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Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 1, 2020 12:24:05 GMT
There are good ideas in here but agree that this is a mistake. The eastern section of the Jubilee is already very close to capacity, adding the Bexleyheath branch would need some kind of major signalling upgrade - if that were even possible - as North Greenwich would need to handle upwards of 40tph in each direction with the combined operation. This is one crucial reason behind why a Thamesmead spur is no longer being considered. To expect the a majority Overground/SLL/ELL passengers to pile in on this at Canada Water on top would be a bridge too far, I think. It is asking too much of the Jubilee Line, and assuming the Elizabeth Line will free up enough capacity to make it viable, which I am not sure about at all. Although current events could change that, at least for a few years. Some Jubilee line services already terminate at North Greenwich, and some Stratford services could be diverted to the Bexleyheath branch. The Jubilee line is significantly quiter east of Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, as it is partly paralleled by the DLR from Canning Town, plus other lines are available into central London from Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town, which may be more direct to many destinations. I think TFL did have plans at some point to curtail more Jubilee line services short of Stratford and Stanmore - as a means to increase the frequency of the core section, due to the possible cancellation of more rolling stock. This would have resulted in a significant number of trains running only from North Greenwich to West Hampstead or Willesden Green. I wouldn't say it's significant quieter east of North Greenwich. It was getting so bad that prior to Covid kicking in I believe all the North Greenwich terminators were going to be extended to Stratford.
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Post by rif153 on May 1, 2020 12:39:05 GMT
Some Jubilee line services already terminate at North Greenwich, and some Stratford services could be diverted to the Bexleyheath branch. The Jubilee line is significantly quiter east of Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, as it is partly paralleled by the DLR from Canning Town, plus other lines are available into central London from Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town, which may be more direct to many destinations. I think TFL did have plans at some point to curtail more Jubilee line services short of Stratford and Stanmore - as a means to increase the frequency of the core section, due to the possible cancellation of more rolling stock. This would have resulted in a significant number of trains running only from North Greenwich to West Hampstead or Willesden Green. I wouldn't say it's significant quieter east of North Greenwich. It was getting so bad that prior to Covid kicking in I believe all the North Greenwich terminators were going to be extended to Stratford. Yes I believe george said that, it shows how much growth Stratford has seen as a major hub for East London. The Jubilee Line is so ridiculously overcrowded that I don't think piling more pressure on to it by asking people to change from the Oveground on to it at Canada Water is not a good idea at all - the route could really have done with additional trains to increase capacity, perhaps the additional trains could run from Wembley Park/Willesden Green/West Hampstead to North Greenwich (assuming the current service is sufficient for Stratford) to bolster the service in the central section.
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Post by rif153 on May 1, 2020 12:43:27 GMT
There are good ideas in here but agree that this is a mistake. The eastern section of the Jubilee is already very close to capacity, adding the Bexleyheath branch would need some kind of major signalling upgrade - if that were even possible - as North Greenwich would need to handle upwards of 40tph in each direction with the combined operation. This is one crucial reason behind why a Thamesmead spur is no longer being considered. To expect the a majority Overground/SLL/ELL passengers to pile in on this at Canada Water on top would be a bridge too far, I think. It is asking too much of the Jubilee Line, and assuming the Elizabeth Line will free up enough capacity to make it viable, which I am not sure about at all. Although current events could change that, at least for a few years. Some Jubilee line services already terminate at North Greenwich, and some Stratford services could be diverted to the Bexleyheath branch. The Jubilee line is significantly quiter east of Canary Wharf or North Greenwich, as it is partly paralleled by the DLR from Canning Town, plus other lines are available into central London from Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town, which may be more direct to many destinations. I think TFL did have plans at some point to curtail more Jubilee line services short of Stratford and Stanmore - as a means to increase the frequency of the core section, due to the possible cancellation of more rolling stock. This would have resulted in a significant number of trains running only from North Greenwich to West Hampstead or Willesden Green. I can't see the Jubilee Line ever reaching Thamesmead or Bexleyheath for the reasons outlined by myself and others. I think a DLR extension from Gallions Reach or an Overground extension from Barking Riverside is the most likely rail service Thamesmead will get in the near future. I have previously thought about how great it would be if the plan for the Fleet Line were revived and the line were built but not only is there the question of where the line would go west of Charing Cross if you were to revive it but the cost of this and how long it would take compared to a cheaper and shorter extension of the Overground or DLR.
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Post by SILENCED on May 1, 2020 13:09:57 GMT
You would cut off Southern suburban services to London Bridge ... there would be uproar ... sorry stopped reading at that suggestion Stations between New Cross Gate and Sydenham currently only have 4tph into London Bridge, compared to 8tph Overground via Canada Water. I can see this may not be ideal, but it would rationalise the service, by instead giving 12-16tph along this section towards Dalston/Highbury. There are a few alternative routes into central London from similar areas - Southern services from Crystal Palace, Southeastern from Penge East, or Thameslink from Crofton Park. The Overground route also enables a number of interchanges for central London, such as the Jubilee line at Canada Water. I also have proposed to open a new interchange station between New Cross Gate and Surrey Quays, to connect with southeastern services into London Bridge - these are more frequent than 4tph and give continued links into Cannon Street or Charing Cross. In the future, there will also be interchange at New Cross Gate to the Bakerloo line extension. Another possibility may also be to introduce a semi-fast southern service between Croydon and London Bridge, with a few key intermediate stops - such as New Cross Gate, Sydenham or an interchange station at Brockley. If rationalisation is required, I would rather dump the Overground services and keep the Southern service ... London Bridge is far more of a useful destination than any Overground Station ... and besides Overground services are grotty 5 car units. A semi fast Southern service would need to go down the slow line with your 16 tph ... no this idea is a COMPLETE non starter ... hands OFF our Southern services! Would rather return the ELL to starting at NXG ... and use that as an interchange.
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Post by vjaska on May 1, 2020 14:45:56 GMT
Stations between New Cross Gate and Sydenham currently only have 4tph into London Bridge, compared to 8tph Overground via Canada Water. I can see this may not be ideal, but it would rationalise the service, by instead giving 12-16tph along this section towards Dalston/Highbury. There are a few alternative routes into central London from similar areas - Southern services from Crystal Palace, Southeastern from Penge East, or Thameslink from Crofton Park. The Overground route also enables a number of interchanges for central London, such as the Jubilee line at Canada Water. I also have proposed to open a new interchange station between New Cross Gate and Surrey Quays, to connect with southeastern services into London Bridge - these are more frequent than 4tph and give continued links into Cannon Street or Charing Cross. In the future, there will also be interchange at New Cross Gate to the Bakerloo line extension. Another possibility may also be to introduce a semi-fast southern service between Croydon and London Bridge, with a few key intermediate stops - such as New Cross Gate, Sydenham or an interchange station at Brockley. If rationalisation is required, I would rather dump the Overground services and keep the Southern service ... London Bridge is far more of a useful destination than any Overground Station ... and besides Overground services are grotty 5 car units. A semi fast Southern service would need to go down the slow line with your 16 tph ... no this idea is a COMPLETE non starter ... hands OFF our Southern services! Would rather return the ELL to starting at NXG ... and use that as an interchange. Have no comments on where trains should go or not go but miffed at how the Overground trains are “grotty”? Small certainly but don’t see the issue with them otherwise?
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Post by SILENCED on May 1, 2020 14:51:05 GMT
If rationalisation is required, I would rather dump the Overground services and keep the Southern service ... London Bridge is far more of a useful destination than any Overground Station ... and besides Overground services are grotty 5 car units. A semi fast Southern service would need to go down the slow line with your 16 tph ... no this idea is a COMPLETE non starter ... hands OFF our Southern services! Would rather return the ELL to starting at NXG ... and use that as an interchange. Have no comments on where trains should go or not go but miffed at how the Overground trains are “grotty”? Small certainly but don’t see the issue with them otherwise? The internal ambiance of a 378 is not pleasant when compared to a 377 or even a 455. A 378 is nothing more than a giant cattle truck.
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Post by rif153 on May 1, 2020 16:35:13 GMT
Stations between New Cross Gate and Sydenham currently only have 4tph into London Bridge, compared to 8tph Overground via Canada Water. I can see this may not be ideal, but it would rationalise the service, by instead giving 12-16tph along this section towards Dalston/Highbury. There are a few alternative routes into central London from similar areas - Southern services from Crystal Palace, Southeastern from Penge East, or Thameslink from Crofton Park. The Overground route also enables a number of interchanges for central London, such as the Jubilee line at Canada Water. I also have proposed to open a new interchange station between New Cross Gate and Surrey Quays, to connect with southeastern services into London Bridge - these are more frequent than 4tph and give continued links into Cannon Street or Charing Cross. In the future, there will also be interchange at New Cross Gate to the Bakerloo line extension. Another possibility may also be to introduce a semi-fast southern service between Croydon and London Bridge, with a few key intermediate stops - such as New Cross Gate, Sydenham or an interchange station at Brockley. If rationalisation is required, I would rather dump the Overground services and keep the Southern service ... London Bridge is far more of a useful destination than any Overground Station ... and besides Overground services are grotty 5 car units. A semi fast Southern service would need to go down the slow line with your 16 tph ... no this idea is a COMPLETE non starter ... hands OFF our Southern services! Would rather return the ELL to starting at NXG ... and use that as an interchange. There should definitely be an aspiration to upgrade Southern services to 10-car (I would say for the next franchise but its possible there may not be one) to help relieve overcrowding one some of those metro routes. Whilst the Overground provides useful new services, as you point out their only 5 car and lengthening Overground trains is probably a non starter given that the platforms at Whitechapel, Wapping and Rotherhithe are only long enough for four cars. Not sure if there are any Overground platforms which wouldn't be able to take 6 cars, but I wouldn't be surprised at all.
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Post by ADH45258 on May 1, 2020 17:15:33 GMT
Have no comments on where trains should go or not go but miffed at how the Overground trains are “grotty”? Small certainly but don’t see the issue with them otherwise? The internal ambiance of a 378 is not pleasant when compared to a 377 or even a 455. A 378 is nothing more than a giant cattle truck. Even the 710s are quite an improvement on the 378s
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Post by route53 on May 2, 2020 9:52:02 GMT
The ELL is eventually going to be increased to 20tph.
They want to run 6tph on the South London branch and an additional 2tph on the Sydenham branch I don’t know that’s going to work with existing Southern services but there’s no way semi fasts can use the slow lines now.
There were semi fasts until the 2000s which skipped Brockley, HOP, PW & Anerley and called only at NXG, FH & Sydenham, this was when the slow lines were 6tph but that frequency has doubled, at best Thameslink should restore the Horsham service stop at NXG and also have the Epsom fasts stop there too, it doesn’t make sense to have trains skipping NXG especially since its a major interchange and is technically a university town with Goldsmith College up the road, New Cross Gate is the South London Finsbury Park for me
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Post by route53 on May 2, 2020 9:58:33 GMT
Instead of the Rainham service Thameslink should have taken over 2tph of the Sydenham line trains, the Caterham service surely this wouldn’t have effected the Windmill junction issue.
As for the Rainham service, it would revert back to Southeastern and sped up, calling only at Deptford, Greenwich, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood, Dartford, then all stations to Rainham
There would also be a Maidstone West/Tonbridge service, which would be Lewisham, Blackheath, Woolwich Arsenal, Abbey Wood all stations to Dartford, then Greenhithe, Gravesend, Strood, Maidstone West and Tonbridge only
To keep the Plumstead lot happy they would have 4tph terminators via Greenwich in addition to the rounders to keep 8tph there but in truth Plumstead can get by on 6tph
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Post by rif153 on May 2, 2020 12:07:39 GMT
The ELL is eventually going to be increased to 20tph. They want to run 6tph on the South London branch and an additional 2tph on the Sydenham branch I don’t know that’s going to work with existing Southern services but there’s no way semi fasts can use the slow lines now. There were semi fasts until the 2000s which skipped Brockley, HOP, PW & Anerley and called only at NXG, FH & Sydenham, this was when the slow lines were 6tph but that frequency has doubled, at best Thameslink should restore the Horsham service stop at NXG and also have the Epsom fasts stop there too, it doesn’t make sense to have trains skipping NXG especially since its a major interchange and is technically a university town with Goldsmith College up the road, New Cross Gate is the South London Finsbury Park for me Is increasing the ELL to 20tph going to be achieved by upgrading the signalling as part of the Brighton Mainline upgrades? The services on the ELL could really do with an improved frequency as its stations and trains are so overcrowded during rush hour.
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Post by route53 on May 2, 2020 15:47:28 GMT
The ELL is eventually going to be increased to 20tph. They want to run 6tph on the South London branch and an additional 2tph on the Sydenham branch I don’t know that’s going to work with existing Southern services but there’s no way semi fasts can use the slow lines now. There were semi fasts until the 2000s which skipped Brockley, HOP, PW & Anerley and called only at NXG, FH & Sydenham, this was when the slow lines were 6tph but that frequency has doubled, at best Thameslink should restore the Horsham service stop at NXG and also have the Epsom fasts stop there too, it doesn’t make sense to have trains skipping NXG especially since its a major interchange and is technically a university town with Goldsmith College up the road, New Cross Gate is the South London Finsbury Park for me Is increasing the ELL to 20tph going to be achieved by upgrading the signalling as part of the Brighton Mainline upgrades? The services on the ELL could really do with an improved frequency as its stations and trains are so overcrowded during rush hour. I think it will have something to do with the BML upgrade. That’s also the reason why the 378 electrostars will eventually be transplanted onto the ELL & SLL while the rest of the Overground lines will be operated by the newer 710’s. I agree that the ELL/SLL need more trains but I hope not at the expense of London Bridge trains
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Post by greenboy on May 3, 2020 8:14:35 GMT
The ELL is eventually going to be increased to 20tph. They want to run 6tph on the South London branch and an additional 2tph on the Sydenham branch I don’t know that’s going to work with existing Southern services but there’s no way semi fasts can use the slow lines now. There were semi fasts until the 2000s which skipped Brockley, HOP, PW & Anerley and called only at NXG, FH & Sydenham, this was when the slow lines were 6tph but that frequency has doubled, at best Thameslink should restore the Horsham service stop at NXG and also have the Epsom fasts stop there too, it doesn’t make sense to have trains skipping NXG especially since its a major interchange and is technically a university town with Goldsmith College up the road, New Cross Gate is the South London Finsbury Park for me It's possible to stop more southbound trains at platform 2 at New Cross Gate and then join the fast line without conflicting with LO services from platform 1 but it's not so simple in the northbound direction. Probably not desirable to stop too many trains on platforms 3/4 due to possible over crowding as well as delaying fast trains.
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Post by route53 on May 3, 2020 17:45:26 GMT
The ELL is eventually going to be increased to 20tph. They want to run 6tph on the South London branch and an additional 2tph on the Sydenham branch I don’t know that’s going to work with existing Southern services but there’s no way semi fasts can use the slow lines now. There were semi fasts until the 2000s which skipped Brockley, HOP, PW & Anerley and called only at NXG, FH & Sydenham, this was when the slow lines were 6tph but that frequency has doubled, at best Thameslink should restore the Horsham service stop at NXG and also have the Epsom fasts stop there too, it doesn’t make sense to have trains skipping NXG especially since its a major interchange and is technically a university town with Goldsmith College up the road, New Cross Gate is the South London Finsbury Park for me It's possible to stop more southbound trains at platform 2 at New Cross Gate and then join the fast line without conflicting with LO services from platform 1 but it's not so simple in the northbound direction. Probably not desirable to stop too many trains on platforms 3/4 due to possible over crowding as well as delaying fast trains. The 2tph Epsom fasts would be the best service to stop at New Cross Gate then, although the Gatwick connection would be ideal
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Post by rif153 on May 3, 2020 17:57:48 GMT
The ELL is eventually going to be increased to 20tph. They want to run 6tph on the South London branch and an additional 2tph on the Sydenham branch I don’t know that’s going to work with existing Southern services but there’s no way semi fasts can use the slow lines now. There were semi fasts until the 2000s which skipped Brockley, HOP, PW & Anerley and called only at NXG, FH & Sydenham, this was when the slow lines were 6tph but that frequency has doubled, at best Thameslink should restore the Horsham service stop at NXG and also have the Epsom fasts stop there too, it doesn’t make sense to have trains skipping NXG especially since its a major interchange and is technically a university town with Goldsmith College up the road, New Cross Gate is the South London Finsbury Park for me It's possible to stop more southbound trains at platform 2 at New Cross Gate and then join the fast line without conflicting with LO services from platform 1 but it's not so simple in the northbound direction. Probably not desirable to stop too many trains on platforms 3/4 due to possible over crowding as well as delaying fast trains. Ideally NXG would be improved when the Bakerloo Line Extension finally happens to create a hub station which should hopefully not only help to reduce pressure on the current services at NXG but also allow for wider redevelopment of the station which could perhaps include a new northbound platform. Once the extension does occur, there may be some scope for more fast trains to stop, though how that can be done without delaying faster services is a major logistical challenge let alone the Bakerloo Line Extension being several decades off.
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