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Post by vjaska on Sept 25, 2019 16:24:49 GMT
I see there is some discussion in a NBFL thread but it deserves a dedicated thread of its own. Ian Paisley Jr says it is likely the firm will go into administration today after failing to strike a deal with Weichai and latterly industrialist Darren Donnelly:
With the benefit of hindsight Mark Nodder's retirement back in April was very well timed...! The original Gemini was a ground breaking product that took a lot of sales away from then market leader combo ALX400/President and thrusted Wright into the limelight having only previously been a small player with the Dart based Handybus and the Crusader. Back then the Nokia phone type-styling made the existing products on the market look dated and the build quality was second to none although I gather it had issues with being much heavier than its competitors - probably due to over-engineering caused by it being their first foray into the double deck market and Wright's keenness to get it correct first time round. The Gemini body was available on several chassis and was a sales hit for many years. There were blink-and-you'll-miss-it facelifts and refinements over the years but it did keep selling in significant numbers.
Fast forward today and where did it go wrong?
- Was it their decision to copy ADL and Optare and shift focus towards integrals?
- I have heard that the Streetdeck has had a lot of quality issues. Certainly the styling was controversial and it was quickly modified for some buyers with glass wrapped upper pillars. The Streetlite doesn't seem to have much love out their among bus enthusiasts and again there are anecdotal stories of poor reliability and build quality.
- Was there an over reliance on the NBFL contract a lack of a plan to deal with the end of the contract and what to do with the excess capacity and loss of revenue. - Were they too dependent on the UK market and a small part of Asia? ADL have made significant inroads into USA/Canada market with the E500 and lately Europe (Berlin and Switzerland), South America (Mexico), New Zealand and Singapore. I vaguely recall somewhere that exports account for about 50% of ADL's revenue lessening their reliance on the slow UK market.
What happens now? I'm guessing a Chinese buyer will swoop in and buy up the tooling, designs and intellectual property. They might keep a small work force there to assemble knock down kits sent from China and perhaps keep a small R&D team to pursue new technologies. There is past form with LDV vans, LTI and MG Rover Group. Why take on a failing company with all the risks/liabilities when you can let it go bust and cherry pick the valuable bits for a fraction of the price.
Who will provide parts for the existing buses out there? Perhaps one of the aftermarket parts houses like Carlyle or Heavy Duty parts will buy up the parts stock and keep the supply going.
Will be a shame if it disappears entirely. Competition is good and I think they forced ADL to up their game and improve the quality and standards of their product. Otherwise ADL is left as the only major player with a bit-part played by Optare. There is a real chance for Optare to make some major headway especially into the London market now with the Metrodecker if Wright falls out of the equation.
It would be interesting to hear your views.
Here's my own thoughts on what went wrong: 1) I don't think switching focus to integral products was necessarily wrong but it seems it wasn't done correctly although ADL have had far longer in terms of producing integral products. Optare had a few years head start on them with relative small success but I'm doubtful Wrightbus would of looked at what they're doing. 2) The Streetlite has had many issues although many were rectified when Euro VI came in - the DF version was found to be better overall and Wrightbus eventually started offering the 9.5m in that mode (was previously WF only), the Cummins option was underpowered and was accompanied by the Daimler option which is a massive improvement (SLS on the 410 & 450 don't struggle with the steep hills around Palace & South Norwood) & the steering was improved on WF models which had untold problems on older models. I could be wrong but the Streetlite sold quite well even towards the end when the Gemini3 had stopped being ordered much earlier so probably the Streetlite has a small part to play in it. I think the Streetdeck's main issue was power under the hood - orders were still coming in for them and there was one sent out to Go North East? with a much more powerful engine so was doing better than the Gemini3 3) I think they put their eggs near enough in one basket with the NBfL contract and I think this amongst two other points is a significant factor. 4) Losing massive long term customers like Metroline & Lothian due to quality concerns over the Gemini3 has surely played it's part. Coupled with their being less new buses being ordered, that has surely contributed greatly. It says a lot when Metroline would rather order buses that are cosmetically lower quality build (MCV Evoseti) but which aren't plagued by structural issues. I also think price played it's art too as I heard rumours that it's pricing on the double deckers was putting customers off - the Streetlite in comparison had a good deal in place. 5) Continually ignoring the rise of electric buses has heavily cost them - just look at ADL & BYD partnership. Even Optare have got something going even if reliability issues have plagued the Metrocity EV - it at least shows that they're trying to head in the right direction unlike Wrightbus who were more interested in Hydrogen which hasn't seen much appetite from operators. Even Scania got something going with the BioFuel vehicles they have in operation in various parts of the UK.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 25, 2019 16:26:55 GMT
Personally I think Wright should have followed ADLs lead and worked with their customers on new model of bus. It was the best decision ADL ever made to collaborate and consult with large customers both TfL and non-TfL on the MMCs. Maybe if Wright did this they would have a product people wanted want to purchase Wrightbus seemed to lose direction in last few years, they opened the chassis plant (which made the Borismaster chassis and later the streetdeck chassis (which is apparently identical from front to rear axle), but they never invested in their own hybrid version of the streetdeck The single deck range seemed to shrink over time, to the streetlite and a small number of heavyweight buses for established customers I guess someone might buy the part built buses for spare parts (although the components could be subject to retention of title by suppliers which may scupper this) I assume any ongoing maintenance contracts effectively void, Wrightbus can't deliver and customers presumably stop paying, not sure if there are any warranties but I suspect they will be useless now. My thoughts on spare parts, clearly some will no longer be available, some Operators might have a few in stock, possibly someone else will make them, but more likely it will lead to a broken down or crashed bus having to be stripped to keep remainder of fleet operational. I think they thought they would have gained extra sales from TfL (if Boris was still there) and then from other operators around the country. I would blame part of the LT for their demise. One downside of the Streetdeck compared to the DB300 was the loss of the front offside seat.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 25, 2019 16:30:08 GMT
Already having issues as they could not get hold of a new fuel tank for a WVL at Morden Wharf that was leaking diesel. Engineers said they simply couldn't get one since Wrights closed their parts center in Orpington, and said they couldn't get one anywhere else for whatever reason. As you say, 'for whatever reason' Why can't they get the leak fixed? Remove it, drain it,weld up the leak. I did just that 30 years ago on a Triumph Herald!! Are these tanks such a pecular shape that nothing else will do?! Would probably void the warranty if that was done. IIRC the tanks are aluminium so would have to be brazed.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 25, 2019 16:31:15 GMT
Optare have very strong backing from the Ashok Leyland so they are secure. The Metrodecker EV seems to have found some sales in London and if Metroline's experience go well they could quite possibly win more orders from other operators since electric buses seem to be the direction we are heading in. I seemed to remember reading somewhere that the Metrodecker EV is considerably lighter than other proposed offerings and yet offers a similar range which is quite an engineering achievement. As for short buses I suppose the Solo could pick up more sales again.
A "bit off the wall"...but I wonder if Ashok Leyland would be interested in acquiring some of Wrightbus to combine it with Optare? They are two very different companies but would have the might, network/support and engineering know-how to take on ADL if combined. Otherwise a Chinese buyer is to me, the most probable outcome. I doubt New Flyer Industries/ADL would be interested...I can't see what they would gain apart from another UK based factory which they probably don't need at the moment.
The Metrodecker was released years ago with no serious orders until Metrolines recent batch. You would think operators would jump at a vehicle being so lightweight but i suspect the quality is poor which is keeping them away. Solos the wheels are right at the front which doesnt always work well (i have colleagues that drive single door WS and they moan about where the front wheels are) Optare have been making the Solo as a WF product since it's birth in the 90's and even won awards for the vehicle so you'd of thought Wrightbus would of looked at how Optare got it working on a Solo because I agree that the WF Streetlites have had problems with the steering & the position of the wheels. Reading placed an order for 5 Metrodeckers before Metroline who were absolutely thrilled with the demonstrator they trialed - they're due at the end of the year I believe. I think Optare struggle with the whole marketing side of things which probably is why there hasn't been many other orders though this could change if these batches are successful which hopefully they are so we got some competition going.
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Post by londonbusboy on Sept 25, 2019 16:36:37 GMT
When i was at Camberwell for a training session John Trayner said he isnt ordering anymore Volvos until they overcome an issue (i cant remember what this was but think its to do with the exhaust system) Perhaps this issue with Volvo stopped orders from Wrightbus. Could Optare go the same way? The Metrodecker seems to be a failure and then we dont really see many other Optare products in London. ADL seem to produce the only 8.9m vehicles as wellThere warranty seems to be a problem and parts supply chain. I don't know if it is down to a lack of funds etc. but it has been months operators have had problems with vehicles off the road awaiting parts or warranty for long periods of time which inevitably costs NSB's etc. I really cant say Optare would fall, they have changed hands many times over the years, even Dennis in the late 80's nearly went down, they were very small compared to the likes of Leyland, MCW, Volvo, Scania for the bus market. Their ability to come up with the Dart using the driveline that was already popular in the MCW Metrorider, but come up with a better chassis on a shrunken single decker was a winner.
Not sure what you meant by ADL seem to produce 8.9m only.
Sorry what i meant was ADL seem to be the only ones who produce a short single decker (single door)
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 25, 2019 16:38:01 GMT
I see there is some discussion in a NBFL thread but it deserves a dedicated thread of its own. Ian Paisley Jr says it is likely the firm will go into administration today after failing to strike a deal with Weichai and latterly industrialist Darren Donnelly:
With the benefit of hindsight Mark Nodder's retirement back in April was very well timed...! The original Gemini was a ground breaking product that took a lot of sales away from then market leader combo ALX400/President and thrusted Wright into the limelight having only previously been a small player with the Dart based Handybus and the Crusader. Back then the Nokia phone type-styling made the existing products on the market look dated and the build quality was second to none although I gather it had issues with being much heavier than its competitors - probably due to over-engineering caused by it being their first foray into the double deck market and Wright's keenness to get it correct first time round. The Gemini body was available on several chassis and was a sales hit for many years. There were blink-and-you'll-miss-it facelifts and refinements over the years but it did keep selling in significant numbers.
Fast forward today and where did it go wrong?
- Was it their decision to copy ADL and Optare and shift focus towards integrals?
- I have heard that the Streetdeck has had a lot of quality issues. Certainly the styling was controversial and it was quickly modified for some buyers with glass wrapped upper pillars. The Streetlite doesn't seem to have much love out their among bus enthusiasts and again there are anecdotal stories of poor reliability and build quality.
- Was there an over reliance on the NBFL contract a lack of a plan to deal with the end of the contract and what to do with the excess capacity and loss of revenue. - Were they too dependent on the UK market and a small part of Asia? ADL have made significant inroads into USA/Canada market with the E500 and lately Europe (Berlin and Switzerland), South America (Mexico), New Zealand and Singapore. I vaguely recall somewhere that exports account for about 50% of ADL's revenue lessening their reliance on the slow UK market.
What happens now? I'm guessing a Chinese buyer will swoop in and buy up the tooling, designs and intellectual property. They might keep a small work force there to assemble knock down kits sent from China and perhaps keep a small R&D team to pursue new technologies. There is past form with LDV vans, LTI and MG Rover Group. Why take on a failing company with all the risks/liabilities when you can let it go bust and cherry pick the valuable bits for a fraction of the price.
Who will provide parts for the existing buses out there? Perhaps one of the aftermarket parts houses like Carlyle or Heavy Duty parts will buy up the parts stock and keep the supply going.
Will be a shame if it disappears entirely. Competition is good and I think they forced ADL to up their game and improve the quality and standards of their product. Otherwise ADL is left as the only major player with a bit-part played by Optare. There is a real chance for Optare to make some major headway especially into the London market now with the Metrodecker if Wright falls out of the equation.
It would be interesting to hear your views.
Well written, and it is a shame for any company to go under, but as an observation the products were never exciting. The then ground-breaking Nokia face became ubiquitous in B7TL guise with GAL and others (also in Arriva London South DW form) but I always remember them (especially the VLW's on the 243) for rattling panels, especially the glass sections by the exit doors. Bodges were done by AR with some sort of heavy-duty black mastic glue which just looked awful. (I won't mention the roaring fans as that was a Volvo thing). The baby brother to the Gemini / Pulsar was the Streetlite, which has remained unchanged (except a new Mercedes engine and Voith 4 speed box with stop start). Meanwhile ADL during the time of Wrighbus' Gemini had the ALX400, E400 and now the E400 MMC, and the backing of a decent engine provider. (Although Alexander, forerunner to ADL gave us the brilliant VDL DLA's ) I think with no more orders (I assume Go North East are taking the last of the Citaro engined StreetDecks) everyone will revert to ADL or Caetano. A Chinese buyer could come in and make crappy knock-offs of the brand, but even they realise their design was not that great. I think frequent Holiday shutdowns didn't help them (I remember hearing of various shutdowns whilst the 4 series DW's were being built), plus getting the buses onto a ferry to the mainland, and down the M6 to London put them at a disadvantage to ADL. Clumsy accidents during delivery (Tottenham HV's, prangs, bumps), or as we call in IT Out Of Box Failure / DOA when the product fails straight after delivery or has to go all the way back to Northern Ireland didn't help either. I guess this story has gotten lost in the turbulent political news of Bojo facing investigation for misleading the Queen / Trump in trouble for bribing Ukraine to dig dirt on Biden, his political opponent Administrators may oversee the last orders, but sadly they will be dealing with redundancies and selling off the buildings to no doubt become apartments in future... I thought the Frog Faces were bold but the StreetDeck could have been a success story with a 6 cylinder Cummins engine instead of one from a small Mercedes Atego truck... when they saw the Volvo B5TL was not selling either, I'm surprised none of them read reviews of the OM934 and how bad it was or saw YouTube videos and thought, 'cripes, we need to up our game here' and put a bigger engine in. They were too fixated on their international market (outside of Hong Kong, it was flogging the StreetDeck to anyone who'd take it... one ended up in South America somewhere and not dealing with the market at home, except filling niches no one was interested in. They were the Audi of the bus world with every possible model. from the SRM which no one bought after the ones on the 183, to the virtual electric version of the SRM (I think ended up on the 37 but they never made the charging infrastructure for it). They were even going to do a Daimler engined SRM with normal gearbox, following the success of the StreetDeck There has been a few prangs over the years with ADL deliveries also. I really feel the Streetdeck let them down as you say, they should have had the Cummins engine from the start with the Merc engine as an option.
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Post by John tuthill on Sept 25, 2019 16:44:21 GMT
As you say, 'for whatever reason' Why can't they get the leak fixed? Remove it, drain it,weld up the leak. I did just that 30 years ago on a Triumph Herald!! Are these tanks such a pecular shape that nothing else will do?! Would probably void the warranty if that was done. IIRC the tanks are aluminium so would have to be brazed. Thanks for that,but now I think the warranty is not much use. "Make do and mend" may be the watchword from now on.
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Post by enfieldenthusiast on Sept 25, 2019 17:25:37 GMT
So am I a little bit confused... Has it been 100% confirmed Wrightbus will never build a bus again or is there still hope?
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 25, 2019 17:34:39 GMT
So am I a little bit confused... Has it been 100% confirmed Wrightbus will never build a bus again or is there still hope? Not 100% confirmed, but seeing as they have just laid off over 90% of their staff ... it is looking likely.
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Post by allentc on Sept 25, 2019 17:40:53 GMT
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Post by rif153 on Sept 25, 2019 18:06:44 GMT
I see there is some discussion in a NBFL thread but it deserves a dedicated thread of its own. Ian Paisley Jr says it is likely the firm will go into administration today after failing to strike a deal with Weichai and latterly industrialist Darren Donnelly:
With the benefit of hindsight Mark Nodder's retirement back in April was very well timed...! The original Gemini was a ground breaking product that took a lot of sales away from then market leader combo ALX400/President and thrusted Wright into the limelight having only previously been a small player with the Dart based Handybus and the Crusader. Back then the Nokia phone type-styling made the existing products on the market look dated and the build quality was second to none although I gather it had issues with being much heavier than its competitors - probably due to over-engineering caused by it being their first foray into the double deck market and Wright's keenness to get it correct first time round. The Gemini body was available on several chassis and was a sales hit for many years. There were blink-and-you'll-miss-it facelifts and refinements over the years but it did keep selling in significant numbers.
Fast forward today and where did it go wrong?
- Was it their decision to copy ADL and Optare and shift focus towards integrals?
- I have heard that the Streetdeck has had a lot of quality issues. Certainly the styling was controversial and it was quickly modified for some buyers with glass wrapped upper pillars. The Streetlite doesn't seem to have much love out their among bus enthusiasts and again there are anecdotal stories of poor reliability and build quality.
- Was there an over reliance on the NBFL contract a lack of a plan to deal with the end of the contract and what to do with the excess capacity and loss of revenue. - Were they too dependent on the UK market and a small part of Asia? ADL have made significant inroads into USA/Canada market with the E500 and lately Europe (Berlin and Switzerland), South America (Mexico), New Zealand and Singapore. I vaguely recall somewhere that exports account for about 50% of ADL's revenue lessening their reliance on the slow UK market.
What happens now? I'm guessing a Chinese buyer will swoop in and buy up the tooling, designs and intellectual property. They might keep a small work force there to assemble knock down kits sent from China and perhaps keep a small R&D team to pursue new technologies. There is past form with LDV vans, LTI and MG Rover Group. Why take on a failing company with all the risks/liabilities when you can let it go bust and cherry pick the valuable bits for a fraction of the price.
Who will provide parts for the existing buses out there? Perhaps one of the aftermarket parts houses like Carlyle or Heavy Duty parts will buy up the parts stock and keep the supply going.
Will be a shame if it disappears entirely. Competition is good and I think they forced ADL to up their game and improve the quality and standards of their product. Otherwise ADL is left as the only major player with a bit-part played by Optare. There is a real chance for Optare to make some major headway especially into the London market now with the Metrodecker if Wright falls out of the equation.
It would be interesting to hear your views.
5) Continually ignoring the rise of electric buses has heavily cost them - just look at ADL & BYD partnership. Even Optare have got something going even if reliability issues have plagued the Metrocity EV - it at least shows that they're trying to head in the right direction unlike Wrightbus who were more interested in Hydrogen which hasn't seen much appetite from operators. Even Scania got something going with the BioFuel vehicles they have in operation in various parts of the UK. Their attempt to produce hydrogens hasn't seemed to work either. ADL/BYD are hoovering up all the orders, whilst the Wright Hydrogens have been very slow, and even though it is a start to foray into the zero emission market, it looks to be a case of too little too late.
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 25, 2019 19:03:19 GMT
Wrightbus seemed to lose direction in last few years, they opened the chassis plant (which made the Borismaster chassis and later the streetdeck chassis (which is apparently identical from front to rear axle), but they never invested in their own hybrid version of the streetdeck The single deck range seemed to shrink over time, to the streetlite and a small number of heavyweight buses for established customers I guess someone might buy the part built buses for spare parts (although the components could be subject to retention of title by suppliers which may scupper this) I assume any ongoing maintenance contracts effectively void, Wrightbus can't deliver and customers presumably stop paying, not sure if there are any warranties but I suspect they will be useless now. My thoughts on spare parts, clearly some will no longer be available, some Operators might have a few in stock, possibly someone else will make them, but more likely it will lead to a broken down or crashed bus having to be stripped to keep remainder of fleet operational. I think they thought they would have gained extra sales from TfL (if Boris was still there) and then from other operators around the country. I would blame part of the LT for their demise. One downside of the Streetdeck compared to the DB300 was the loss of the front offside seat.
They way they tried to flog the LT around the likes of Reading, Leeds and Edinburgh (all tried, but said nah) before shipping it off to Hong Kong where it was rejected for being a mobile greenhouse was very desperate... I think they put all their eggs in one basket with the LT as it didn't look as bad as their other products. Not sure about the Warranty process, but may be as much use as a Thomas Cook brochure now. For what remains of First, and also for the brave guys at Arriva Yorkshire who bought StreetDecks before they went bust, hopefully the Mercedes units are a lot more reliable than the Brighton & Hove ones It's a shame but when one of your biggest buyers (Arriva) would rather buy second hand ones from a lessor than new HV's or StreetDeck 96v HEVs for the 34 and 102, you know its bad news
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 19:33:23 GMT
I wonder could Wrightbus be resurrected like Alexander / Transbus was back in the early 00s.
PS is there any way the various threads could be merged together
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Post by danorak on Sept 25, 2019 19:46:17 GMT
Bus body manufacturing is cyclical. Every downturn claims another company who didn't realise the sun had gone in - Northern Counties, MCW, the original Transbus etc. The peaks of recent years were at least in part due to the need to meet PSVAR deadlines. Those buses won't need replacing for a while. The London boom is over and there's uncertainty about franchising in the big cities - if your business is going to be effectively taken off you, why invest in new fleets? Combine that with your standards seemingly dropping and not offering products people want and the result is inevitable. Hopefully something can be salvaged.
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Post by londonbuses2018 on Sept 25, 2019 20:00:45 GMT
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