Changes in the Holborn and Bloomsbury area

[routew15]

As part of Camden councils Liveable neighbourhood bid, the Holborn / Bloomsbury area is due to undergo major road changes. 

Not many routes will be impacted by the changes as there are already plans in the pipeline to remove routes from the area (98 & 171). The only route that would be up in the air in terms of termination points would be the 19 as it would not be able to use the New Oxford Street stand (currently 171) or Red Lion square stand (currently 98). Unconfirmed what would happen to the 8 & 521

[busaholic]

What b^^^^^^s. What's 'hostile' about Holborn? The area doesn't belong to Camden Council, for whom I worked once, or its residents (there always were some who thought it was, or should be, mind!) It's part of a vibrant city that is being slowly sterilised to death by politicians and planners with their own agenda to follow, thus making it a little more 'exclusive' by the day and, hey, that can't hinder property prices, can it? Shame about the rest of us. including bus passengers. All those minimum wage (and worse) cleaners working in the area throughout the night might be more inconvenienced when they stumble to their buses after work, but they're collateral.

[snoggle]

The other thing to note in that map are the links to other adjacent schemes.

This Holborn scheme links to the west to the TCR scheme which links to the Oxford St scheme. To the south it links to the Aldwych scheme which abuts on to the Waterloo gyratory scheme. To the west of Waterloo we wil have the Vauxhall gyratory scheme.

To the north east the Holborn scheme links to a proposed Clerkenwell scheme which will then (possibly) link to the Old Street gyratory scheme.

Imagine what all those road works and the subsequent loss of road capacity in the final schemes will do for bus services? Doesn't bear thinking about.

[danorak]

Mar 5, 2019 17:53:29 GMT routew15 said:

Not many routes will be impacted by the changes as there are already plans in the pipeline to remove routes from the area (98 & 171). The only route that would be up in the air in terms of termination points would be the 19 as it would not be able to use the New Oxford Street stand (currently 171) or Red Lion square stand (currently 98). Unconfirmed what would happen to the 8 & 521

Are there plans to shorten the 98? I must have missed that.

As I mentioned in the Central London thread, closing off Great Russell Street to all vehicles would kill off the proposal to reroute the 14 as a (belated) replacement for the 10.

[sid]

Mar 5, 2019 22:33:27 GMT busaholic said:

What b^^^^^^s. What's 'hostile' about Holborn? The area doesn't belong to Camden Council, for whom I worked once, or its residents (there always were some who thought it was, or should be, mind!) It's part of a vibrant city that is being slowly sterilised to death by politicians and planners with their own agenda to follow, thus making it a little more 'exclusive' by the day and, hey, that can't hinder property prices, can it? Shame about the rest of us. including bus passengers. All those minimum wage (and worse) cleaners working in the area throughout the night might be more inconvenienced when they stumble to their buses after work, but they're collateral.

Holborn is choked with traffic for much of the day, these changes will create a far more pleasant environment for everybody.

[routew15]

Whilst not ideal for bus routes 8 & 521, I support pedestrianisation of Procter Street on basis of the Holborn Station Entrance being constructed there. Cannot see how that entrance in particular will manage the expected numbers of passengers without closure of the carriageway. 

[vjaska]

Mar 5, 2019 23:03:27 GMT sid said:

Mar 5, 2019 22:33:27 GMT busaholic said:

What b^^^^^^s. What's 'hostile' about Holborn? The area doesn't belong to Camden Council, for whom I worked once, or its residents (there always were some who thought it was, or should be, mind!) It's part of a vibrant city that is being slowly sterilised to death by politicians and planners with their own agenda to follow, thus making it a little more 'exclusive' by the day and, hey, that can't hinder property prices, can it? Shame about the rest of us. including bus passengers. All those minimum wage (and worse) cleaners working in the area throughout the night might be more inconvenienced when they stumble to their buses after work, but they're collateral.

Holborn is choked with traffic for much of the day, these changes will create a far more pleasant environment for everybody.

Unless you live in areas nearby Holborn in which case, you have all the displaced traffic as a result of the scheme. Road traffic planners of today seem have no idea of the consequences of what you create in one area can have a massive impact on another.

[redexpress]

Mar 5, 2019 17:53:29 GMT routew15 said:

As part of Camden councils Liveable neighbourhood bid, the Holborn / Bloomsbury area is due to undergo major road changes. 

Not many routes will be impacted by the changes as there are already plans in the pipeline to remove routes from the area (98 & 171). The only route that would be up in the air in terms of termination points would be the 19 as it would not be able to use the New Oxford Street stand (currently 171) or Red Lion square stand (currently 98). Unconfirmed what would happen to the 8 & 521

The optimist in me hopes that this would result in the 19 running to a terminus that is actually useful, e.g. TCR, although obviously that depends on stand space.  The optimist in me is often wrong though

As someone who used to live in the area I do like parts of this proposal.  Pedestrianisation of the bit of road in front of the Museum should have happened a long time ago.  However the big worry is that - as with most of these projects - the impact on bus services is barely considered.  Yes there are a few bus-only roads but the wider picture is not very bus-friendly.  Having said that, if this scheme does result in the 98 being diverted to Russell Square (would have to be via Southampton Row obviously), that would be a small silver lining.  The Russell Square area has no other links towards the west (for those who can't easily walk to Holborn or Euston Road).

[southlondonbus]

Whislt not so affected I can still see atleast one North to south route being removed from the area aswell. If not maybe two like with the 59 and 476 being removed from the Euston Road.

[rif153]

Mar 5, 2019 23:53:42 GMT vjaska said:

Mar 5, 2019 23:03:27 GMT sid said:

Holborn is choked with traffic for much of the day, these changes will create a far more pleasant environment for everybody.

Unless you live in areas nearby Holborn in which case, you have all the displaced traffic as a result of the scheme. Road traffic planners of today seem have no idea of the consequences of what you create in one area can have a massive impact on another.

Pedestrianisng Central London is a lovely idea, but that's why pedestrianising parts of Central London has its shortcomings. New Oxford Street and Great Russell Street would be a much more pleasant if they were pedestrianised so would the Strand and so would Oxford Street, however congestion is ultimately worsened. I went to WCC's consultation event on the pedestrianisation of the Strand and they were unbelievably naive, their modelling looked nothing like the volume of traffic which currently passes through the Strand/Aldwych gyratory at peak hours. I am in favour of two way systems over one way ones but when you put these nice ideas into practice they are heavily flawed. I have no doubt TFL have known about this for years and removing the 25 and 242 with the 171 also set to be pulled out of Holborn soon was building up to this. Schemes like this do certianly make the area more pleasant from a pedestrian's point of view but you only have to look at Aldgate to see how apalling the congestion can become as a result of a scheme such as this. Pedestrianising Central London bit by bit is just going to displace more traffic and worsen congestion. Planners don't seem to realise that these schemes do have adverse effects. The best way to mitigate the effect of a scheme like this would be to restrict the access private vehicles get to Central London. Whilst I realise this would be hugely unpopular and this is very controversial, I would like to see freight banned from Central London at peak hours to remove some congestion as well as limits on private cars accessing Central London.

[sid]

Mar 6, 2019 17:38:54 GMT rif153 said:

Mar 5, 2019 23:53:42 GMT vjaska said:

Unless you live in areas nearby Holborn in which case, you have all the displaced traffic as a result of the scheme. Road traffic planners of today seem have no idea of the consequences of what you create in one area can have a massive impact on another.

Pedestrianisng Central London is a lovely idea, but that's why pedestrianising parts of Central London has its shortcomings. New Oxford Street and Great Russell Street would be a much more pleasant if they were pedestrianised so would the Strand and so would Oxford Street, however congestion is ultimately worsened. I went to WCC's consultation event on the pedestrianisation of the Strand and they were unbelievably naive, their modelling looked nothing like the volume of traffic which currently passes through the Strand/Aldwych gyratory at peak hours. I am in favour of two way systems over one way ones but when you put these nice ideas into practice they are heavily flawed. I have no doubt TFL have known about this for years and removing the 25 and 242 with the 171 also set to be pulled out of Holborn soon was building up to this. Schemes like this do certianly make the area more pleasant from a pedestrian's point of view but you only have to look at Aldgate to see how apalling the congestion can become as a result of a scheme such as this. Pedestrianising Central London bit by bit is just going to displace more traffic and worsen congestion. Planners don't seem to realise that these schemes do have adverse effects. The best way to mitigate the effect of a scheme like this would be to restrict the access private vehicles get to Central London. Whilst I realise this would be hugely unpopular and this is very controversial, I would like to see freight banned from Central London at peak hours to remove some congestion as well as limits on private cars accessing Central London.

As you say they do make for a far more pleasant environment for everybody else and as far as I'm concerned the motoring lobby have had far too much influence in this country for too long. I think it's time to bite the bullet and go ahead with these schemes and let traffic levels sort themselves out,any increase in congestion should in itself deter private vehicles.

[vjaska]

Mar 6, 2019 17:54:08 GMT sid said:

Mar 6, 2019 17:38:54 GMT rif153 said:

Pedestrianisng Central London is a lovely idea, but that's why pedestrianising parts of Central London has its shortcomings. New Oxford Street and Great Russell Street would be a much more pleasant if they were pedestrianised so would the Strand and so would Oxford Street, however congestion is ultimately worsened. I went to WCC's consultation event on the pedestrianisation of the Strand and they were unbelievably naive, their modelling looked nothing like the volume of traffic which currently passes through the Strand/Aldwych gyratory at peak hours. I am in favour of two way systems over one way ones but when you put these nice ideas into practice they are heavily flawed. I have no doubt TFL have known about this for years and removing the 25 and 242 with the 171 also set to be pulled out of Holborn soon was building up to this. Schemes like this do certianly make the area more pleasant from a pedestrian's point of view but you only have to look at Aldgate to see how apalling the congestion can become as a result of a scheme such as this. Pedestrianising Central London bit by bit is just going to displace more traffic and worsen congestion. Planners don't seem to realise that these schemes do have adverse effects. The best way to mitigate the effect of a scheme like this would be to restrict the access private vehicles get to Central London. Whilst I realise this would be hugely unpopular and this is very controversial, I would like to see freight banned from Central London at peak hours to remove some congestion as well as limits on private cars accessing Central London.

As you say they do make for a far more pleasant environment for everybody else and as far as I'm concerned the motoring lobby have had far too much influence in this country for too long. I think it's time to bite the bullet and go ahead with these schemes and let traffic levels sort themselves out,any increase in congestion should in itself deter private vehicles.

We have had years of traffic levels ‘sorting themselves out’ and it’s only getting worse all the time. Until someone comes up with actual workable plan for road management, nothing will get better.

[SILENCED]

Mar 6, 2019 17:54:08 GMT sid said:

Mar 6, 2019 17:38:54 GMT rif153 said:

Pedestrianisng Central London is a lovely idea, but that's why pedestrianising parts of Central London has its shortcomings. New Oxford Street and Great Russell Street would be a much more pleasant if they were pedestrianised so would the Strand and so would Oxford Street, however congestion is ultimately worsened. I went to WCC's consultation event on the pedestrianisation of the Strand and they were unbelievably naive, their modelling looked nothing like the volume of traffic which currently passes through the Strand/Aldwych gyratory at peak hours. I am in favour of two way systems over one way ones but when you put these nice ideas into practice they are heavily flawed. I have no doubt TFL have known about this for years and removing the 25 and 242 with the 171 also set to be pulled out of Holborn soon was building up to this. Schemes like this do certianly make the area more pleasant from a pedestrian's point of view but you only have to look at Aldgate to see how apalling the congestion can become as a result of a scheme such as this. Pedestrianising Central London bit by bit is just going to displace more traffic and worsen congestion. Planners don't seem to realise that these schemes do have adverse effects. The best way to mitigate the effect of a scheme like this would be to restrict the access private vehicles get to Central London. Whilst I realise this would be hugely unpopular and this is very controversial, I would like to see freight banned from Central London at peak hours to remove some congestion as well as limits on private cars accessing Central London.

As you say they do make for a far more pleasant environment for everybody else and as far as I'm concerned the motoring lobby have had far too much influence in this country for too long. I think it's time to bite the bullet and go ahead with these schemes and let traffic levels sort themselves out,any increase in congestion should in itself deter private vehicles.

It is that kind of outlook that got us where we are today. History has shown that the past and current generations of urban traffic planners have resulted in levels of traffic remaining the same ... all that happens is the same amount of traffic travels slower as statistic on central London traffic shows, leading to more pollution, creating a worse environment ... the best way to improve the environment is to increase traffic speed and get things moving.

[sid]

Mar 6, 2019 18:05:29 GMT SILENCED said:

Mar 6, 2019 17:54:08 GMT sid said:

As you say they do make for a far more pleasant environment for everybody else and as far as I'm concerned the motoring lobby have had far too much influence in this country for too long. I think it's time to bite the bullet and go ahead with these schemes and let traffic levels sort themselves out,any increase in congestion should in itself deter private vehicles.

It is that kind of outlook that got us where we are today. History has shown that the past and current generations of urban traffic planners have resulted in levels of traffic remaining the same ... all that happens is the same amount of traffic travels slower as statistic on central London traffic shows, leading to more pollution, creating a worse environment ... the best way to improve the environment is to increase traffic speed and get things moving.

What's got us where we are now is this notion that traffic congestion can be solved by creating more road space, it's a short term solution at best.

[frank]

Mar 6, 2019 17:38:54 GMT rif153 said:

Mar 5, 2019 23:53:42 GMT vjaska said:

Unless you live in areas nearby Holborn in which case, you have all the displaced traffic as a result of the scheme. Road traffic planners of today seem have no idea of the consequences of what you create in one area can have a massive impact on another.

Pedestrianisng Central London is a lovely idea, but that's why pedestrianising parts of Central London has its shortcomings. New Oxford Street and Great Russell Street would be a much more pleasant if they were pedestrianised so would the Strand and so would Oxford Street, however congestion is ultimately worsened. I went to WCC's consultation event on the pedestrianisation of the Strand and they were unbelievably naive, their modelling looked nothing like the volume of traffic which currently passes through the Strand/Aldwych gyratory at peak hours. I am in favour of two way systems over one way ones but when you put these nice ideas into practice they are heavily flawed. I have no doubt TFL have known about this for years and removing the 25 and 242 with the 171 also set to be pulled out of Holborn soon was building up to this. Schemes like this do certianly make the area more pleasant from a pedestrian's point of view but you only have to look at Aldgate to see how apalling the congestion can become as a result of a scheme such as this. Pedestrianising Central London bit by bit is just going to displace more traffic and worsen congestion. Planners don't seem to realise that these schemes do have adverse effects. The best way to mitigate the effect of a scheme like this would be to restrict the access private vehicles get to Central London. Whilst I realise this would be hugely unpopular and this is very controversial, I would like to see freight banned from Central London at peak hours to remove some congestion as well as limits on private cars accessing Central London.

Totally agree with you. TfL have taken the cowards way out, to disseminate a Public Transport mode (a revenue generating mode!), to make way for cycling. Tackling our modern day consumer behaviours that breed the likes of uBer, endless delivery companies, and an increase in personal car usage is the only way to create a sustainable city for the future. Simply stripping out masses of roadway to hand over to elitist cyclists will only do more to disenfranchise certain aspects of the society in the long term, not connect it. It's now a company run and governed sadly by politicians who no matter how much they bleat, only have their own vested political interests, which as we all know are more than often are a crave for power until the next election at least!



Note, I have no qualms against cycling. I cycle myself, and completely agree that more and safer cycle infrastructure is needed. No dispute there. However I go back to the 25 as an example of the oodles of pavement space between Bow and Stratford that could have allowed the 25 and cyclists to live in perfect harmony. One idea is that they could have changed the flyover for buses and cyclists only, whilst maintaining the bus lane along with bus priority traffic lights. Regular traffic having to circumnavigate the roundabout. The same could have been done for Stratford Broadway/Great Eastern Road, forcing regular traffic to take a more painstaking route. Lets face it, they caused so much of a mess to the 25 they considered flying it past stops on the roundabout to send it over the flyover.





Let's face it, the only ways to reduce private hire and personal car usage on the road, are to force people out of their cars and incentivise them. To 'force', I mean to do what TfL are in a way doing now, create traffic gridlocks by handing road space to buses and cyclists. However, there are means (bus gates, large stretches of bus lanes, greater bus lane operational hours, bus priority lights etc.) to ensure that buses either do not have to sit in the same traffic / minimise their time in traffic. This is the nuance the current TfL policy completely fails to address.



To 'incentivise', offer/show them an alternative service. If you speed up the 25 enough by removing bottlenecks, if you do away with the image of jammed packed buses running in threes, and create a new image of flowing services, connecting to train services/places of employment/social enjoyment/taking you where you want to go directly, with new technologies such as onboard WiFi, simple fare structures etc. you provide the space for the regular car driver to say... "oh actually taking the 25 wasn't so bad today, I might do it again tomorrow".



Instead TfL have done the complete opposite. Frustrated many users away from the service, and slashed it so badly it no longer terminates where people need to go without any consideration to the social demographic of the heart of the areas 25 runs through. The 25 was my lifeline when I was young and had no money. Opting for the 25 to get to Oxford St for my shifts rather than the train was for me, literally the difference between me being able to my afford Uni fees and not attaining a degree.



As stated earlier, I am a cyclist, and I am car driver. However, as someone who appreciates the transport network as a whole, and how the social mobility can improve societies fortunes in an attempt to provide connectivity, all I can see in TfL's (in reality the Mayors) transport policy, is a disaster for future generations, who will have to face hard choices as to how to undo some of what their predecessors have done in the name of political vanity.



I have always believed, especially on a national level that, there should be a Public Transport body, operating under a cross party agreement to delegate all power to this body, who's sole aim is to look at the transport network from a what will benefit the country/town/cities social and economic disposition, and thus do away with/marginalise the influence of politicians.



It's absolute madness to have a system whereby a labour mayor enforces their own policies in an environment where transport schemes largely take roughly 5-20 years from concept to completion, when in 4 years time a Tory mayor may well be in power, snatching at the every opportunity to undo what their predecessor may have done, in the name of once again.... political vanity.