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Post by cl54 on Dec 8, 2018 11:44:31 GMT
Sorry but your guess is wide of the mark and I was at the Ensign running day. The advance publicity made it clear that historic vehicles were unable to accommodate wheelchairs and unfolded pushchairs. Special events are fine but they are not suitable for daily use. But so does the 15H publicity (what little there is of it). Your logic is flawed, I’m afraid : it still screams to me that, whether you were at the Ensign running day or not, that if a wheelchair user can’t use the bus, you think it shouldn’t run. That I’m afraid is just double standards from you. You keep missing my point they are not suitable for daily use in London. My logic is not flawed. Special events are fine. The 15H is a route which is past its sell by date. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Dec 8, 2018 13:38:31 GMT
I disagree. Nobody would dream of removing the San Fran cable cars or the original Blackpool trams which are operating mroe and more now plus some older Tram/Street cars in Lisbon. The open backed bus dates back to the first horse drawn buses in London and whilst the RM are still on good condition should be used.
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Post by SILENCED on Dec 8, 2018 14:47:18 GMT
I disagree. Nobody would dream of removing the San Fran cable cars or the original Blackpool trams which are operating mroe and more now plus some older Tram/Street cars in Lisbon. The open backed bus dates back to the first horse drawn buses in London and whilst the RM are still on good condition should be used. But do they cost £1.50 to ride on? Take them out of Travelcard and charge a tourist fare, then continued operation might be viable |
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 8, 2018 15:04:48 GMT
But so does the 15H publicity (what little there is of it). Your logic is flawed, I’m afraid : it still screams to me that, whether you were at the Ensign running day or not, that if a wheelchair user can’t use the bus, you think it shouldn’t run. That I’m afraid is just double standards from you. You keep missing my point they are not suitable for daily use in London. My logic is not flawed. Special events are fine. The 15H is a route which is past its sell by date. I haven’t missed your point - but especially as today is my birthday and I don’t want to spend it arguing online I think we’ll leave it there! |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 8, 2018 15:17:49 GMT
You keep missing my point they are not suitable for daily use in London. My logic is not flawed. Special events are fine. The 15H is a route which is past its sell by date. I haven’t missed your point - but especially as today is my birthday and I don’t want to spend it arguing online I think we’ll leave it there! Happy Birthday and enjoy it. |
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Post by danorak on Dec 8, 2018 15:44:05 GMT
I've reached the reluctant conclusion that it's time to say goodbye to the 15H. The original concept of the heritage routes has been watered down to too great an extent and the money would be better spent elsewhere. I did wonder whether another route might be a better home for them if it were to continue: perhaps the shortened 11 or even a 'museum link' on the revised 14 from the British Museum to the cluster at South Kensington.
I think I'd prefer to see TfL work together with Ensignbus, the LT & London Bus Museums to do 'heritage' central London running days a couple of times a year, aimed at the public rather than the spotter/photographer fraternity (like the Regent Street event) and celebrate the traditional London bus that way.
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 8, 2018 16:04:18 GMT
I've reached the reluctant conclusion that it's time to say goodbye to the 15H. The original concept of the heritage routes has been watered down to too great an extent and the money would be better spent elsewhere. I did wonder whether another route might be a better home for them if it were to continue: perhaps the shortened 11 or even a 'museum link' on the revised 14 from the British Museum to the cluster at South Kensington. I think I'd prefer to see TfL work together with Ensignbus, the LT & London Bus Museums to do 'heritage' central London running days a couple of times a year, aimed at the public rather than the spotter/photographer fraternity (like the Regent Street event) and celebrate the traditional London bus that way. That sounds a much better way to celebrate the traditional London bus that the half hearted 15H. |
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Post by danorak on Dec 8, 2018 16:30:46 GMT
I've reached the reluctant conclusion that it's time to say goodbye to the 15H. The original concept of the heritage routes has been watered down to too great an extent and the money would be better spent elsewhere. I did wonder whether another route might be a better home for them if it were to continue: perhaps the shortened 11 or even a 'museum link' on the revised 14 from the British Museum to the cluster at South Kensington. I think I'd prefer to see TfL work together with Ensignbus, the LT & London Bus Museums to do 'heritage' central London running days a couple of times a year, aimed at the public rather than the spotter/photographer fraternity (like the Regent Street event) and celebrate the traditional London bus that way. That sounds a much better way to celebrate the traditional London bus that the half hearted 15H. Just to add, tomorrow's the annual Bromley event on the 227. Anyone who doubts whether the public notice these things or take any interest should get along. The reaction from passengers of all ages, who are not 'one of us', is always amazing and quite heartwarming. |
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Post by busaholic on Dec 8, 2018 17:09:48 GMT
I've reached the reluctant conclusion that it's time to say goodbye to the 15H. The original concept of the heritage routes has been watered down to too great an extent and the money would be better spent elsewhere. I did wonder whether another route might be a better home for them if it were to continue: perhaps the shortened 11 or even a 'museum link' on the revised 14 from the British Museum to the cluster at South Kensington. I think I'd prefer to see TfL work together with Ensignbus, the LT & London Bus Museums to do 'heritage' central London running days a couple of times a year, aimed at the public rather than the spotter/photographer fraternity (like the Regent Street event) and celebrate the traditional London bus that way. There's not a word of that I disagree with. Just in case anyone has forgotten, or never knew in the first place, thirteen years ago today was the last full day of proper Routemaster operation, on the 159 from Marble Arch to Streatham, but with many older buses running too, including to places like Croydon and West Hampstead formerly served by the route. The following day, Friday 9th Dec 2005, was the 'official' last day, but there was only anything approaching a full service until mid-morning, with the last buses eventually crawling into BN garage a little after 2 p.m. That was the funeral day, I prefer to remember the day before when virtually every journey was still being operated by RMs and a few RMLs that had been retained for cover after the conversion of the 137, right until last bus. I might just start a thread for memories of those two days: apologies if one's been done before, but I wasn't a member of this forum (unbelievably, to me  ) a year ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2018 17:54:59 GMT
Thing that still annoys me about the 15H is the fact you can't use contacless! Had to let buses go and wait for a 15 many times!
I know its because of the ticket machines but it's just madness! I wonder how many times passengers have boarded and been allowed to ride free.
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Post by redbus on Dec 8, 2018 19:39:00 GMT
Dear twobellstogo ,
I love your handle - gives me fond memories along with your avatar Let me wish you a very happy birthday 
Redbus
Back to topic.....
The Routemaster was the London bus which provided service for many years, so to suggest it is unsuitable for London is not something I agree with. What has happened is that bus technology has moved on in some respects, in particular the low floor bus. With the advent of the low floor bus wheelchairs and buggies can be accommodated. Another important development is the transition from traditional prams to fold-up buggies that will fit on buses. Accessibility for all is important, so undoubtedly it is progress to be more accommodating and include buggies and wheelchairs. Less mobile people also might have struggled with the steps, low floor buses don't have. We must not forget this and that the only truly fully accessible and affordable transport in London are buses. The more you cut buses, lose links etc, the more disproportionately these groups of people are impacted. Rant over!
As for the 15H, it is now the wrong route for the Routemaster. Given a free reign a much better route could be designed, quite possibly not even mirroring an existing route. Combine this with accepting contactless, actually collecting all the fares, and I believe revenue could be increased significantly. I still don't understand why the costs of route 15H have risen so much on each contract renewal, that needs to be addressed as well. Doing all this could make the route much more financially viable.
As for leaving the Routemaster to running days, that to me is insufficient. Whether you like the Routemaster or not it is the iconic London bus. Show someone (including a tourist) a Routemaster and say an Evoseti and ask which is the well known London bus and the Routemaster will be picked. You can't create an icon as such, but some things become them, like Routemasters, Big Ben, London Eye and so on. People expect them to be available, not you'll have to wait three months (for a running day) to travel on one!
So, yes the Routemaster should remain available to travel on, but the 15H is the wrong solution.
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Post by sid on Dec 8, 2018 20:41:35 GMT
I disagree. Nobody would dream of removing the San Fran cable cars or the original Blackpool trams which are operating mroe and more now plus some older Tram/Street cars in Lisbon. The open backed bus dates back to the first horse drawn buses in London and whilst the RM are still on good condition should be used. I agree many cities with trams have a few vintage trams still running in normal service charging standard fares and it's surely not too much to expect TfL to keep about half a dozen Routemasters going in everyday service. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Dec 8, 2018 20:48:37 GMT
You keep missing my point they are not suitable for daily use in London. My logic is not flawed. Special events are fine. The 15H is a route which is past its sell by date. I haven’t missed your point - but especially as today is my birthday and I don’t want to spend it arguing online I think we’ll leave it there! Happy birthday Twobells. I hope you are enjoying the day, not least for the joy of bus routes near you changing operator.  |
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Post by southlondonbus on Dec 8, 2018 21:37:45 GMT
What would help the loadings for the 15H would be if it stood at Tower Hill as iv been there before and a large crowd of American tourists etc were waiting for the 15. A NB4L came along and took the large crowd only for less then a minute later the 15H pulled in. Had it been sat there on break many would have boarded before departure or atleast known one was on the horizon and may have chosen it over the modern bus.
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Post by snowman on Apr 8, 2021 13:22:35 GMT
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) a year ago.
