially London Transport provided a Grays-Dartford route (300) and also extended Green Line 722 from Corbets Tey to to Dartford. The Green Line extension lasted less than a year, whilst the bus route struggled on until May 1967. In August 1967 Thames Weald started the "Tunnel Express" which ran from Romford to Sevenoaks - and from July 1971 to January 1974 it ran on to Crawley. The route continued until the late 1990s when Dr Heffernan was refused a further licence due to his great age. Thames Weald had some operational problems in the latter half of the 1970s, and may have been assisted by one of the Orpington area operators during this period. Other than that there appears to be no connection between the Orpington operators and the "Tunnel Express". Yes, funny how it starts to come back when somebody spells it out properly!! Oh well, 2/10 I suppose for remembering there was a Dr. involved and also that there was a service to Romford. Thames Weald and North Downs are very similar names too. I'm truly surprised to learn the Romford to Sevenoaks service lasted so long, especially with the M25 opening in the area in the mid 1980s and adding so much extra traffic. Do you know how many journeys operated on a weekday and exactly how 'express' it was? Shan't need to buy that book now. |
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Post by COBO on Sept 26, 2018 1:09:27 GMT
What’s the restriction that prevents the E5 from getting single deckers longer than 9.6m?
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Post by wirewiper on Sept 26, 2018 9:54:42 GMT
I have checked my copy of Philip Wallis' "London Transport Connections 1945 - 1985" book. The Tunnel Express service started from Romford to Sevenoaks on 19 August 1967.
Extended weekdays to Crawley on 10 July 1971 and became Romford to Sevenoaks again on 7 January 1974. Reduced in 1976 to operate Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays only. On 3 June 1982 increased to Weekdays. On 14 December 1982 reduced to operate Wednesdays to Saturdays only. On 3 July 1984, a Saturday journey introduced between Romford and Maidstone. Service withdrawn 12 July 1985.
The Tunnel Express wasn't withdrawn on 12th July 1985 - that is the date parameter of Mr Wallis's book and at that date it is listed as "Extant". I don't know the detailed history of the route after that date but it continued until 1998, when Dr Heffernan, by now in his 80s, was refused a further licence due to health reasons - by this time the route had morphed into a Dartford-Southend service. Dr Heffernan died in 2000. I came across a remnant of the Tunnel Express in September 2013 in Hacton Lane, Hornchurch, just south of the junction where the 193 route turns off to serve the Estate. It was a bus stop. Someone added a comment that this was originally a Super Coaches of Upminster* stop flag and had been "bequeathed" to Dr Heffernan after Super stopped running - there is no record of any Super Coaches services having operated along that stretch of Hacton Lane. The stop has since been taken down. Incidentally the name "Thames Weald" is fictional and was a product of Dr Heffernan's lively imagination - there is no such place in reality! * Upminster, like Orpington, was another area where a host of small and often interconnected operators ran a fascinating range of services at the margins of London's bus network  Abandoned Bus Stop by Julian Walker, on Flickr |
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Post by TB141 on Sept 26, 2018 17:08:09 GMT
Anyone knowing the answers to these questions which I'm curious about? 1. Has a DD route ever been converted to SD, and remained SD ever since. 2. 24hour SD routes are around of course, such as 108, but are there any N prefixed SD routes. I'm sure there must be but I can't remember seeing one. 3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 1 I don't know how far back you want to go but the 146 was RT/RM until OPO conversion and it's been single decker ever since as the route is unsuitable for larger double deckers. 2 Not that I can think of. 3 I have suggested a Bexleyheath to Lakeside service before. It still amazes me that they ever managed to get RMs round the 146 route. The roads must have changed substantially in the intervening years as not even a long single deck can be used on it now. |
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, not on that particular book, as I think it passed me by, but somewhere I do have the history of all this, probably in a LOTS London Bus Magazine, but could have been anytime over the last thirty years. My attic is full of them, but I can no longer get into it (a combination of the attic's fullness and my own more recent incapacity). If I have a lightbulb moment at 4 a.m. I'll post! Only extra thing at this stage is that iirc Romford Market was the terminus.
