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Post by wirewiper on May 2, 2019 16:09:18 GMT
I have always thought that the level of fare evasion on bendy buses, LT class and the 521 and 507 are overstated. Observers and journalists will see lots of people apparently boarding without paying or touching in whilst in many cases the people involved will have valid travelcards or other passes; they have a valid ticket, but have not produced it so they are strictly out of order, and will ultimately upset the statistics, but are not necessarily cheating. I have a freedom pass, and always touch in on an LT, but if I didn't no one would care unless there was a revenue check. On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious).
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Post by sid on May 2, 2019 16:28:41 GMT
I have always thought that the level of fare evasion on bendy buses, LT class and the 521 and 507 are overstated. Observers and journalists will see lots of people apparently boarding without paying or touching in whilst in many cases the people involved will have valid travelcards or other passes; they have a valid ticket, but have not produced it so they are strictly out of order, and will ultimately upset the statistics, but are not necessarily cheating. I have a freedom pass, and always touch in on an LT, but if I didn't no one would care unless there was a revenue check. On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious). In theory at least it means anybody boarding through the rear or centre doors on an LT and not touching in is a fare dodger.
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Post by wirewiper on May 2, 2019 17:17:59 GMT
On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious). In theory at least it means anybody boarding through the rear or centre doors on an LT and not touching in is a fare dodger. Technically they are not following the rules. However if they have a valid ticket or permit to travel for that journey I doubt that TfL could bring a successful prosecution via the courts, or that they would even try.
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Post by redbus on May 2, 2019 18:23:24 GMT
In theory at least it means anybody boarding through the rear or centre doors on an LT and not touching in is a fare dodger. Technically they are not following the rules. However if they have a valid ticket or permit to travel for that journey I doubt that TfL could bring a successful prosecution via the courts, or that they would even try. Interesting. So what happens if a pay-as-you-go Oyster user doesn't tap in, a ticket inspector comes along, and the excuse given for not tapping in is that it is a hopper journey which is free. The oyster card bears this out, so what does the ticket inspector do?
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Post by snoggle on May 2, 2019 18:35:49 GMT
On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious). Are you sure about that first bit? As a staff pass holder at the time I have never ever considered that I had any exemption from touching in with my card and that was never my reading of the Conditions of Carriage which apply to everyone.
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Post by snoggle on May 2, 2019 18:41:03 GMT
Technically they are not following the rules. However if they have a valid ticket or permit to travel for that journey I doubt that TfL could bring a successful prosecution via the courts, or that they would even try. Interesting. So what happens if a pay-as-you-go Oyster user doesn't tap in, a ticket inspector comes along, and the excuse given for not tapping in is that it is a hopper journey which is free. The oyster card bears this out, so what does the ticket inspector do? Gives them a polite b*ll*cking that there is no exemption from touching in any bus. It is the system, not the customer, that determines if a hopper fare based journey is made. The only exemption to this is if, for some reason, you are instructed by a member of TfL staff or the driver NOT to touch in (or out if on a rail mode) for some reason. That is going to extremely rare on buses and only in the event of emergency evacuation / crowd control on rail modes. I am excluding device / system failure here as it's not the passenger's issue if the kit isn't working.
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Post by wirewiper on May 3, 2019 7:17:00 GMT
On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious). Are you sure about that first bit? As a staff pass holder at the time I have never ever considered that I had any exemption from touching in with my card and that was never my reading of the Conditions of Carriage which apply to everyone. I had an annual bus pass loaded onto an Oyster Card for some years and I never touched in on bendybuses. During that time I encountered several revenue checks and it was never commented on that I had not touched in. I remember one occasion on a near-empty 436 where I was sitting in the rear section. I was joined by three young black men and a middle-aged white man, none of whom touched in. At the next stop two RPIs got on and checked all our tickets and passes - only one of us did not have a valid ticket and it wasn't any of the young black men (for the avoidance of doubt, it wasn't me either!). Wasn't Oyster trialled with staff passes before it was released to the public? Maybe there was a difference in either the rules, or expectations of staff behaviour (i.e. being "seen" to touch in).
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 16, 2019 19:23:41 GMT
I have always thought that the level of fare evasion on bendy buses, LT class and the 521 and 507 are overstated. Observers and journalists will see lots of people apparently boarding without paying or touching in whilst in many cases the people involved will have valid travelcards or other passes; they have a valid ticket, but have not produced it so they are strictly out of order, and will ultimately upset the statistics, but are not necessarily cheating. I have a freedom pass, and always touch in on an LT, but if I didn't no one would care unless there was a revenue check. On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious). Trouble is the majority of non Oyster Card users don't go via front doors. The drivers on most LT routes hardly press the pass button on the ETM.
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Post by busaholic on May 16, 2019 20:19:30 GMT
On bendybuses it was never a requirement to touch in if you had a travelcard, Freedom Pass or staff travel; or if you had bought a single ticket with cash from the roadside machine. The only people required to touch in on the bus were those using pay-as-yo-go on Oyster. Saver ticket users were required to board at the front and give the ticket to the driver. As far as I know those rules still apply on Red Arrow routes 507 and 521. When the LTs entered service different requirements came into force. Now everyone with an Oyster Card, Freedom Pass or staff travel is required to touch in, as are those paying their fares using contactless. Passengers with paper tickets are required to board at the front and show them to the driver. It is purely about show, to give the impression that fare evasion is not as widespread as it had been perceived to be on the bendybuses (although all it really does is make the actual fare dodgers a bit more obvious). Trouble is the majority of non Oyster Card users don't go via front doors. The drivers on most LT routes hardly press the pass button on the ETM. I've been through all 39 pages of TfL's most recent Conditions of Carriage for bus users in the capital and can find no mention of particular tickets only being validated by entering via the driver on buses with more than one allowable entrance. I believe this is quite deliberate on TfL's part, as they might find their wishes on the subject challengeable.
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Post by snowman on Jun 19, 2019 14:43:27 GMT
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Post by snowman on Aug 1, 2019 6:05:12 GMT
London Datastore now has period 3 journeys Bus usage has fallen to 171.9m journeys (3 and 4 years ago was 189m for period 3, so down about 9%) Datastore journeys link The number of Underground journeys has risen, which suggests people are changing mode Off topic but I have not recently seen any PR spin highlighting Mayors fare freeze, which suggests the lack of revenue is now causing concern, so freeze won’t be continuing.
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Post by rj131 on Aug 11, 2019 22:02:43 GMT
Any idea when the bus patronage figures pdf will be released for the 2018/19 period?? It’s been ages now. They’re probably changing the methodology again to get “a more accurate“ an inflated figure for each route to disguise the falling patronage
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Post by lundnah on Aug 11, 2019 22:22:16 GMT
Any idea when the bus patronage figures pdf will be released for the 2018/19 period?? It’s been ages now. They’re probably changing the methodology again to get “a more accurate“ an inflated figure for each route to disguise the falling patronage Last year the figures were released in mid-September.
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 12, 2019 21:41:18 GMT
London Datastore now has period 3 journeys Bus usage has fallen to 171.9m journeys (3 and 4 years ago was 189m for period 3, so down about 9%) Datastore journeys link The number of Underground journeys has risen, which suggests people are changing mode Off topic but I have not recently seen any PR spin highlighting Mayors fare freeze, which suggests the lack of revenue is now causing concern, so freeze won’t be continuing. The Mayor may not be continuing for much longer, with an election around the corner... the Hopper time limit is too short. 2 hours would work better. People see it as the con it is. Image is everything, pax see how dull buses in London are compared to everyone else outside the M25... no advertising the service to anyone, vague blinds... low speeds... people might just sit in a comfortable taxi rather than on a bus in traffic...
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Post by busaholic on Aug 12, 2019 22:27:20 GMT
London Datastore now has period 3 journeys Bus usage has fallen to 171.9m journeys (3 and 4 years ago was 189m for period 3, so down about 9%) Datastore journeys link The number of Underground journeys has risen, which suggests people are changing mode Off topic but I have not recently seen any PR spin highlighting Mayors fare freeze, which suggests the lack of revenue is now causing concern, so freeze won’t be continuing. The Mayor may not be continuing for much longer, with an election around the corner... the Hopper time limit is too short. 2 hours would work better. People see it as the con it is. Image is everything, pax see how dull buses in London are compared to everyone else outside the M25... no advertising the service to anyone, vague blinds... low speeds... people might just sit in a comfortable taxi rather than on a bus in traffic... Put the fare up.... scrap Hopper.... cap bus fares after two journeys per day.... there's my Election Manifesto, free for anyone to use. Oh, and vow to end bus regulation en route except in emergency situations.
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