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Post by busaholic on Nov 1, 2018 0:08:12 GMT
Once again, an alternative mode somewhere between BRT and tram both in concept and cost goes unmentioned - the trolleybus. Progressive fleets in different parts of the world e.g. Berlin are rediscovering this emission-free bus, now with the ability to work considerable distances off-wire, that doesn't have so much space occupied by batteries and, given its own roads to operate on, has the potential acceleration of a tram. A great opportunity to see whether the concept could work again in London was lost with the EL routes, I always felt. The problem is that the legislative and regulatory framework in the UK is extremely unclear. There are apparently significant legal issues about how you would actually seek powers to build a trolleybus network and especially things like fixing wire spans to buildings etc. It's also pretty clear to me that TfL is extremely averse to adding any additional infrastructure on the road network that would require long term maintenance, repair and later upgrading and replacement. It had no choice with Tramlink but look at the millions spent to get the track back into decent condition and now we have the not insignificant safety recommendations that are partly complete but others remain under research / implementation. I suspect things like tougher glass fitted in tram windows is not an easy thing to do because of the weight impacts on the trams themselves, how it may increase body stress and also track damage. These things are all related and interconnected. I can't see TfL wanting any sort of repeat of the fall out from the Croydon crash involving trolleybuses. Heck we're headed to the position where normal buses in London will have a man with a red flag in front of them and carrying no passengers so the Mayor can ensure no one is killed or injured on the bus network. Simples - carry no passengers. We also have next to zero professional competence in trolleybus wiring design / installation / maintenance. You'd have to bring in the Swiss to get it done properly. I'm personally not averse to trolleybuses at all - I'd be very happy to have lots of them in London but rechargeable electric buses are clearly the preferred strategy for TfL and even then only in selected places. There is no push at all to "electrify" outer London's bus routes. Yes, I know it's going to be a stretch in all sorts of ways to see their return here, and it probably won't happen, certainly in my lifetime. The lack of trolleybus manufacturers now is also a problem, though I'm sure both tram and bus producers would oblige if they thought there was a market. I'd certainly go with a triaL route which didn't involve too much interaction with other road traffic, so segregated like, for instance, much of Tramlink. Croydon worries me; i've seen credible unsensationalised reports which suggest some of the bad habits may be returning, and the management/driver relationship remains strained and unexamined by public enquiry. Nobody wants a repeat of that dreadful occurrence but has enough been done to prevent another?
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Post by vjaska on Nov 1, 2018 2:36:42 GMT
If its going to be in a bus form they could do like a similar scheme as in the East London transport routes the theme for the ELT routes is orange, so why not that exact branding and make it green or something like that? And call the routes like SL1, SL2 etc and brand it ‘South London Transit’ you’re welcome Judging by the proposals, it will actually be a proper BRT scheme rather than what the EL routes are which are standard routes with a few pockets of bus priority thrown in. If they end up doing anything like the EL routes, then they may as well not bother at all because it will just be a tarted up 164.
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 1, 2018 11:43:27 GMT
Interesting that the map seems to indicate a lot of on road running on the two initially preferred options. How much of the route is suitable for twin tram tracks unless the trams do not get dedicated road space. I think we are seeing a return to on street running for many sections. I suspect it will be off carriageway parking, and probably some dedicated sections (or more likely mix of bus lane and tram only) approaching some of the major junctions. I suspect the extra cost of some dive-unders at roundabouts means they wont happen (although single deck trams can operate through much narrower and lower tunnels than buses. I have recently read that nowadays techniques exist for very quick (minimally disruptive) track laying. One of those crawler mounted diamond saws (the sort you see on motorway works with a round blade about 1.5m diameter) cuts 2 slots. A special excavator/planer removes the tarmac etc. A concrete strip foundation is laid in the trench. The trench is plated over whilst concrete cures. A second trench is cut for the other rail in similar way. The rails are then laid and remainder of cut backfilled. Apparently can be done in sections overnight. Also appears standard practice is to lay spare cable tubes at intervals across the road so utilities dont need to dig up track later. Biggest problem is cables just below surface need to be relocated deeper out of way of tracks. Don't know relative cost vs complete road closure. A BRT with lots on on-street running is not much more than a standard bus route though! How many of those roads are wide enough for a two way BRT and still be available to other traffic ,.. some may, but not many .... I would need to see the plans in far greater detail before I could say which option I would support. If it is BRT, will other routes sharing common sections be allowed to use it with its limited stop, or will existing buses and their users have to compete with other traffic for the remainder scarce road space moving at a snails pace? The current Tramlink works because it is mainly off-street.
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Post by joefrombow on Nov 2, 2018 6:37:37 GMT
I'm all for BRT in London think it's a fantastic idea especially with zero emission buses would save a lot of money instead of building a heavy or even Light rail system , but can we have the ELT finished or upgraded in certain places to this standard first before we move to Sutton I know I'm biased being an East Londoner but if you start something finish it properly lol !
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Post by busman on Nov 2, 2018 7:13:13 GMT
I'm all for BRT in London think it's a fantastic idea especially with zero emission buses would save a lot of money instead of building a heavy or even Light rail system , but can we have the ELT finished or upgraded in certain places to this standard first before we move to Sutton I know I'm biased being an East Londoner but if you start something finish it properly lol ! BRT is not cheaper than tram. The consultation makes the point that trams have a higher initial setup cost, but once operational and maintenance costs are factored in tram is cheaper than BRT. In addition each tram has greater capacity, faster journeys and has less of a knock on impact on conventional traffic. Also it is normal and sensible to have multiple infrastructure projects running simultaneously. Why should developments in other parts of London be put on hold until the ELT is finished? The ELT is no more than a branded bus network. It can only be fully rolled out in conjunction with new housing developments and isn’t going to be anything like the Sutton scheme. East London has the ELT, SE London has the 472, but let’s not begrudge anyone else faster public transport links 😆
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Post by northken on Nov 2, 2018 8:47:32 GMT
Hmm, this may explain why TfL recently visited Bristol's new guided Metrobus infrastructure...
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Post by snoggle on Nov 2, 2018 16:20:05 GMT
Hmm, this may explain why TfL recently visited Bristol's new guided Metrobus infrastructure... They only need to pop down to Crawley to see some guided busways. I've not yet seen anything very positive about the Bristol Metrobus scheme but then saying anything about Bristol's buses is very hard given the horrific traffic conditions and its impacct on operations. I know Metrobus is an attempt to provide some decent priority but it doesn't seem to fit alongside First's commercial network very well. Unless I am misunderstanding TfL's stated intentions I'd have thought the scheme at Gosport and Fareham is more what TfL have in mind for Sutton - segregated, but not guided, bus only roads.
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Post by portman227 on Nov 4, 2018 17:17:50 GMT
Surely there are more benefits to Option 3 as the network connects far more people and serves more areas, Option 2 and Option 1 seem the safest and sensible option but I'm not sure why BRT needs to be introduced when electrics buses can be used. I think Option 1 and 2 routing is a bit short and a 5 minute frequency headway is a bit too much tbh
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Post by busaholic on Nov 4, 2018 17:57:08 GMT
Surely there are more benefits to Option 3 as the network connects far more people and serves more areas, Option 2 and Option 1 seem the safest and sensible option but I'm not sure why BRT needs to be introduced when electrics buses can be used. I think Option 1 and 2 routing is a bit short and a 5 minute frequency headway is a bit too much tbh Option 3 would have to get by Monty Python (i.e. the Holy Grayl) though to a much larger extent than the others, unless he's fallen on his sword by then (fat chance.)
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 4, 2018 17:59:12 GMT
Surely there are more benefits to Option 3 as the network connects far more people and serves more areas, Option 2 and Option 1 seem the safest and sensible option but I'm not sure why BRT needs to be introduced when electrics buses can be used. I think Option 1 and 2 routing is a bit short and a 5 minute frequency headway is a bit too much tbh If you are going to have electric buses in Sutton, go back in time PLEASE!! Not my photo Attachment Deleted
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Post by busaholic on Nov 4, 2018 18:25:49 GMT
Surely there are more benefits to Option 3 as the network connects far more people and serves more areas, Option 2 and Option 1 seem the safest and sensible option but I'm not sure why BRT needs to be introduced when electrics buses can be used. I think Option 1 and 2 routing is a bit short and a 5 minute frequency headway is a bit too much tbh If you are going to have electric buses in Sutton, go back in time PLEASE!! Not my photo And build a depot in Carshalton.
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