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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 13:35:38 GMT
I wonder what would have happened had Bendies not been withdrawn by Boris. Would we have seen from contract renewals TFL pursuing hybrid ones (if they exist) or would tfl have returned to DDs (particularly with the drop in demand in Central London). Would a bendy 436 be running to Battersea Park now or a 73 just to Oxo with the crush loads out of Victoria being switched from the Artic 73 to DD 390). I guess only the 207 could still be using them as it's not required to be Hybrid but even those ones would have been 14 years old now. I suspect they would all be gone by now anyway particularly given the running costs associated with Citaros. Possibly a few might have been moved onto suburban routes, the 108,227 and H37 being possible candidate as they are busy routes that are restricted to single deckers but there might well be infrastructure problems.
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 18, 2019 14:34:33 GMT
Possibly still been on the 507/521 due to them being very suited to the routes.
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Post by T.R. on Sept 18, 2019 16:22:03 GMT
I think Uno had some in Northampton, First Capital Connect ran them on the Luton Airport Parkway shuttle for a while, and CT Plus used them on Olympic Park employee shuttles?
I’m of two minds about them. On the upside, the high backed seats (if you got one) were comfortable and they were effective at clearing the crowds on the Red Arrows. They weren’t too bad (in my experience) on the 207/436/453 either.
But (again, my opinion) — the conversion of the trunk routes (12, 18, 25, 29, 38, 73, 149) went too far. Given that the Overground & cycleways weren’t developed yet, using any of the trunk routes end-to end can’t have been a pleasurable commute.
Also didn’t Mr Munster’s website mention that Metrolines first stint on the 24 got burned by 38s at Cambridge Circus?
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Post by vjaska on Sept 18, 2019 16:45:07 GMT
Possibly still been on the 507/521 due to them being very suited to the routes. In reply to your earlier post, I seem to remember Mercedes looking at developing a hybrid rigid Citaro, not sure if that still is the case but that could of been one way to replace the Artics with a hybrid Artic though likely I suspect they would of probably been replaced by Euro VI diesel versions in any event.
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 18, 2019 17:33:49 GMT
Possibly still been on the 507/521 due to them being very suited to the routes. In reply to your earlier post, I seem to remember Mercedes looking at developing a hybrid rigid Citaro, not sure if that still is the case but that could of been one way to replace the Artics with a hybrid Artic though likely I suspect they would of probably been replaced by Euro VI diesel versions in any event. Thanks for that. Whislt I wasn't totally against the bendy bus and feel they were withdrawn prematurely I'm not sorry that they are not around anymore.
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Post by redbus on Sept 18, 2019 19:22:44 GMT
I wonder what would have happened had Bendies not been withdrawn by Boris. Would we have seen from contract renewals TFL pursuing hybrid ones (if they exist) or would tfl have returned to DDs (particularly with the drop in demand in Central London). Would a bendy 436 be running to Battersea Park now or a 73 just to Oxo with the crush loads out of Victoria being switched from the Artic 73 to DD 390). I guess only the 207 could still be using them as it's not required to be Hybrid but even those ones would have been 14 years old now. Contract renewals would have been interesting as unlike Boris buses the bendies were owned by the Operators. So come tender time it would have been tough for anyone other than the incumbent to give a tender with existing buses as opposed to new ones.
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 18, 2019 19:51:36 GMT
Be interesting to know how TFL have liked the bussiness model of owning the NB4Ls as leasing them to the operators. It has in some ways made it easier to pass vehicles from operator to operator and saving operators being stuck with buses from freq reductions or needing to buy new ones for a tender. The reduction of the 59/253/4 have provided enough buses to Arriva for the 67 and now the buses will move when awarded to LG. Same as Metroline will hand the buses to Abellio rather then being landed with 20 or so buses and Abellio having to purchase more. Would it make sense for TFL to again buy 1000 buses with a standard inside pattern and pass them around as and when are needed? Or has this proved to be a bad decision?
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Post by snowman on Sept 18, 2019 20:54:34 GMT
Be interesting to know how TFL have liked the bussiness model of owning the NB4Ls as leasing them to the operators. It has in some ways made it easier to pass vehicles from operator to operator and saving operators being stuck with buses from freq reductions or needing to buy new ones for a tender. The reduction of the 59/253/4 have provided enough buses to Arriva for the 67 and now the buses will move when awarded to LG. Same as Metroline will hand the buses to Abellio rather then being landed with 20 or so buses and Abellio having to purchase more. Would it make sense for TFL to again buy 1000 buses with a standard inside pattern and pass them around as and when are needed? Or has this proved to be a bad decision? TfL have a borrowing limit and looking at the Audit Committee papers which went up today, the majority of the borrowing headroom is already used. I suspect whatever the operating advantages, having to find the £300m up front whilst money is tight makes no sense. Money is so tight, having to sell the family silver, 55 Broadway for £120m. Flogged the class 345 Crossrail trains (and renting them back) to have any hope of getting new Piccadilly line trains Postponed (or slowed) various big capital projects like Camden and Holborn station upgrades.
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Post by snowman on Sept 18, 2019 21:09:43 GMT
Arriva had MA 1-157 and later gained 161-166 (about 65 went to Malta) First had 11000-11084 ? Go Ahead had MAL 1-120 Stagecoach/ ELBG had 23001-23077
The other big groups Metroline, Transdev (now RATP), National Express (now Abellio) avoided having them
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Post by busaholic on Sept 18, 2019 21:28:34 GMT
Possibly still been on the 507/521 due to them being very suited to the routes. In reply to your earlier post, I seem to remember Mercedes looking at developing a hybrid rigid Citaro, not sure if that still is the case but that could of been one way to replace the Artics with a hybrid Artic though likely I suspect they would of probably been replaced by Euro VI diesel versions in any event. Mercedes Benz are developing electric Citaros, both rigid and articulated, under the name E-CELL. Their website refers to opinion shifting in favour of roof-based solutions, i.e. pantographs or 'trolley arms' (MB's words!), although plug-in options will be available too (for now.) I think this will be the future for the slectric bus, or trolleybus as they may become known. Whether Daimler MB will develop right hand drive versions remains to be seen, but lhd examples are being produced right now.
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Post by redbus on Sept 18, 2019 22:50:54 GMT
In reply to your earlier post, I seem to remember Mercedes looking at developing a hybrid rigid Citaro, not sure if that still is the case but that could of been one way to replace the Artics with a hybrid Artic though likely I suspect they would of probably been replaced by Euro VI diesel versions in any event. Mercedes Benz are developing electric Citaros, both rigid and articulated, under the name E-CELL. Their website refers to opinion shifting in favour of roof-based solutions, i.e. pantographs or 'trolley arms' (MB's words!), although plug-in options will be available too (for now.) I think this will be the future for the slectric bus, or trolleybus as they may become known. Whether Daimler MB will develop right hand drive versions remains to be seen, but lhd examples are being produced right now. I am less than convinced now that trolley buses are the future, I used to think they might be. Why my change of mind, trolleybuses need a lot of expensive infrastructure on the one hand, and on the other I believe battery technology will improve sufficiently over the coming years that a battery only operated bus will be the better bet.
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Post by redbus on Sept 18, 2019 22:55:00 GMT
Be interesting to know how TFL have liked the bussiness model of owning the NB4Ls as leasing them to the operators. It has in some ways made it easier to pass vehicles from operator to operator and saving operators being stuck with buses from freq reductions or needing to buy new ones for a tender. The reduction of the 59/253/4 have provided enough buses to Arriva for the 67 and now the buses will move when awarded to LG. Same as Metroline will hand the buses to Abellio rather then being landed with 20 or so buses and Abellio having to purchase more. Would it make sense for TFL to again buy 1000 buses with a standard inside pattern and pass them around as and when are needed? Or has this proved to be a bad decision? TfL have a borrowing limit and looking at the Audit Committee papers which went up today, the majority of the borrowing headroom is already used. I suspect whatever the operating advantages, having to find the £300m up front whilst money is tight makes no sense. Money is so tight, having to sell the family silver, 55 Broadway for £120m. Flogged the class 345 Crossrail trains (and renting them back) to have any hope of getting new Piccadilly line trains Postponed (or slowed) various big capital projects like Camden and Holborn station upgrades. You make good arguments as to why TfL perhaps should own buses and indeed I would add to that that TfL can borrow more cheaply than the Operators, further reducing costs. Having said that, as snowman says, whatever the merits of TfL buying buses, they simply don't have the money or borrowing capacity to do this.
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Post by busaholic on Sept 19, 2019 13:35:47 GMT
TfL have a borrowing limit and looking at the Audit Committee papers which went up today, the majority of the borrowing headroom is already used. I suspect whatever the operating advantages, having to find the £300m up front whilst money is tight makes no sense. Money is so tight, having to sell the family silver, 55 Broadway for £120m. Flogged the class 345 Crossrail trains (and renting them back) to have any hope of getting new Piccadilly line trains Postponed (or slowed) various big capital projects like Camden and Holborn station upgrades. You make good arguments as to why TfL perhaps should own buses and indeed I would add to that that TfL can borrow more cheaply than the Operators, further reducing costs. Having said that, as snowman says, whatever the merits of TfL buying buses, they simply don't have the money or borrowing capacity to do this. If TfL own the buses, why not go the whole hog and operate them (again)?!
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Post by busaholic on Sept 19, 2019 13:43:08 GMT
Mercedes Benz are developing electric Citaros, both rigid and articulated, under the name E-CELL. Their website refers to opinion shifting in favour of roof-based solutions, i.e. pantographs or 'trolley arms' (MB's words!), although plug-in options will be available too (for now.) I think this will be the future for the slectric bus, or trolleybus as they may become known. Whether Daimler MB will develop right hand drive versions remains to be seen, but lhd examples are being produced right now. I am less than convinced now that trolley buses are the future, I used to think they might be. Why my change of mind, trolleybuses need a lot of expensive infrastructure on the one hand, and on the other I believe battery technology will improve sufficiently over the coming years that a battery only operated bus will be the better bet. Trams without overhead wiring (except at selected points for recharging) COULD be the way ahead if this country ever gets to grip again with how to put down rails on roads without fouling up whole neighbourhoods for five years i.e. principally, by ensuring utility companies are responsible both legally and financially for relocation costs.
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Post by redbus on Sept 19, 2019 17:06:13 GMT
I am less than convinced now that trolley buses are the future, I used to think they might be. Why my change of mind, trolleybuses need a lot of expensive infrastructure on the one hand, and on the other I believe battery technology will improve sufficiently over the coming years that a battery only operated bus will be the better bet. Trams without overhead wiring (except at selected points for recharging) COULD be the way ahead if this country ever gets to grip again with how to put down rails on roads without fouling up whole neighbourhoods for five years i.e. principally, by ensuring utility companies are responsible both legally and financially for relocation costs. Quite possible, but if battery technology comes good as I think (perhaps I am being too hopeful), then the need for recharging at selected points may not be required as the batteries will last at least all day.
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