sla27
Conductor
Posts: 75
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Post by sla27 on Oct 22, 2018 14:34:50 GMT
BVG, the transport company in Berlin, has today confirmed an order for 13.8m ADL E500s.
Two will enter service in 2020 with a further 70 to follow subject to satisfactory performance. Minimum total of buses projected at 200. This allows BVG to select an all-electric option.
Further details on omnibuz.news (in German) or alexander-dennis.com,
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sla27
Conductor
Posts: 75
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Post by sla27 on Oct 22, 2018 16:19:26 GMT
Apologies for the overactive predictive text in the thread heading!!
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Post by snowman on Oct 22, 2018 16:40:28 GMT
The ADL site says 200 buses with up to 430 buses at a value of Euro 220m which is £200m
3 doors, 2 staircases (where have I heard that before ?)
80 seats, that is more than anything in London. But then some Operators are encouraging usage by providing good environment for passengers, rather than providing basic rattling vehicles.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 22, 2018 20:49:32 GMT
That's a very big success for ADL but I wonder how long it will be before local Berlin politicians turn round and demand that BVG buy German buses. This is pretty standard form on transport contracts - more rail concessions than buses - but I can't see this remaining uncontentious for long.
Nevertheless well done to ADL for working out a viable design and contract package that appeals to the BVG Board.
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Post by planesandtrains on Oct 22, 2018 22:31:50 GMT
That's a very big success for ADL but I wonder how long it will be before local Berlin politicians turn round and demand that BVG buy German buses. This is pretty standard form on transport contracts - more rail concessions than buses - but I can't see this remaining uncontentious for long. Nevertheless well done to ADL for working out a viable design and contract package that appeals to the BVG Board. They ordered hundreds of VDL's and Scanias without problems, these things have to be done through EU wide tendering to my knowledge.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 22, 2018 23:05:33 GMT
That's a very big success for ADL but I wonder how long it will be before local Berlin politicians turn round and demand that BVG buy German buses. This is pretty standard form on transport contracts - more rail concessions than buses - but I can't see this remaining uncontentious for long. Nevertheless well done to ADL for working out a viable design and contract package that appeals to the BVG Board. They ordered hundreds of VDL's and Scanias without problems, these things have to be done through EU wide tendering to my knowledge. Well yes but there has been a mix of single deckers for a number of years in the BVG fleet. Ordering British buses for the "iconic" Berlin double deck routes has the potential to cause a fuss. Look at the ludicrous nonsense we had here over various fleet policy decisions by TfL. The same nonsense applies in France where SNCF effectively can't buy a high speed train unless it is made by Alstom. Domestic considerations often loom large in public sector procurement decisions or emerge afterwards when someone challenges the decision. What is not clear is if ADL have waited for the 10 day contract standstill period to pass before making an announcement. Let's hope they have. And you're quite correct that EU wide tendering rules apply. Given looming Brexit ADL have timed the win very well in one context. It is noteworthy that ADL have said they may establish a factory in mainland Europe to manufacture this order. I assume that is to ensure as frictionless purchase of components as possible given they won't have a clue how much such things will cost or how long it will take to deliver them after 29 March 2019 if these buses were built in the UK. More UK jobs potentially exported.
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sla27
Conductor
Posts: 75
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Post by sla27 on Oct 23, 2018 10:42:59 GMT
Further press coverage in Berlin states that the current MAN vehicles are not only heavy but very very thirsty. Apparently, BVG awarded the contract to ADL over bids from other manufacturers. (Not named in the article.)
Frankfurt took a Berlin DD on trial relatively recently but returned it rapidly. Wonder whether this E500 will open other doors...
Would ADL really open a new factory for a relatively small order?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 23, 2018 11:22:05 GMT
Further press coverage in Berlin states that the current MAN vehicles are not only heavy but very very thirsty. Apparently, BVG awarded the contract to ADL over bids from other manufacturers. (Not named in the article.) Frankfurt took a Berlin DD on trial relatively recently but returned it rapidly. Wonder whether this E500 will open other doors... Would ADL really open a new factory for a relatively small order? Depends on what their strategy is longer term. The order is for a maximum of 430 buses over several years - that's a good order size and we know they've won other orders for Swiss Post Bus and, IIRC, Lausanne as well. They will also need to provide BVG with a parts and support service. You don't leave a new customer with no ongoing support for warranty and other issues. I was referencing a news article from yesterday that quoted ADL when mentioning the possibility of a new factory. It wasn't me just musing out loud. I've certainly read that the MAN Lion Cities are pretty thirsty vehicles and it's inevitable that they'll be heavy with three axles, three doors and two staircases. I still think they're great vehicles though. Most European bus manufacturers tend to build heavyweight vehicles. It's the UK that's pushed for lighter vehicles - probably because of deregulated operators wanting their costs to be as low as possible. If ADL can make their buses work in Berlin then I'd suggest, given the adaptability of the design, that they may well win orders from elsewhere in mainland Europe. An all electric low height double decker could be an attractive prospect for some cities.
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sla27
Conductor
Posts: 75
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Post by sla27 on Oct 23, 2018 17:04:59 GMT
Just checked the article in a Berlin paper. The current MANs consumption is given as 60 litres per 100 km
To clarify one of my previous posts. I was not suggesting for one moment that Mr Snoggle was missing out loud. We had obviously come across the same comment re the new factory.
The article I read earlier suggests the BVG bosses are not at all impressed with the present Chinese electric buses which would not get near the standards of reliability required. I seem to recall that Berlin has also had problems with hybrids
All in all, though, ADL have done fantastically well to get this deal.
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Post by ServerKing on Oct 29, 2018 12:14:29 GMT
That's a very big success for ADL but I wonder how long it will be before local Berlin politicians turn round and demand that BVG buy German buses. This is pretty standard form on transport contracts - more rail concessions than buses - but I can't see this remaining uncontentious for long. Nevertheless well done to ADL for working out a viable design and contract package that appeals to the BVG Board. They ordered hundreds of VDL's and Scanias without problems, these things have to be done through EU wide tendering to my knowledge. Who knows what the EU deal that Maybot has secured really involves? I think there will be no great change to trade as they realise the damage it will do to both parties after Brexit... (Who will buy all their luxury cars once we've gone?) We will still keep EU Emissions standards and our goods will have to be EU standard compliant if we hope to sell to the EU in future. Still, well done to ADL. In other news, Belgium has bought US made F35 jets for their military over the Eurofighters which has upset Macron So I think people realise there's life outside the EU bubble
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Post by thebusguy on Oct 29, 2018 13:07:04 GMT
Before we know ADL will leave the UK and move to the EU
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Post by snowman on Oct 29, 2018 13:41:19 GMT
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Oct 31, 2018 21:50:01 GMT
Apologies for the overactive predictive text in the thread heading!! I thought I'd do a small favour and fix that Having seen the photos, I wish something like that made it to the UK... Or even Poland!
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sla27
Conductor
Posts: 75
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Post by sla27 on Nov 1, 2018 18:53:59 GMT
Apologies for the overactive predictive text in the thread heading!! I thought I'd do a small favour and fix that Having seen the photos, I wish something like that made it to the UK... Or even Poland! To return the favour here's some speculation. Wouldn't be totally surprised for E500s to enter service in the UK (though may not be London) as Volvo is developing a tri-axle 'decker. Could see a demand in Frankfurt. As for Poland, you would know better! Just to stress that where the E500 and its counterparts end up is not based on rumours or fact but speculation.
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Post by wirewiper on Nov 3, 2018 16:53:09 GMT
I thought I'd do a small favour and fix that Having seen the photos, I wish something like that made it to the UK... Or even Poland! To return the favour here's some speculation. Wouldn't be totally surprised for E500s to enter service in the UK (though may not be London) as Volvo is developing a tri-axle 'decker. Could see a demand in Frankfurt. As for Poland, you would know better! Just to stress that where the E500 and its counterparts end up is not based on rumours or fact but speculation. The E500 also has a considerable toehold in North America and Asia. For what little I know about the subject, the Wikipedia page on the Enviro500 seems quite informative. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Dennis_Enviro500#United_Kingdom
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