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Post by route53 on Nov 10, 2019 19:03:42 GMT
Yes the decision to route the extension down via OKR is a bizarre one, Camberwell needs this more since as you say it has no station except for Denmark Hill which is convenient for Kings College Hospital but not for the Camberwell area which is more heavily built up and has more of a proper town centre vibe than the OKR, you could still have the NXG station as well, and as you say I don’t believe phase 2 of the B-Loo line extension will happen, if it does it’ll be in the 2050s at the earliest. Camberwell has been treated disgracefully by the planners of TfL and its predecessors over the last few decades imo, and it continues. I can see why the Old Kent Road routeing got the nod, though, based on the huge volume of housing planned in the vicinity. Boris Johnson, when Mayor, should have agreed the extension of the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line out to Camberwell and beyond rather than sucking up to billionaire developers of an ex-power station site, but money talks and Boris listens. The best case scenario for Camberwell is if the powers that be look into reopening Camberwell New Road station on the Thameslink line, replacing Loughborough Junction station, there is certainly demand for a train station in Camberwell. In addition to the Thameslink services from Sevenoaks, Sutton and Wimbledon to North of London, I’d also have a new service: a shuttle from Blackfriars to Clapham Junction and/or Battersea Park, calling at E&C, Camberwell New Road, Clapham H.S, Wandsworth Road then Battersea Park or Clapham Junction, this could be operated by London Overground,
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Post by route53 on Nov 10, 2019 19:07:59 GMT
Camberwell has been treated disgracefully by the planners of TfL and its predecessors over the last few decades imo, and it continues. I can see why the Old Kent Road routeing got the nod, though, based on the huge volume of housing planned in the vicinity. Boris Johnson, when Mayor, should have agreed the extension of the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line out to Camberwell and beyond rather than sucking up to billionaire developers of an ex-power station site, but money talks and Boris listens. Its a joke. The same scenario which you describe with the NLE can be applied to the BLE. TfL will make lots of money out of extending the Bakerloo Line down OKR as there is a general plan to redevelop that area, and of course, the yuppies buying the flats are too rich/posh/stuck up/a combination of all three to use the 453. Camberwell should have gotten the Bakerloo line years ago, the sidings beyond Elephant and Castle are even referred to as the ''Camberwel baby sidings,'' its such a shame the Bakerloo didn't go down there many years ago but it may never go down there at this rate. Sadly it is because as you say private investors turned TfL's head and will help to fund the BLE via OKR. Spot on! As for the 453, I guess it’s an unspoken view that that route’s days are numbered, since it parallels not only the existing Bakerloo route but also the extension route to NXG, RIP 453: 2003-2030. Camberwell needs a railway, it’s unthinkable that a busy Zone 2 area has none!
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Post by rif153 on Nov 10, 2019 19:11:19 GMT
Camberwell has been treated disgracefully by the planners of TfL and its predecessors over the last few decades imo, and it continues. I can see why the Old Kent Road routeing got the nod, though, based on the huge volume of housing planned in the vicinity. Boris Johnson, when Mayor, should have agreed the extension of the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line out to Camberwell and beyond rather than sucking up to billionaire developers of an ex-power station site, but money talks and Boris listens. The best case scenario for Camberwell is if the powers that be look into reopening Camberwell New Road station on the Thameslink line, replacing Loughborough Junction station, there is certainly demand for a train station in Camberwell. In addition to the Thameslink services from Sevenoaks, Sutton and Wimbledon to North of London, I’d also have a new service: a shuttle from Blackfriars to Clapham Junction and/or Battersea Park, calling at E&C, Camberwell New Road, Clapham H.S, Wandsworth Road then Battersea Park or Clapham Junction, this could be operated by London Overground, Your service would go some way in appeasing people at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street who weren't best pleased at their loss of trains to Central London when the Inner SLL transferred to London Overground. Elephant and Castle may not be London Bridge, but it makes travelling from Wandsworth Road to London Bridge easier. I can imagine that the people who were frustrated at the loss of direct trains to Victoria look on in envy as Southeastern trains whizz past.
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Post by rif153 on Nov 10, 2019 19:12:36 GMT
Not only that but I’d argue having a Bakerloo branch through Camberwell should be more of a priority given the area still has no station and wouldn’t have as much hassle as you have beyond Lewisham. It won’t ever happen but that’s my own thoughts Additionally I believe there is a bit of existing tunnel towards Camberwell that was abandoned due to the outbreak of World War II. It was only a pity that the project wasn't eventually continued upon after the end of the war. If you're referring to the overrun sidings at Elephant then yes those were intended to be part of an onward extension to Camberwell, and was actually the place where the first baby on the London Underground was born in 1924 (don't quote me on the year)
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Post by rif153 on Nov 10, 2019 19:16:11 GMT
Not only that but I’d argue having a Bakerloo branch through Camberwell should be more of a priority given the area still has no station and wouldn’t have as much hassle as you have beyond Lewisham. It won’t ever happen but that’s my own thoughts Yes the decision to route the extension down via OKR is a bizarre one, Camberwell needs this more since as you say it has no station except for Denmark Hill which is convenient for Kings College Hospital but not for the Camberwell area which is more heavily built up and has more of a proper town centre vibe than the OKR, you could still have the NXG station as well, and as you say I don’t believe phase 2 of the B-Loo line extension will happen, if it does it’ll be in the 2050s at the earliest. The concerning thing is that with the retunneling of the line between Lambeth North and E&C, it almost closes the door on a viable extension to Camberwell. At present, trains face south when coming in to terminate at Elephant but the extension would realign the line to face south-east towards Old Kent Road thus meaning you would have to create a very awkward tight bend/spur off that extended line to facilliate a Camberwell extension. There's the option of constructing an additional set of platforms which are better aligned to head south towards Camberwell but the chances of the Bakerloo Line being extended to Mars are higher than that of it being extended to Camberwell these days.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 10, 2019 21:23:28 GMT
Not only that but I’d argue having a Bakerloo branch through Camberwell should be more of a priority given the area still has no station and wouldn’t have as much hassle as you have beyond Lewisham. It won’t ever happen but that’s my own thoughts Yes the decision to route the extension down via OKR is a bizarre one, Camberwell needs this more since as you say it has no station except for Denmark Hill which is convenient for Kings College Hospital but not for the Camberwell area which is more heavily built up and has more of a proper town centre vibe than the OKR, you could still have the NXG station as well, and as you say I don’t believe phase 2 of the B-Loo line extension will happen, if it does it’ll be in the 2050s at the earliest. The Old Kent Road route makes sense as it has many retail outlets though deciding where the two stations were to be situated must of been tough given the spread out the outlets between Ilderton Road & Dunton Road - it's just that provision should of also been made to send a line via Camberwell which could of continued south towards Croydon (haven't thought of a definite finishing point but nowhere beyond Croydon for sure).
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Post by vjaska on Nov 10, 2019 21:26:24 GMT
Camberwell has been treated disgracefully by the planners of TfL and its predecessors over the last few decades imo, and it continues. I can see why the Old Kent Road routeing got the nod, though, based on the huge volume of housing planned in the vicinity. Boris Johnson, when Mayor, should have agreed the extension of the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line out to Camberwell and beyond rather than sucking up to billionaire developers of an ex-power station site, but money talks and Boris listens. The best case scenario for Camberwell is if the powers that be look into reopening Camberwell New Road station on the Thameslink line, replacing Loughborough Junction station, there is certainly demand for a train station in Camberwell. In addition to the Thameslink services from Sevenoaks, Sutton and Wimbledon to North of London, I’d also have a new service: a shuttle from Blackfriars to Clapham Junction and/or Battersea Park, calling at E&C, Camberwell New Road, Clapham H.S, Wandsworth Road then Battersea Park or Clapham Junction, this could be operated by London Overground, Replacing Loughborough Junction doesn't sit well with me especially as if enough money turned up which is highly unlikely due to high cost & priority rightly given to Brixton in any event, an Overground Station at Loughborough Junction would give interchange between the two lines.
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Post by twobellstogo on Nov 11, 2019 8:00:37 GMT
Its a joke. The same scenario which you describe with the NLE can be applied to the BLE. TfL will make lots of money out of extending the Bakerloo Line down OKR as there is a general plan to redevelop that area, and of course, the yuppies buying the flats are too rich/posh/stuck up/a combination of all three to use the 453. Camberwell should have gotten the Bakerloo line years ago, the sidings beyond Elephant and Castle are even referred to as the ''Camberwel baby sidings,'' its such a shame the Bakerloo didn't go down there many years ago but it may never go down there at this rate. Sadly it is because as you say private investors turned TfL's head and will help to fund the BLE via OKR. Spot on! As for the 453, I guess it’s an unspoken view that that route’s days are numbered, since it parallels not only the existing Bakerloo route but also the extension route to NXG, RIP 453: 2003-2030. Camberwell needs a railway, it’s unthinkable that a busy Zone 2 area has none! Very pie in the sky, but I’ve often imagined splitting the Piccadilly line in two at Holborn, and having the northern end extend southwards over the Aldwych branch, then through Southwark and E&C to Camberwell and Denmark Hill. (the western end I’d send to Clerkenwell, Shoreditch and Hackney, also areas that could really do with a frequent tube service...)
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Post by route53 on Nov 11, 2019 9:13:37 GMT
Spot on! As for the 453, I guess it’s an unspoken view that that route’s days are numbered, since it parallels not only the existing Bakerloo route but also the extension route to NXG, RIP 453: 2003-2030. Camberwell needs a railway, it’s unthinkable that a busy Zone 2 area has none! Very pie in the sky, but I’ve often imagined splitting the Piccadilly line in two at Holborn, and having the northern end extend southwards over the Aldwych branch, then through Southwark and E&C to Camberwell and Denmark Hill. (the western end I’d send to Clerkenwell, Shoreditch and Hackney, also areas that could really do with a frequent tube service...) This sounds like a proposal made in the 60s. The Piccadilly line was to be cut in half at Holborn, with the Cockfosters branch routed down to Aldwych and extended to Elephant & Castle, with the Bakerloo rerouted to Bank replacing the Waterloo & City line
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Post by busaholic on Nov 11, 2019 18:01:28 GMT
Spot on! As for the 453, I guess it’s an unspoken view that that route’s days are numbered, since it parallels not only the existing Bakerloo route but also the extension route to NXG, RIP 453: 2003-2030. Camberwell needs a railway, it’s unthinkable that a busy Zone 2 area has none! Very pie in the sky, but I’ve often imagined splitting the Piccadilly line in two at Holborn, and having the northern end extend southwards over the Aldwych branch, then through Southwark and E&C to Camberwell and Denmark Hill. (the western end I’d send to Clerkenwell, Shoreditch and Hackney, also areas that could really do with a frequent tube service...) HUGE problems, both logistically and politically, with your Piccadilly Line proposal. Politically, if an extension was made from Aldwych it would absolutely have to be via Waterloo, at least in the sense that the station would have to be labelled as such even though the platforms might be hundreds of yards from the main line station. Holborn to Waterloo and, even more, the 'missing' direct link between Kings Cross and Waterloo would be top of the agenda for TfL before any other consideration. Logistically, Holborn station would have to be completely rebuilt with a large amount of new tunnelling to give the Aldwych branch, always a shuttle running to and from the sole platform allotted for it, access to the rest of the Piccadilly Line northbound: that's apart from the knotty problem of dovetailing the service into what would become the other branch, with an inevitable cut in frequency west of Holborn which would almost certainly be both operationally and politically unacceptable.
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Post by rif153 on Nov 11, 2019 20:25:58 GMT
Spot on! As for the 453, I guess it’s an unspoken view that that route’s days are numbered, since it parallels not only the existing Bakerloo route but also the extension route to NXG, RIP 453: 2003-2030. Camberwell needs a railway, it’s unthinkable that a busy Zone 2 area has none! Very pie in the sky, but I’ve often imagined splitting the Piccadilly line in two at Holborn, and having the northern end extend southwards over the Aldwych branch, then through Southwark and E&C to Camberwell and Denmark Hill. (the western end I’d send to Clerkenwell, Shoreditch and Hackney, also areas that could really do with a frequent tube service...) Interesting idea. I loke your your proposal to send the Piccadilly Line further eastward as at the moment, there is an east west link across that axis lacking, and altering the Piccadilly Line in the way you suggest would create great East-West links. I think a North South link like the one hour propose would suit Camberwell well, would be a well appreciate link and I think if you are going to create a tube line going south from Elephant then the most logical think is the follow the 68 as Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, and Norwood could all do with a tube service.
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Post by route53 on Dec 19, 2019 17:43:15 GMT
My idea on how I’d like the Greenwich & North Kent lines to be operated:
1; Luton to Rainham: After LB it would call at Deptford, Greenwich, Charlton, Woolwich A., Abbey Wood, Belvedere, Erith, Slade Green, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend then all stops to Rainham.
I’ve sped up the service, by axing Maze Hill, Westcombe Park, Plumstead, Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet, but added in Belvedere and Erith, since there is a lot more in terms of home building than there is by Plumstead, Westcombe Park and Maze Hill, Plumstead can cope with 6tph and WP & MZ is so quiet 4tph is enough
2; Charing Cross to Gravesend: after LB, calls at Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Plumstead, Abbey Wood, Dartford, Stone, Greenhithe, Swanscombe, Northfleet and Gravesend
Again still semi fast and I’ve added in the stops between; Dartford and Gravesend, plus Plumstead, this also gives Gravesend and Greenhithe 4tph to the CrossRail connection at Abbey Wood
3; Cannon Street loops: unchanged
This way this satisfies the majority point users on the line, it keeps Thameslink while speeding up the journey and adds Belvedere and Erith, Medway users have their semi fasts partially restored, the shacks between Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend keep 2tph to Abbey Wood CrossRail, it’s only Maze Hill, Westcombe Park and Woolwich Dockyard that gets shafted
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Post by kenmet on Dec 19, 2019 20:41:56 GMT
My idea on how I’d like the Greenwich & North Kent lines to be operated: 1; Luton to Rainham: After LB it would call at Deptford, Greenwich, Charlton, Woolwich A., Abbey Wood, Belvedere, Erith, Slade Green, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend then all stops to Rainham. I’ve sped up the service, by axing Maze Hill, Westcombe Park, Plumstead, Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet, but added in Belvedere and Erith, since there is a lot more in terms of home building than there is by Plumstead, Westcombe Park and Maze Hill, Plumstead can cope with 6tph and WP & MZ is so quiet 4tph is enough 2; Charing Cross to Gravesend: after LB, calls at Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Plumstead, Abbey Wood, Dartford, Stone, Greenhithe, Swanscombe, Northfleet and Gravesend Again still semi fast and I’ve added in the stops between; Dartford and Gravesend, plus Plumstead, this also gives Gravesend and Greenhithe 4tph to the CrossRail connection at Abbey Wood 3; Cannon Street loops: unchanged This way this satisfies the majority point users on the line, it keeps Thameslink while speeding up the journey and adds Belvedere and Erith, Medway users have their semi fasts partially restored, the shacks between Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend keep 2tph to Abbey Wood CrossRail, it’s only Maze Hill, Westcombe Park and Woolwich Dockyard that gets shafted Wouldn't it be better for the Charing Cross service to do Lewisham Blackheath Charlton Woolwich Arsenal Abbey Wood Dartford Greenhithe Gravesend and all stations to Rainham and the Thameslink train all stations to Gravesend? Thameslink is of no benefit to the Medway Towns as it's just too slow, in the long term I think Crossrail should be extended to Rainham.
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Post by route53 on Dec 20, 2019 9:59:21 GMT
My idea on how I’d like the Greenwich & North Kent lines to be operated: 1; Luton to Rainham: After LB it would call at Deptford, Greenwich, Charlton, Woolwich A., Abbey Wood, Belvedere, Erith, Slade Green, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend then all stops to Rainham. I’ve sped up the service, by axing Maze Hill, Westcombe Park, Plumstead, Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet, but added in Belvedere and Erith, since there is a lot more in terms of home building than there is by Plumstead, Westcombe Park and Maze Hill, Plumstead can cope with 6tph and WP & MZ is so quiet 4tph is enough 2; Charing Cross to Gravesend: after LB, calls at Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich Arsenal, Plumstead, Abbey Wood, Dartford, Stone, Greenhithe, Swanscombe, Northfleet and Gravesend Again still semi fast and I’ve added in the stops between; Dartford and Gravesend, plus Plumstead, this also gives Gravesend and Greenhithe 4tph to the CrossRail connection at Abbey Wood 3; Cannon Street loops: unchanged This way this satisfies the majority point users on the line, it keeps Thameslink while speeding up the journey and adds Belvedere and Erith, Medway users have their semi fasts partially restored, the shacks between Dartford, Greenhithe and Gravesend keep 2tph to Abbey Wood CrossRail, it’s only Maze Hill, Westcombe Park and Woolwich Dockyard that gets shafted Wouldn't it be better for the Charing Cross service to do Lewisham Blackheath Charlton Woolwich Arsenal Abbey Wood Dartford Greenhithe Gravesend and all stations to Rainham and the Thameslink train all stations to Gravesend? Thameslink is of no benefit to the Medway Towns as it's just too slow, in the long term I think Crossrail should be extended to Rainham. I do agree with you guys on there being no benefit of Thameslink being in Medway, I was simply trying balance out the needs of passengers on the Greenwich/North Kent lines, personally I hope the service is withdrawn in the near future and the semi fasts are restored, but isn’t having CrossRail extended to Medway similar to Thameslink? Wouldn’t that also be too long? In this scenario I’d like this to happen: - The Metro SE area is transferred to LO - Services on the Greenwich line are curtailed at Plumstead, or Abbey Wood if it gains an extra platform - Only the Woolwich and Sidcup semi fasts remain with SE, the Sidcup fasts would be extended to Medway, giving it 4tph along the London-Dartford-Gravesend-Medway corridor. - LO services on the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines would terminate at Dartford - CrossRail takes over stopping services beyond Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet/Gravesend
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Post by M1104 on Dec 20, 2019 11:06:23 GMT
X64 - Limited stop service from Wimbledon to Gatwick Airport via Morden, Rose Hill, Sutton, Merstham and Redhill. Operated with dual doored tri-axle deckers with luggage racks
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