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Post by foxhat on Sept 11, 2019 10:37:24 GMT
The long awaited 112 & 611 Consultation as per the TfL website:
It is proposed to extend route 112 from Brent Cross to North Finchley bus station via Henlys Corner.
Over the past ten years, there has been substantial growth on bus route 112. In the last five years, the number of passengers has gone up by 50%. With development plans at Stonebridge Park, Harrow Road and Brent Cross, passenger numbers are expected to increase further.
This new orbital link would:
Create new connections between outer London town centres and public transport hubs at Ealing Broadway, Brent Cross and North Finchley
Create new local links between North Finchley/Finchley High Road to the A406 between Finchley High Road, Henlys Corner and Brent Cross
Support the MTS to create better links in outer London and offer a sustainable alternative to using cars on the North Circular A406
The 112 extension would run from Brent Cross via North Circular Road, Henlys Corner, North Circular Road, Finchley High Road to North Finchley bus station. This would require buses to turn right from Kingsway into High Road. This turn is currently banned, but initial work indicates that a ‘buses only’ right turn should be possible. Detailed work will now be undertaken and the local highway authority, Barnet Council would consult on any changes locally. Otherwise, buses would need to use the gyratory via the main shopping high street.
Depending on the feedback from this consultation, we hope to make these changes in autumn 2019.
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Also proposed - the withdrawal of school route 611
As the 112 extension would broadly parallel the 611 school route, we would no longer run the 611.
Our analysis shows that only one trip per school day would be broken by withdrawing route 611. This is a passenger using stops on Regents Park Road.
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Post by foxhat on Sept 11, 2019 10:47:24 GMT
My only concern here is whether there would be enough capacity at school times as there is no mention of using "double decks", which the 611 uses [and needs!]
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Post by ADH45258 on Sept 11, 2019 11:35:55 GMT
Was expecting the 112 extension to go via Finchley Central, rather than duplicating the 232 over a further stretch of the north circular.
I think it would be more effective to simply convert the 112 & 232 to double deck to increase capacity. The only new link created is Brent Cross-North Finchley, and 326 already goes very close to Tally Ho Corner at Nether Street/Argyle Road.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 11, 2019 11:48:09 GMT
I'm still of the opinion that this is the wrong route to extend because the 112 has to plough through the heavy North Circular traffic and this could affect reliability even more than currently. Extending the 112 will not simply get cars off the North Circular like they're suggesting - further action is required across London to significantly reduce congestion.
Also, TfL mention it's grown by 50% so where is the double deck conversion because it sees heavy loadings and has done so over the years
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Post by snowman on Sept 11, 2019 11:57:14 GMT
I'm still of the opinion that this is the wrong route to extend because the 112 has to plough through the heavy North Circular traffic and this could affect reliability even more than currently. Extending the 112 will not simply get cars off the North Circular like they're suggesting - further action is required across London to significantly reduce congestion. Also, TfL mention it's grown by 50% so where is the double deck conversion because it sees heavy loadings and has done so over the years For a route mainly on North Circular, could probably find 14m single decks would fit, some of the current buses are a mere 10.2m Personally not convinced double decks are a good choice on a road with many 40-50mph sections as just too cumbersome to keep up with other traffic
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Post by COBO on Sept 11, 2019 12:39:38 GMT
I'm still of the opinion that this is the wrong route to extend because the 112 has to plough through the heavy North Circular traffic and this could affect reliability even more than currently. Extending the 112 will not simply get cars off the North Circular like they're suggesting - further action is required across London to significantly reduce congestion. Also, TfL mention it's grown by 50% so where is the double deck conversion because it sees heavy loadings and has done so over the years For a route mainly on North Circular, could probably find 14m single decks would fit, some of the current buses are a mere 10.2m Personally not convinced double decks are a good choice on a road with many 40-50mph sections as just too cumbersome to keep up with other traffic Can 14m single deckers get around the 112? Double deckers frequently go on the 112 and they have no problems.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 11, 2019 13:16:36 GMT
I'm still of the opinion that this is the wrong route to extend because the 112 has to plough through the heavy North Circular traffic and this could affect reliability even more than currently. Extending the 112 will not simply get cars off the North Circular like they're suggesting - further action is required across London to significantly reduce congestion. Also, TfL mention it's grown by 50% so where is the double deck conversion because it sees heavy loadings and has done so over the years For a route mainly on North Circular, could probably find 14m single decks would fit, some of the current buses are a mere 10.2m Personally not convinced double decks are a good choice on a road with many 40-50mph sections as just too cumbersome to keep up with other traffic Only a couple of its allocation is 10.2m buses due to a PVR increase - the majority are 10.8m. Plenty of routes outside London use double deckers on substantial sections 40mph right up to NSL roads so if operators see no issues, then neither do I. The 112 has seen plenty of deckers including a temporary period where it had an official allocation - I'd much rather the extra capacity and deck personally over leaving it with very long single deckers that probably have to remain route bound.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Sept 11, 2019 14:10:05 GMT
Extending the 112 will not simply get cars off the North Circular like they're suggesting - further action is required across London to significantly reduce congestion. TfL and a certain type of local politician seem to be very fond of making this kind of lazy assertion - have seen it to justify cycle routes too. People just don't switch mode like that, and many of those drivers won't be local but making longer journeys so won't be able to switch mode. I don't know the 112 very well, but if you've got a car, the only thing that will tempt you out of your nice cosy car stuck in a traffic jam on the North Circular Road would be the frequent sight of a 112 speeding past you in its own dedicated lane, or on its own green phase at traffic lights, with plenty of seats to spare. It's good to see some pre-election investment in the outer network, but there's more to tempting (and, ultimately forcing) drivers out of private cars than just saying "here's a bus, it's the same bus you had before, but it's now three miles longer".
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Post by busoccultation on Sept 11, 2019 15:20:07 GMT
Personally not convinced double decks are a good choice on a road with many 40-50mph sections as just too cumbersome to keep up with other traffic Absolute Nonsense, as the 66 which spends most of time on the A12 and the 173 uses the A13 for almost half of its route of which both routes have been converted from single deckers to double deckers a few years ago and there is nothing wrong having double deckers on both routes in fact having double deckers gives a better journey experience from both a passenger and enthusiast point of view. Also, double deckers can keep up with other traffic on faster roads in the same way as single deckers does. As for the 112 being extended, I'm happy for it be extended to North Finchley as planned as long as its done in following two conditions which are to be fully converted to double deckers and to have plenty of stand time at both ends of the route on most times of the day as a reliability measure.
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Post by evergreenadam on Sept 11, 2019 15:50:25 GMT
Double deckers are much more comfortable than single deckers along the fast sections of the A4 on route H91 too. The top floor is very popular especially for those on long journeys.
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Post by rif153 on Sept 11, 2019 15:56:44 GMT
I'm still of the opinion that this is the wrong route to extend because the 112 has to plough through the heavy North Circular traffic and this could affect reliability even more than currently. Extending the 112 will not simply get cars off the North Circular like they're suggesting - further action is required across London to significantly reduce congestion. Also, TfL mention it's grown by 50% so where is the double deck conversion because it sees heavy loadings and has done so over the years For a route mainly on North Circular, could probably find 14m single decks would fit, some of the current buses are a mere 10.2m Personally not convinced double decks are a good choice on a road with many 40-50mph sections as just too cumbersome to keep up with other traffic I don't see 14m single deckers doing the turns in the Ealing area on the 112 with ease, happy to be proven wrong though
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Post by rif153 on Sept 11, 2019 16:17:34 GMT
The penny drops at last.
As others have said, the 112 needs a conversion to double deckers to help cope with demand, the route is very well used. Certainly at school times, I hope DD journeys are timetabled to help cope with the immense demand, as the 112 will not be able to cope with the school loadings if the 611 is withdrawn. The passengers displaced from the double deck 611 swamping the already packed single deckers on the 112 seems like a recipe for disaster. I hope the route at least gets a frequency increase during the peaks, ideally to every 8 minutes. The frequency increase is already needed, but will be needed more if the route is to remain with single deckers, and pick up the slack from the loss of the 611. If the route were to be decked, then the every 10 minute frequency should be sufficient. The issue with increasing the 112's frequency is that it makes TfL looks silly, if they were to withdraw the 460, then why replace it with a more frequent route.
If TfL were serious about this viable alternative to cars on the North Circular, they should put their money where their mouth is. Bus lanes along the North Circular would make using the 112 more appealing, it would be going faster than the cars, and consequently, it should encourage people to get out of their cars, and on to buses. Meanwhile, the reduced volume of traffic on the North Circular would be people making necesarry journeys, however, driving along the North Circular would be made even more unappealing. I accept that this idea is flawed in practice, but I see it as a viable solution to reliability issues which may plague the extended 112.
Now for the elephant in the room, the 460. I can see it getting withdrawn now, but why wasn't it included in this consultation? I think Henly's Corner to Golders Green is grossly overbussed, so the removal of the 460 from there should help reduce bus services to a more suitable level. Others are better qualified than me to talk about buses on that section, but if the 13 and 102 will struggle without the 460, then some peak extras on the 13 should help to alleviate this. Henly's Corner to North Finchley should be alright, but the single deckers on the 112, plus the fact the 112 dosen't offer a connection to the Northern Line at Golders Green as the 460 does may be problematic. My guess for why it wasn't included in the consultation, mayoral elections next year, so TfL will save it until 2020. It would be quite nice if there were to be a transition period where people could get used to the new 112 before the loss of the 460.
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Post by rif153 on Sept 11, 2019 16:19:40 GMT
This turn is currently banned, but initial work indicates that a ‘buses only’ right turn should be possible. Detailed work will now be undertaken and the local highway authority, Barnet Council would consult on any changes locally. Otherwise, buses would need to use the gyratory via the main shopping high street.
Its not the first time TfL have proposed work to facilitate a bus only turn for the 112 where the turn is currently banned *cough* North Circular into Madeley Road
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Post by Green Kitten on Sept 11, 2019 16:55:12 GMT
Thought the 112 would be extended via Temple Fortune and Finchley Central so this is a nice surprise. A little trick up the sleeve from the planners. This will help out the 232 post Brent Cross and provide some cool links from Brent Cross to North Finchley and Finchley Lido.
I presume the 460 is safe then as Golders Green to Temple Fortune and beyond needs the extra buses. Cutting the 460 at this point would be a mistake.
My issues with this plan... a minor one - the 611 directly serves the schools... now the kids gotta wait literally on the North Circular coming home now - not the nicest place to wait and quite dangerous too.
The 112 I hope will become a double deck bus, or at least have DD school buses scheduled as part of the proposal. 50% increase in demand doesn’t lie. A recent 20% increase in capacity (5bph to 6bph) is a good start but the extra links and the loss of the 611 will increase demand even further! (People going from the St. Raff’s/Brent Park area beyond Brent Cross will opt for the more direct 112 rather than the 232 as well).
I’m not convinced about snowman’s preference of 14m buses (London is iffy about 12m buses so 14m buses ain’t gonna happen) over DDs. Plenty of routes that mainly travel on fast roads have been upgraded to DDs over the years - 66, 173 and H91 for instance. A route which quickly cuts through London (North Circular traffic permitting), linking stations between different tube lines where the Overground don’t (Central to Piccadilly to Central to Bakerloo to Jubilee(ish) to Northern(ish)) will attract a lot of long distance journeys. DD 112s I’ve taken have had quite a few passengers joining me in the top deck. To be quite honest it was a shame the trees along Gladstone Park couldn’t have been looked at in order to deck the 232 (I saw plenty of full buses with standees to the door when I was living in Wood Green), but that is one of the route’s busiest sections and the 112 should help out the other end. The 232 has pishy feeble little StreetLites for the next 5 years though. Bleech.
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 11, 2019 17:16:52 GMT
For a route mainly on North Circular, could probably find 14m single decks would fit, some of the current buses are a mere 10.2m Personally not convinced double decks are a good choice on a road with many 40-50mph sections as just too cumbersome to keep up with other traffic I don't see 14m single deckers doing the turns in the Ealing area on the 112 with ease, happy to be proven wrong though Now as far as coaches go the rear wheels are steerable and are said to be far more moveable than shorter 2 axel coaches ... But they cost a bit more.
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