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Post by SILENCED on Jan 12, 2020 15:07:11 GMT
I have to say assessing the Croydon Town Centre bus changes two months in. I think these changes have been quite positive for the area. West Croydon bus station seems less congested with its current crop of terminating routes than before. People have adapted quite quickly. I’m sure routes 60 and 407 have become even more popular due to their cross Croydon links and also the frequency increase for the former and the double deck conversion of the latter. One of the rare examples where TfL changes were for the good. I agree with this but one thing they still haven't sorted is that the apparent last stop for route 197 is Park Street when the buses just go direct to the stand at Fairfield Halls. Croydon Town Centre looks more of a dump then I have ever seen it though and I do hope the Westfield development starts soon. Westfield Croydon will never happen ... even if it does it will be nothing like Stratford ... the bottom has fallen out of the retail sector ... Noone in their right mind would want to spend money developing a huge intown shopping centre
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Post by vjaska on Jan 12, 2020 16:10:04 GMT
People shouldn’t have to adapt though especially when a number of routes have been cut short of their important destinations particularly the 405 & 412 - I personally wouldn’t call it positive and the changes besides the 60 & 407 don’t exactly attract people to the town centre. Be careful what you wish for because TfL will likely go further in the future if they see further endorsements because it’s very clear that bus users are 0% importance in any changes. We will have to agree to disagree on this. Routes 405 and 412 still reach Croydon Town Centre which is in itself an important destination. From my observations most people get off at West Croydon coming from the north and Croydon Town Centre (Park Street/ Croydon Library/ Croydon Flyover) from the south as people like to walk through the town centre to get their destinations i.e shops and banks etc. Of course, I agree in most cases that TfL do not prioritise bus users in their consultations i.e route 48 but in the Croydon bus changes consultation it was clear that were they conducted in depth research in bus usage across Croydon and came to quite insightful conclusions. This was evident by the willingness to change some of the changes which were originally proposed. The 405 & 412 reach the tip of the town centre rather than serving a larger majority before the cuts thus reducing accessibility for those who are less abled and also forcing people to change buses to reach important objectives like West Croydon Station. I disagree that conclusive research was done personally - the changes were done merely to suit the Westfield development and any traffic chaos that might arise rather than anything to do with the needs of bus passengers who again have been shunted to the bottom as usual. If conclusive research was done, more changes would of been reversed and a proper study into how to mitigate traffic during construction rather than simply penalise bus users as a default position especially given it was the borough of Croydon that had passenger growth but yet in tandem, has had many cuts. The irony in all this is that Westfield is unlikely to happen so it would be all for nothing and we’re probably unlikely to see changes reversed either when Westfield doesn’t transpire.
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Post by greenboy on Jan 12, 2020 16:49:21 GMT
I have to say assessing the Croydon Town Centre bus changes two months in. I think these changes have been quite positive for the area. West Croydon bus station seems less congested with its current crop of terminating routes than before. People have adapted quite quickly. I’m sure routes 60 and 407 have become even more popular due to their cross Croydon links and also the frequency increase for the former and the double deck conversion of the latter. One of the rare examples where TfL changes were for the good. Yes congestion at West Croydon bus station and on Wellesley Road has been reduced. What is ridiculous is that buses on the 405 are still displaying South Croydon as they are unable to display the correct blind. With the Westfield development now seemingly dead in the water Croydon Town centre is becoming more residential with tower blocks going up at an alarming rate.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 12, 2020 17:20:26 GMT
I have to say assessing the Croydon Town Centre bus changes two months in. I think these changes have been quite positive for the area. West Croydon bus station seems less congested with its current crop of terminating routes than before. People have adapted quite quickly. I’m sure routes 60 and 407 have become even more popular due to their cross Croydon links and also the frequency increase for the former and the double deck conversion of the latter. One of the rare examples where TfL changes were for the good. Yes congestion at West Croydon bus station and on Wellesley Road has been reduced. What is ridiculous is that buses on the 405 are still displaying South Croydon as they are unable to display the correct blind. With the Westfield development now seemingly dead in the water Croydon Town centre is becoming more residential with tower blocks going up at an alarming rate. Of course, this congestion could of been removed without having to attack buses and decrease accessibility but the traffic planners & TfL equally continue to stick their hands in their ears and pretend everything is ok.
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Post by busaholic on Jan 12, 2020 19:28:38 GMT
Yes congestion at West Croydon bus station and on Wellesley Road has been reduced. What is ridiculous is that buses on the 405 are still displaying South Croydon as they are unable to display the correct blind. With the Westfield development now seemingly dead in the water Croydon Town centre is becoming more residential with tower blocks going up at an alarming rate. Of course, this congestion could of been removed without having to attack buses and decrease accessibility but the traffic planners & TfL equally continue to stick their hands in their ears and pretend everything is ok. If only Croydon Council had retained North End as a bus and pedestrian only zone, or even allowed Tramlink to use it. On a Saturday, the crowds used to pour out of Allders, Debenhams, Littlewoods and Woolworths, plus the very popular Whitgift Centre and form huge queues at the bus stops. A 68 might arrive with half a dozen passengers on board and depart full and standing for Thornton Heath High St etc and ditto for the 109 and 190 up to Thornton Heath Pond and beyond. But property moguls arrived flashing their cash and promises, council officials and councillors (even the uncorrupt ones) were seduced and you got the totally unnecessary Centrale to help undermine the Whitgift, beyond the extent to which the new owners of Allders were helping that process along, and the protracted saga of building Tramlink got rid of remaining trade in George Street and helped Surrey Street go rapidly even further downhill. Now Westfield come along with empty promises, and a new generation of councillors and officials come along, moths to the flame. Pah! If I were a Croydon ratepayer I'd be beyond angry.
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Post by greenboy on Jan 12, 2020 20:48:17 GMT
Of course, this congestion could of been removed without having to attack buses and decrease accessibility but the traffic planners & TfL equally continue to stick their hands in their ears and pretend everything is ok. If only Croydon Council had retained North End as a bus and pedestrian only zone, or even allowed Tramlink to use it. On a Saturday, the crowds used to pour out of Allders, Debenhams, Littlewoods and Woolworths, plus the very popular Whitgift Centre and form huge queues at the bus stops. A 68 might arrive with half a dozen passengers on board and depart full and standing for Thornton Heath High St etc and ditto for the 109 and 190 up to Thornton Heath Pond and beyond. But property moguls arrived flashing their cash and promises, council officials and councillors (even the uncorrupt ones) were seduced and you got the totally unnecessary Centrale to help undermine the Whitgift, beyond the extent to which the new owners of Allders were helping that process along, and the protracted saga of building Tramlink got rid of remaining trade in George Street and helped Surrey Street go rapidly even further downhill. Now Westfield come along with empty promises, and a new generation of councillors and officials come along, moths to the flame. Pah! If I were a Croydon ratepayer I'd be beyond angry. North End was open to buses only for a time, I think that changed for safety reasons as much as anything else? Times have changed since then and crowds aren't pouring in or out of anywhere nowadays. When Westfield was proposed nobody could have forseen how much shopping habits would change.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 12, 2020 22:23:51 GMT
If only Croydon Council had retained North End as a bus and pedestrian only zone, or even allowed Tramlink to use it. On a Saturday, the crowds used to pour out of Allders, Debenhams, Littlewoods and Woolworths, plus the very popular Whitgift Centre and form huge queues at the bus stops. A 68 might arrive with half a dozen passengers on board and depart full and standing for Thornton Heath High St etc and ditto for the 109 and 190 up to Thornton Heath Pond and beyond. But property moguls arrived flashing their cash and promises, council officials and councillors (even the uncorrupt ones) were seduced and you got the totally unnecessary Centrale to help undermine the Whitgift, beyond the extent to which the new owners of Allders were helping that process along, and the protracted saga of building Tramlink got rid of remaining trade in George Street and helped Surrey Street go rapidly even further downhill. Now Westfield come along with empty promises, and a new generation of councillors and officials come along, moths to the flame. Pah! If I were a Croydon ratepayer I'd be beyond angry. North End was open to buses only for a time, I think that changed for safety reasons as much as anything else? Times have changed since then and crowds aren't pouring in or out of anywhere nowadays. When Westfield was proposed nobody could have forseen how much shopping habits would change. A similar system has operated in Oxford for years where buses & shoppers share a pedestrianised road together and it seems to work without too much issues. I’ve long thought that pedestrianisation has actually been part of the falling demand due to decreasing the access to shops for all traffic especially in Croydon where buses & trams are routed around the actual objective the passengers want to get to bar the railway stations.
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Post by busaholic on Jan 12, 2020 23:28:30 GMT
If only Croydon Council had retained North End as a bus and pedestrian only zone, or even allowed Tramlink to use it. On a Saturday, the crowds used to pour out of Allders, Debenhams, Littlewoods and Woolworths, plus the very popular Whitgift Centre and form huge queues at the bus stops. A 68 might arrive with half a dozen passengers on board and depart full and standing for Thornton Heath High St etc and ditto for the 109 and 190 up to Thornton Heath Pond and beyond. But property moguls arrived flashing their cash and promises, council officials and councillors (even the uncorrupt ones) were seduced and you got the totally unnecessary Centrale to help undermine the Whitgift, beyond the extent to which the new owners of Allders were helping that process along, and the protracted saga of building Tramlink got rid of remaining trade in George Street and helped Surrey Street go rapidly even further downhill. Now Westfield come along with empty promises, and a new generation of councillors and officials come along, moths to the flame. Pah! If I were a Croydon ratepayer I'd be beyond angry. North End was open to buses only for a time, I think that changed for safety reasons as much as anything else? Times have changed since then and crowds aren't pouring in or out of anywhere nowadays. When Westfield was proposed nobody could have forseen how much shopping habits would change. Times have changed, but the fact remains that Croydon is a large employment centre with many quite well paid jobs and employees with time on their hands at lunchtime and after work. I was a very regular visitor to Croydon for several years in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and an occasional daytime visitor for several years after that, and I saw dramatic changes even before the demise of Woolworths, Littlewoods, etc, with the Whitgift losing half its patronage, and fewer shops every time I went. The powers-that-be in their greed contributed highly to the general malaise. Bromley, by contrast, didn't change nearly so much for the worse in that time. TfL also had a hand imo, by their decision to withdraw bus routes which might still be used in preference to trams, like the 54 for instance. Croydon was one place where bus numbers dropped quite significantly between 2000 and 2010, when expansion was still the name of the game elsewhere.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 13, 2020 23:03:37 GMT
I agree with this but one thing they still haven't sorted is that the apparent last stop for route 197 is Park Street when the buses just go direct to the stand at Fairfield Halls. Croydon Town Centre looks more of a dump then I have ever seen it though and I do hope the Westfield development starts soon. Westfield Croydon will never happen ... even if it does it will be nothing like Stratford ... the bottom has fallen out of the retail sector ... Noone in their right mind would want to spend money developing a huge intown shopping centre The problem isn't retail giants like Westfiled, Lakeside, Bluewater. It is the High Street. The High Street is grotty, past its sell by date, poor security, not to mention lack of parking. People travel huge distances to go places like Westfield, it is a leisure & shopping experience.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 14, 2020 0:25:42 GMT
Westfield Croydon will never happen ... even if it does it will be nothing like Stratford ... the bottom has fallen out of the retail sector ... Noone in their right mind would want to spend money developing a huge intown shopping centre The problem isn't retail giants like Westfiled, Lakeside, Bluewater. It is the High Street. The High Street is grotty, past its sell by date, poor security, not to mention lack of parking. People travel huge distances to go places like Westfield, it is a leisure & shopping experience. I'm not sure lack of parking is as big a factor for some high streets - Brixton's high street is still going from strength to strength yet Brixton has always been known as a terrible place to park especially after the crime ridden multi story car park was demolished. Parking seems to affect the outer London high street more than inside I find. I do agree with your other points which is why many non local people stopped going to Croydon & the Whitgift Centre - many people around here used to go up there as it's easier to get to even if it's take a bit longer than the train to Bromley but most say it's rubbish and go to Westfield or use other shopping areas like Colliers Wood & Bromley. Not to mention pedestrianisation having the opposite affect and reducing accessibility to shops - buses at Lakeside & Bluewater stop right by the shopping centre in comparison
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jan 15, 2020 15:13:00 GMT
Definitely not enjoying the 405 cutback - one morning my 109 got delayed by 12 (!) minutes which left a 0 connection from its last stop at Park Road, and I still had to run to Katharine Street as well. Only by some miracle the 405 due didn't leave without me. So smooth interchange has been broken as well. In the past you could beat tight connections between 109s and 405s by alighting at Whitgift Centre, even if you could see a 405 loading up at WCY from the previous bus! No such opportunity now
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2020 18:11:01 GMT
Definitely not enjoying the 405 cutback - one morning my 109 got delayed by 12 (!) minutes which left a 0 connection from its last stop at Park Road, and I still had to run to Katharine Street as well. Only by some miracle the 405 due didn't leave without me. So smooth interchange has been broken as well. In the past you could beat tight connections between 109s and 405s by alighting at Whitgift Centre, even if you could see a 405 loading up at WCY from the previous bus! No such opportunity now Whilst I think the changes have been quite beneficial stand arrangements could have been done differently to allow the 405 and 412 to serve the Park Street stop. Anyway if you just miss the 405 jump on a 60,166 or 466 and you'll probably get the same 405 at Purley as it goes the long way round via Pampisford Road.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 15, 2020 18:26:38 GMT
Definitely not enjoying the 405 cutback - one morning my 109 got delayed by 12 (!) minutes which left a 0 connection from its last stop at Park Road, and I still had to run to Katharine Street as well. Only by some miracle the 405 due didn't leave without me. So smooth interchange has been broken as well. In the past you could beat tight connections between 109s and 405s by alighting at Whitgift Centre, even if you could see a 405 loading up at WCY from the previous bus! No such opportunity now Whilst I think the changes have been quite beneficial stand arrangements could have been done differently to allow the 405 and 412 to serve the Park Street stop. Anyway if you just miss the 405 jump on a 60,166 or 466 and you'll probably get the same 405 at Purley as it goes the long way round via Pampisford Road. Probably best getting a 407 instead so you avoid changeovers at TC?
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2020 18:39:40 GMT
Whilst I think the changes have been quite beneficial stand arrangements could have been done differently to allow the 405 and 412 to serve the Park Street stop. Anyway if you just miss the 405 jump on a 60,166 or 466 and you'll probably get the same 405 at Purley as it goes the long way round via Pampisford Road. Probably best getting a 407 instead so you avoid changeovers at TC? Possibly although it would be a walk between stops at Purley using the 407.
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