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Post by snoggle on May 8, 2019 10:36:41 GMT
This time in London with Arriva operated routes in North London being problematic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48188270Not sure how this problem will ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all those involved - the wheelchair bound bus users, other bus passengers, bus drivers and TfL / bus companies. |
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Post by SILENCED on May 8, 2019 11:34:37 GMT
This time in London with Arriva operated routes in North London being problematic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48188270Not sure how this problem will ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all those involved - the wheelchair bound bus users, other bus passengers, bus drivers and TfL / bus companies. This is not aimed directly at the disabled movement ... more a comment about any perceived minority ... they do not want to be discriminated against, unless it is positive discrimination. I actually believe things need to be done to be more inclusive ... but when one group of people get pitted against another ... things get tribal ... you have hundreds, if not thousands of year of history to back this up! |
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Post by sid on May 8, 2019 12:47:06 GMT
This time in London with Arriva operated routes in North London being problematic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48188270Not sure how this problem will ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all those involved - the wheelchair bound bus users, other bus passengers, bus drivers and TfL / bus companies. It never will be resolved and Clare Manns comment about something having gone wrong is ridiculous, reality is that it's first come first served and she should be saying that. |
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2019 13:01:36 GMT
This time in London with Arriva operated routes in North London being problematic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48188270Not sure how this problem will ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all those involved - the wheelchair bound bus users, other bus passengers, bus drivers and TfL / bus companies. Have I got this right? There was no issue here with buggies, it was simply a very full bus and the wheelchair user wanted people to get off the bus so she could get on? Or did the driver not follow procedure and allow her on first? But you’re right - this problem will never be satisfactorily solved for all parties |
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Post by SILENCED on May 8, 2019 13:07:01 GMT
This time in London with Arriva operated routes in North London being problematic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48188270Not sure how this problem will ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all those involved - the wheelchair bound bus users, other bus passengers, bus drivers and TfL / bus companies. Have I got this right? There was no issue here with buggies, it was simply a very full bus and the wheelchair user wanted people to get off the bus so she could get on? Or did the driver not follow procedure and allow her on first? But you’re right - this problem will never be satisfactorily solved for all parties I dont think that can be confirmed or denied as there is insufficient detail in the article |
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2019 13:09:42 GMT
This time in London with Arriva operated routes in North London being problematic. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48188270Not sure how this problem will ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all those involved - the wheelchair bound bus users, other bus passengers, bus drivers and TfL / bus companies. It never will be resolved and Clare Manns comment about something having gone wrong is ridiculous, reality is that it's first come first served and she should be saying that. Having re-read the article, it says the driver allowed other people on first. If that’s true then the quote about something having gone wrong would be factually correct. We are obliged to allow wheelchair users to board the bus before other passengers. In this sense, it isn’t first come, first served. Where it gets tricky is when the wheelchair space is filled with buggies. I would agree that in that case it essentially comes down to first come, first served because if a buggy user refuses to make space, we cannot throw them off despite the wheelchair user inevitably claiming ‘it’s the law’ Perhaps there could be separate spaces for buggies and wheelchairs. In this case, anyone using the ‘wheelchair’ space for a buggy would do so on the strict understanding they MUST vacate the space if a wheelchair user requires it and refusal would mean being asked to leave the bus. It would inevitably bring conflict but provided there is adequate signage informing people that it is a legal wheelchair space then such conflict might be kept to a minimum. I’m essentially suggesting disabled spaces akin to those found in car parks |
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Post by SILENCED on May 8, 2019 13:32:23 GMT
It never will be resolved and Clare Manns comment about something having gone wrong is ridiculous, reality is that it's first come first served and she should be saying that. Having re-read the article, it says the driver allowed other people on first. If that’s true then the quote about something having gone wrong would be factually correct. We are obliged to allow wheelchair users to board the bus before other passengers. In this sense, it isn’t first come, first served. Where it gets tricky is when the wheelchair space is filled with buggies. I would agree that in that case it essentially comes down to first come, first served because if a buggy user refuses to make space, we cannot throw them off despite the wheelchair user inevitably claiming ‘it’s the law’ Perhaps there could be separate spaces for buggies and wheelchairs. In this case, anyone using the ‘wheelchair’ space for a buggy would do so on the strict understanding they MUST vacate the space if a wheelchair user requires it and refusal would mean being asked to leave the bus. It would inevitably bring conflict but provided there is adequate signage informing people that it is a legal wheelchair space then such conflict might be kept to a minimum. I’m essentially suggesting disabled spaces akin to those found in car parks But what happens if the bus is full and people cant get on ... does the space have to remain vacant? If not what happens at next stop and there is a wheelchair user? |
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2019 13:47:23 GMT
Having re-read the article, it says the driver allowed other people on first. If that’s true then the quote about something having gone wrong would be factually correct. We are obliged to allow wheelchair users to board the bus before other passengers. In this sense, it isn’t first come, first served. Where it gets tricky is when the wheelchair space is filled with buggies. I would agree that in that case it essentially comes down to first come, first served because if a buggy user refuses to make space, we cannot throw them off despite the wheelchair user inevitably claiming ‘it’s the law’ Perhaps there could be separate spaces for buggies and wheelchairs. In this case, anyone using the ‘wheelchair’ space for a buggy would do so on the strict understanding they MUST vacate the space if a wheelchair user requires it and refusal would mean being asked to leave the bus. It would inevitably bring conflict but provided there is adequate signage informing people that it is a legal wheelchair space then such conflict might be kept to a minimum. I’m essentially suggesting disabled spaces akin to those found in car parks But what happens if the bus is full and people cant get on ... does the space have to remain vacant? If not what happens at next stop and there is a wheelchair user? The space should not be used by standing passengers and should be kept clear for wheelchair users. Buggy users may use it on the understanding they MUST vacate that particular space. If disabled spaces in car parks can (mostly) be left free, why not disabled spaces on buses? |
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Post by sid on May 8, 2019 13:53:21 GMT
It never will be resolved and Clare Manns comment about something having gone wrong is ridiculous, reality is that it's first come first served and she should be saying that. Having re-read the article, it says the driver allowed other people on first. If that’s true then the quote about something having gone wrong would be factually correct. We are obliged to allow wheelchair users to board the bus before other passengers. In this sense, it isn’t first come, first served. Where it gets tricky is when the wheelchair space is filled with buggies. I would agree that in that case it essentially comes down to first come, first served because if a buggy user refuses to make space, we cannot throw them off despite the wheelchair user inevitably claiming ‘it’s the law’ Perhaps there could be separate spaces for buggies and wheelchairs. In this case, anyone using the ‘wheelchair’ space for a buggy would do so on the strict understanding they MUST vacate the space if a wheelchair user requires it and refusal would mean being asked to leave the bus. It would inevitably bring conflict but provided there is adequate signage informing people that it is a legal wheelchair space then such conflict might be kept to a minimum. I’m essentially suggesting disabled spaces akin to those found in car parks Yes although at a busy stop the driver might not have seen the wheelchair user or not realised that they wanted to board. Interesting idea about a specific wheelchair space although I don't know how well it would work in practice? There's another report on the same incident, this seems to suggest there were buggies already on board. www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-wheelchair-user-shares-unbearably-frustrating-moment-bus-driver-refuses-to-let-her-board-as-a4135276.html |
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Post by SILENCED on May 8, 2019 14:31:21 GMT
But what happens if the bus is full and people cant get on ... does the space have to remain vacant? If not what happens at next stop and there is a wheelchair user? The space should not be used by standing passengers and should be kept clear for wheelchair users. Buggy users may use it on the understanding they MUST vacate that particular space. If disabled spaces in car parks can (mostly) be left free, why not disabled spaces on buses? Unless you are going to put up barriers around the wheelchair space making it impossible to use I dont see how you can stop someone being forced into the space on a rammed packed bus |
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2019 16:47:44 GMT
The space should not be used by standing passengers and should be kept clear for wheelchair users. Buggy users may use it on the understanding they MUST vacate that particular space. If disabled spaces in car parks can (mostly) be left free, why not disabled spaces on buses? Unless you are going to put up barriers around the wheelchair space making it impossible to use I dont see how you can stop someone being forced into the space on a rammed packed bus Yes, in practice standing passengers probably would end up using the space but it’s really about changing attitudes. Provided people know that that particular space is legally set aside for wheelchair users and if a wheelchair user wishes to board that space MUST be vacated then I don’t see why it should be a problem. And if people/buggies won’t move from the space? Then the bus doesn’t move. Pass any legislation that is needed to ensure a wheelchair user always has access to that space. People will gradually get the message Clearly, sharing the space with buggies isn’t working. Wheelchair users need a legally defined space to use on a bus - a space that is for a wheelchair user and only a wheelchair user. If police attendance is required to enforce it then so be it. It might be inconvenient at first but people are always resistant to change. As I said before, people will soon end up getting the message |
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Post by SILENCED on May 8, 2019 17:30:34 GMT
Unless you are going to put up barriers around the wheelchair space making it impossible to use I dont see how you can stop someone being forced into the space on a rammed packed bus Yes, in practice standing passengers probably would end up using the space but it’s really about changing attitudes. Provided people know that that particular space is legally set aside for wheelchair users and if a wheelchair user wishes to board that space MUST be vacated then I don’t see why it should be a problem. And if people/buggies won’t move from the space? Then the bus doesn’t move. Pass any legislation that is needed to ensure a wheelchair user always has access to that space. People will gradually get the message Clearly, sharing the space with buggies isn’t working. Wheelchair users need a legally defined space to use on a bus - a space that is for a wheelchair user and only a wheelchair user. If police attendance is required to enforce it then so be it. It might be inconvenient at first but people are always resistant to change. As I said before, people will soon end up getting the message But the individual has not committed any crime ... DDA places no responsibility on the individual ... what can the policeman do ... cart off the parent ... what about the child? Can you imagine the press they would receive? |
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Post by busaholic on May 8, 2019 17:33:06 GMT
I can't do links, but this story first came up in the Evening Standard newspaper, complete with a video link made by the wheelchair user. The accompanying article clearly stated that the complainant was first in line for the bus in any case, and the driver allowed eight people who'd arrived at the stop after her onto the bus. This was at Manor House Station and she had already experienced refusal of access on a 141 at Newington Green. On another forum there has already been a volley or two from the ill-informed and ignorant on the lines of 'give the disabled some privileges and they'll seek to put themselves first in all circumstances', adding the ubiquitous 'I'm not against disabled people, but...' just like the closet racists are always keen to stress 'I'm not a racist, but..'.
Anyway their opinions are irrelevant, as is mine, because the law is plain and has been clarified at the highest level. It is up to TfL, in this case, to ensure it's enforced: I'd stick my neck out here and say that if this, or similar, came to prosecution Arriva, as direct employers of the driver, could be enjoined with TfL as defendants. Perhaps it might take this to meet their responsibilities.
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2019 18:42:28 GMT
Yes, in practice standing passengers probably would end up using the space but it’s really about changing attitudes. Provided people know that that particular space is legally set aside for wheelchair users and if a wheelchair user wishes to board that space MUST be vacated then I don’t see why it should be a problem. And if people/buggies won’t move from the space? Then the bus doesn’t move. Pass any legislation that is needed to ensure a wheelchair user always has access to that space. People will gradually get the message Clearly, sharing the space with buggies isn’t working. Wheelchair users need a legally defined space to use on a bus - a space that is for a wheelchair user and only a wheelchair user. If police attendance is required to enforce it then so be it. It might be inconvenient at first but people are always resistant to change. As I said before, people will soon end up getting the message But the individual has not committed any crime ... DDA places no responsibility on the individual ... what can the policeman do ... cart off the parent ... what about the child? Can you imagine the press they would receive? It’s easy to throw up barriers to ideas. I don’t have all the answers just the bones of a possible solution. The current situation isn’t working and there needs to be a fix |
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 19:39:30 GMT
Amazing to think just 20 or so years ago you had to fold a buggy to board a bus. Can you imagine the reaction if that was now.
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