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Post by allentc on Sept 25, 2019 7:12:08 GMT
I see there is some discussion in a NBFL thread but it deserves a dedicated thread of its own.
Ian Paisley Jr says it is likely the firm will go into administration today after failing to strike a deal with Weichai and latterly industrialist Darren Donnelly:
With the benefit of hindsight Mark Nodder's retirement back in April was very well timed...!
The original Gemini was a ground breaking product that took a lot of sales away from then market leader combo ALX400/President and thrusted Wright into the limelight having only previously been a small player with the Dart based Handybus and the Crusader. Back then the Nokia phone type-styling made the existing products on the market look dated and the build quality was second to none although I gather it had issues with being much heavier than its competitors - probably due to over-engineering caused by it being their first foray into the double deck market and Wright's keenness to get it correct first time round. The Gemini body was available on several chassis and was a sales hit for many years. There were blink-and-you'll-miss-it facelifts and refinements over the years but it did keep selling in significant numbers.
Fast forward today and where did it go wrong?
- Was it their decision to copy ADL and Optare and shift focus towards integrals?
- I have heard that the Streetdeck has had a lot of quality issues. Certainly the styling was controversial and it was quickly modified for some buyers with glass wrapped upper pillars. The Streetlite doesn't seem to have much love out their among bus enthusiasts and again there are anecdotal stories of poor reliability and build quality.
- Was there an over reliance on the NBFL contract a lack of a plan to deal with the end of the contract and what to do with the excess capacity and loss of revenue. - Were they too dependent on the UK market and a small part of Asia? ADL have made significant inroads into USA/Canada market with the E500 and lately Europe (Berlin and Switzerland), South America (Mexico), New Zealand and Singapore. I vaguely recall somewhere that exports account for about 50% of ADL's revenue lessening their reliance on the slow UK market.
What happens now? I'm guessing a Chinese buyer will swoop in and buy up the tooling, designs and intellectual property. They might keep a small work force there to assemble knock down kits sent from China and perhaps keep a small R&D team to pursue new technologies. There is past form with LDV vans, LTI and MG Rover Group. Why take on a failing company with all the risks/liabilities when you can let it go bust and cherry pick the valuable bits for a fraction of the price.
Who will provide parts for the existing buses out there? Perhaps one of the aftermarket parts houses like Carlyle or Heavy Duty parts will buy up the parts stock and keep the supply going.
Will be a shame if it disappears entirely. Competition is good and I think they forced ADL to up their game and improve the quality and standards of their product. Otherwise ADL is left as the only major player with a bit-part played by Optare. There is a real chance for Optare to make some major headway especially into the London market now with the Metrodecker if Wright falls out of the equation.
It would be interesting to hear your views.
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Post by snowman on Sept 25, 2019 9:47:50 GMT
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Post by shroudoffrost on Sept 25, 2019 10:16:57 GMT
Now officially entered administration as of 1100 today
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Post by londonbusboy on Sept 25, 2019 10:58:44 GMT
When i was at Camberwell for a training session John Trayner said he isnt ordering anymore Volvos until they overcome an issue (i cant remember what this was but think its to do with the exhaust system) Perhaps this issue with Volvo stopped orders from Wrightbus.
Could Optare go the same way? The Metrodecker seems to be a failure and then we dont really see many other Optare products in London. ADL seem to produce the only 8.9m vehicles as well
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Post by snoggle on Sept 25, 2019 11:58:29 GMT
I suspect that several bus companies may have warranty issues with Wrightbus. Some tried to cut their risk by changing supplier but not all. Also interested to know what risks now land at TfL's door if no rescue can be put together. Last thing TfL needs is more financial exposure in respect of the NB4L over the £60m ?? it's already allowed for battery replacement etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 12:01:46 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 25, 2019 12:04:59 GMT
When i was at Camberwell for a training session John Trayner said he isnt ordering anymore Volvos until they overcome an issue (i cant remember what this was but think its to do with the exhaust system) Perhaps this issue with Volvo stopped orders from Wrightbus. Could Optare go the same way? The Metrodecker seems to be a failure and then we dont really see many other Optare products in London. ADL seem to produce the only 8.9m vehicles as well Optare is part of the enormous Ashok Leyland empire. I should think they will be ok in the medium term, regardless of London orders or lack of them.
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Post by allentc on Sept 25, 2019 12:08:25 GMT
Could Optare go the same way? The Metrodecker seems to be a failure and then we dont really see many other Optare products in London. ADL seem to produce the only 8.9m vehicles as well Optare have very strong backing from the Ashok Leyland so they are secure. The Metrodecker EV seems to have found some sales in London and if Metroline's experience go well they could quite possibly win more orders from other operators since electric buses seem to be the direction we are heading in. I seemed to remember reading somewhere that the Metrodecker EV is considerably lighter than other proposed offerings and yet offers a similar range which is quite an engineering achievement. As for short buses I suppose the Solo could pick up more sales again.
A "bit off the wall"...but I wonder if Ashok Leyland would be interested in acquiring some of Wrightbus to combine it with Optare? They are two very different companies but would have the might, network/support and engineering know-how to take on ADL if combined. Otherwise a Chinese buyer is to me, the most probable outcome. I doubt New Flyer Industries/ADL would be interested...I can't see what they would gain apart from another UK based factory which they probably don't need at the moment.
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 25, 2019 12:11:58 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase To be honest, I think they did listen to their biggest customer First, who wanted lightweight fuel efficient buses.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 25, 2019 12:19:31 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase To be honest, I think they did listen to their biggest customer First, who wanted lightweight fuel efficient buses. They should of listened to their other customers in regards to build quality which is one reason they all switched away.
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Post by John tuthill on Sept 25, 2019 12:21:54 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase How can it be 'progress' when the LT type bus weighs 12tons+? If carting around a dirty great battery is progress, don't know what all this weight is doing to the bus lanes, maybe the answer WAS to go back to trollybus infrastructure
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Post by snowman on Sept 25, 2019 12:38:20 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase Wrightbus seemed to lose direction in last few years, they opened the chassis plant (which made the Borismaster chassis and later the streetdeck chassis (which is apparently identical from front to rear axle), but they never invested in their own hybrid version of the streetdeck The single deck range seemed to shrink over time, to the streetlite and a small number of heavyweight buses for established customers I guess someone might buy the part built buses for spare parts (although the components could be subject to retention of title by suppliers which may scupper this) I assume any ongoing maintenance contracts effectively void, Wrightbus can't deliver and customers presumably stop paying, not sure if there are any warranties but I suspect they will be useless now. My thoughts on spare parts, clearly some will no longer be available, some Operators might have a few in stock, possibly someone else will make them, but more likely it will lead to a broken down or crashed bus having to be stripped to keep remainder of fleet operational.
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Post by YY13VKP on Sept 25, 2019 12:51:07 GMT
Can't quite believe Wrightbus have got to this point, and its a massive shame. Back in 2014/2015, the Gemini 3 was extremely popular with London operators and was most people's choice for new double decks, they even won an order from Stagecoach which at the time hardly had any Wrightbus products in its fleet. If anyone would've been in a bit of trouble at the time I would've thought it was ADL as the Enviro400H MMC didn't really take off in London until late 2015 and the E200MMC until 2016.
I have noticed however the quality of Wrightbus's products dropping slightly. The original Gemini's and Gemini 2's were well built products, but the Gemini 3 and Streetlite feel like they've been cheaply made and have probably contributed to the downfall of Wright. I've also been hearing feedback from drivers about the Streetlites being terrible to drive, and drivers much prefer to drive the Enviro400 MMC over the Gemini 3's, which is probably why Go-Ahead have switched to ADL for their orders over the past year. They were ordering Streetlites all the time for single deck routes but recent non-electric single deck orders have been E200MMCs and I can see why.
I do hope they receive some kind of investment though, and I think they will. It would be really sad to see them go under and it would give ADL and Optare a near monopoly in the UK bus market. Just a quick question, if Wright have made staff redundant and the company finds a buyer and gets out of administration, would those staff automatically regain their jobs?
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Post by YY13VKP on Sept 25, 2019 12:53:08 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase To be honest, I think they did listen to their biggest customer First, who wanted lightweight fuel efficient buses. It angers me that First could quite easily invest in new buses for areas such as Huddersfield but instead continue on with their ageing fleet of double decks in particular. The lack of new bus orders in recent years is one of the main reasons why Wright finds itself in administration
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Post by wivenswold on Sept 25, 2019 12:58:10 GMT
My thoughts are with all of the affected people and their families. This is devastating news for the area and Northern Ireland as a whole.
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