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Post by capitalomnibus on Dec 17, 2019 1:34:51 GMT
If a bus is going over 20 MPH on a 20 MPH zone, it is breaking the law, 20 MPH isn't there for fancy decoration its there as a speed limit so it isn't ISA, ISA is simply following the speed limit that is set and the law. As I said, the problem is not ISA, it is the speed limit set, buses going over that limit are technically breaking the law, just because a bus is late, it does not give them the right to go say 25/30 MPH so regardless of whether it was enforced or not, that is the speed limit and that is the speed for that road so not one should be going faster. I like to look at the speed limit as more of a guide than something which should be stuck to stringently. I really don’t think these 20 mph zones will last. We will look back on this period and think we are absolutely bonkers for conceding to cyclists and motorists rather than investing in public transportation. It’s unsustainable to allow growing car usage and we should be looking at bus priority schemes or even just bus only areas in London to speed up journeys and hopefully make bus travel more attractive. Anyway I’ve deviated from the topic enough but if roads had appropriate speed limits then ISA is fine, however, with all these 20 zones popping up it’s an absolutely terrible idea. I think it would last, down to Labour policy that started this infection within inner London councils has now spread. You just don't get it, this would NOT encourage people from car usage, this is part of the problem with policies like this, they are not thought through, the same thing like that had some bus lanes put in places that did not help bus services, but put them behind cars as it was not continuous. Your bus priority areas or schemes as you say in London, would only just alienate people from the areas all-together. Ideas like this are SO out of touch with reality and almost on par with Corbyn and his 1970's ideas which the general public did not buy. It would only encourage people to move out.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Dec 17, 2019 1:38:27 GMT
As a bus driver I can't wait for limiters because at that point nobody can rant at bus driver for doing 20 in 20 at 1AM in morning which is sometimes a bit ridiculous on big wide roads, besides it's kind of 'difficult' to keep it at steady 20 so it's either 18 or 22mph, so yeah when we got limiters at least I can just put the foot down and know it will not go above 20 and can focus on the road more than staring at the dash if I am speeding by 1mph by pure accident, but then again I a not a fan of these 20mph zones and all...I know bus drivers who literally went to different garages just because their routes got so slow and/or went on different rotas so they can at least drive in 30mph zones...not because of pleasure of speeding, but because 20mph roads is major headache to drive when it's a big wide road and you are leading a train of 40 cars behind you. ISA makes things much easier for the driver. I'm open minded about 20mph limits, there are good and bad examples. Most drivers who I have spoken to about it, even with the trial that was with Go-Ahead on route 19 disliked it. It meant that due to not being able to exceed the speed limit, on certain trips they would depart stands early, ignore holding back for headways at times as they knew there was no way they could gain time. When there were trips that were tight, they would not wait for passengers who were running etc as they didn't have the time. They also said they noticed other vehicle users were less likely to let them out due to the vehicle being slow, even cyclists.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Dec 17, 2019 1:49:54 GMT
Whilst you may say the problem is the speed limit, it is a problem greatly exacberated by ISA I have to ask how? ISA ONLY keeps the driver at the speed at the road, that is the purpose of ISA and if you are going over that speed your breaking the law, it is very simple... even if the road is set to a stupid speed, you are still breaking the law if you go over that speed, you are liable to a penalty if caught. Exactly as you said set to a stupid speed limit is why people ignore them and I do not blame them. Laws are there to be broken and people would see certain laws like this and ignore them when there is hardly any say over them and imo should never be set by local councils. People now see it as parking fines which now do not even seem as dramatic as they used to, due to the cash cow nature of them. Many insurers no longer give heavy penalties for speeding offences and it doesn't surprise me, road safety imo is a joke up to now I cannot understand how barriers have been moved at key traffic lights and road layouts, to be cycle friendly or seen as clutter. Then more people at these locations get killed or injured; go figure!
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rml1969
Conductor
Adolescent & Youth Worker - OWR Driver
Posts: 69
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Post by rml1969 on Dec 17, 2019 2:25:54 GMT
capitalomnibus. You have literally expressed my thoughts, many thanks. Minority of car drivers obey 20 MPH and realistically I don't blame them and actually agree. To give a clear example from my prospective, I would follow 30 MPH on a single lane A road. Downham Way is 20 MPH which is a more than suitable road to run at 30 MPH. This ISA device will no doubt be spread across Europe and will not remain in London also be spread to buses across the UK. However hope is still around that we'll look back when these 20 zones are destroyed. (HOPEFULLY!)
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Post by snowman on Nov 9, 2022 11:10:21 GMT
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Post by ServerKing on Nov 9, 2022 12:21:34 GMT
I have to ask how? ISA ONLY keeps the driver at the speed at the road, that is the purpose of ISA and if you are going over that speed your breaking the law, it is very simple... even if the road is set to a stupid speed, you are still breaking the law if you go over that speed, you are liable to a penalty if caught. Exactly as you said set to a stupid speed limit is why people ignore them and I do not blame them. Laws are there to be broken and people would see certain laws like this and ignore them when there is hardly any say over them and imo should never be set by local councils. People now see it as parking fines which now do not even seem as dramatic as they used to, due to the cash cow nature of them. Many insurers no longer give heavy penalties for speeding offences and it doesn't surprise me, road safety imo is a joke up to now I cannot understand how barriers have been moved at key traffic lights and road layouts, to be cycle friendly or seen as clutter. Then more people at these locations get killed or injured; go figure!
The problem with systems like ISA is they can go wrong... my car has SLI (Speed Limit Indicator cameras near rear view mirror read road signs) which sometimes can be thrown in reading speed limit signs from nearby construction sites such as on motorways set at 10 mph, despite the main limit on the road perhaps being 50... so it might show a 10... luckily it's just a warning which can be ignored, but I see the danger if any system could mistakenly restrict a vehicle especially if the limit interpreted is incorrect I hope there's some sort of override or we could be seeing a lot of accidents. I don't know if ISA is being fitted to more elderly buses if they remain in service. I assume Streetdecks and Streetlites won't have to worry about breaking any limits
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Post by snowman on Nov 9, 2022 13:16:24 GMT
Exactly as you said set to a stupid speed limit is why people ignore them and I do not blame them. Laws are there to be broken and people would see certain laws like this and ignore them when there is hardly any say over them and imo should never be set by local councils. People now see it as parking fines which now do not even seem as dramatic as they used to, due to the cash cow nature of them. Many insurers no longer give heavy penalties for speeding offences and it doesn't surprise me, road safety imo is a joke up to now I cannot understand how barriers have been moved at key traffic lights and road layouts, to be cycle friendly or seen as clutter. Then more people at these locations get killed or injured; go figure!
The problem with systems like ISA is they can go wrong... my car has SLI (Speed Limit Indicator cameras near rear view mirror read road signs) which sometimes can be thrown in reading speed limit signs from nearby construction sites such as on motorways set at 10 mph, despite the main limit on the road perhaps being 50... so it might show a 10... luckily it's just a warning which can be ignored, but I see the danger if any system could mistakenly restrict a vehicle especially if the limit interpreted is incorrect I hope there's some sort of override or we could be seeing a lot of accidents. I don't know if ISA is being fitted to more elderly buses if they remain in service. I assume Streetdecks and Streetlites won't have to worry about breaking any limits From the link, this is what it says board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s18940/sshrp20221116-item11a-bus-safety-update.pdf6.1 (a) ISA Retrofit: Funding for 1,800 buses to be retrofitted with ISA was paused. The total number of buses in scope for retrofit is 3,000, the 1,200 buses with funding had hardware fitment completed during August 2022. It was estimated that if all 3,000 buses were retrofitted with ISA as originally planned, together with the new build buses, this would equate to around 50 per cent of the bus fleet. But it seems Volvo already fitted a version of it, (although wasn’t activated), so they are activating 5.2 Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA) technology has been a requirement for new buses since the launch of the Bus Safety Standard, but we have also worked to enable some existing Volvo buses in the fleet which have a similar version of ISA capability to be activated, and there is an active ISA retrofit programme. This means that the rate of ISA fitment in London’s bus fleet is much higher than the rest of the Bus Safety Standard measures, as at the end of July 2022 it was around 25 per cent of the fleet. 5.3 Acoustic Vehicle Alerting Systems (AVAS) have also been a requirement on new buses since the launch of the Bus Safety Standard but are only required on quiet- running buses so there are slightly fewer buses (672 as at end July 2022) with this technology, representing around seven and a half per cent of our fleet. 5.4 Camera Monitoring Systems (CMS) were only required in the Bus Safety Standard from 2021, however several operators were keen to introduce these earlier, which has resulted in 718 buses as at the end July 2022 being fitted with CMS, representing around eight per cent of the London fleet.
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Post by rj131 on Nov 9, 2022 18:18:01 GMT
Exactly as you said set to a stupid speed limit is why people ignore them and I do not blame them. Laws are there to be broken and people would see certain laws like this and ignore them when there is hardly any say over them and imo should never be set by local councils. People now see it as parking fines which now do not even seem as dramatic as they used to, due to the cash cow nature of them. Many insurers no longer give heavy penalties for speeding offences and it doesn't surprise me, road safety imo is a joke up to now I cannot understand how barriers have been moved at key traffic lights and road layouts, to be cycle friendly or seen as clutter. Then more people at these locations get killed or injured; go figure!
The problem with systems like ISA is they can go wrong... my car has SLI (Speed Limit Indicator cameras near rear view mirror read road signs) which sometimes can be thrown in reading speed limit signs from nearby construction sites such as on motorways set at 10 mph, despite the main limit on the road perhaps being 50... so it might show a 10... luckily it's just a warning which can be ignored, but I see the danger if any system could mistakenly restrict a vehicle especially if the limit interpreted is incorrect I hope there's some sort of override or we could be seeing a lot of accidents. I don't know if ISA is being fitted to more elderly buses if they remain in service. I assume Streetdecks and Streetlites won't have to worry about breaking any limits Here’s what I think should happen. When I worked as a delivery driver for a supermarket, the Mercedes sprinter vans had speed limiters that would restrict the van from going faster than what you set it to, unless you mash your foot down on the throttle. If you didn’t want to use it you didn’t have to, but it was recommended, it helped me as it then made my speed one less thing I had to heavily concentrate on. The same should be with the ISA on buses. The ISA does not exempt you from consequences if you speed and the responsibility for the safety of the bus is still entirely on the driver, so for gods sake just let it be up to the driver if they want to use it or not. Some drivers like it and some don’t so let them choose, whatever happened to letting adults make their own decisions instead of having things dictated to them by this nanny state that we live in.
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Post by ServerKing on Nov 9, 2022 19:31:25 GMT
The problem with systems like ISA is they can go wrong... my car has SLI (Speed Limit Indicator cameras near rear view mirror read road signs) which sometimes can be thrown in reading speed limit signs from nearby construction sites such as on motorways set at 10 mph, despite the main limit on the road perhaps being 50... so it might show a 10... luckily it's just a warning which can be ignored, but I see the danger if any system could mistakenly restrict a vehicle especially if the limit interpreted is incorrect I hope there's some sort of override or we could be seeing a lot of accidents. I don't know if ISA is being fitted to more elderly buses if they remain in service. I assume Streetdecks and Streetlites won't have to worry about breaking any limits Here’s what I think should happen. When I worked as a delivery driver for a supermarket, the Mercedes sprinter vans had speed limiters that would restrict the van from going faster than what you set it to, unless you mash your foot down on the throttle. If you didn’t want to use it you didn’t have to, but it was recommended, it helped me as it then made my speed one less thing I had to heavily concentrate on. The same should be with the ISA on buses. The ISA does not exempt you from consequences if you speed and the responsibility for the safety of the bus is still entirely on the driver, so for gods sake just let it be up to the driver if they want to use it or not. Some drivers like it and some don’t so let them choose, whatever happened to letting adults make their own decisions instead of having things dictated to them by this nanny state that we live in. The "Nanny State" wants to give an impression that it's in control, but these systems are in their infancy, I can’t see TfL spending much on this, it’s not going to improve the quality of the journey much, there's hardly NSL thrash like you get on buses in the Provinces and most are lucky to hit 30 with all the 20 zones. I've seen the SEe's on the 184 with the stickers doing slightly more than 20 down Alexandra Park Road, so I am sure the system will be overriden frequently. TfL's gonna struggle to encourage people out of comfortable cars if all they offer is cloth seats and a USB port
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Post by Frenzie on Nov 10, 2022 13:29:50 GMT
The problem with systems like ISA is they can go wrong... my car has SLI (Speed Limit Indicator cameras near rear view mirror read road signs) which sometimes can be thrown in reading speed limit signs from nearby construction sites such as on motorways set at 10 mph, despite the main limit on the road perhaps being 50... so it might show a 10... luckily it's just a warning which can be ignored, but I see the danger if any system could mistakenly restrict a vehicle especially if the limit interpreted is incorrect I hope there's some sort of override or we could be seeing a lot of accidents. I don't know if ISA is being fitted to more elderly buses if they remain in service. I assume Streetdecks and Streetlites won't have to worry about breaking any limits Here’s what I think should happen. When I worked as a delivery driver for a supermarket, the Mercedes sprinter vans had speed limiters that would restrict the van from going faster than what you set it to, unless you mash your foot down on the throttle. If you didn’t want to use it you didn’t have to, but it was recommended, it helped me as it then made my speed one less thing I had to heavily concentrate on. The same should be with the ISA on buses. The ISA does not exempt you from consequences if you speed and the responsibility for the safety of the bus is still entirely on the driver, so for gods sake just let it be up to the driver if they want to use it or not. Some drivers like it and some don’t so let them choose, whatever happened to letting adults make their own decisions instead of having things dictated to them by this nanny state that we live in. The systems on ADL buses go wrong so often. There were many occasions where it would pick up a side road on the run light between FW and Ealing on the A316 and A4 and all of a sudden the bus would lose power and slow to either 30 or 20 mph. The tracking on them is poor and it takes a while for it to recognise it’s in a new speed limit zone. It should be instant in my opinion like the VH isa which is pretty good. The other thing that is super annoying is buses aren’t even restricted to the limit. The BCEs only do 17 mph in a 20 and 27 mph in a 30.
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Post by M1104 on Nov 11, 2022 11:29:31 GMT
The problem with systems like ISA is they can go wrong... my car has SLI (Speed Limit Indicator cameras near rear view mirror read road signs) which sometimes can be thrown in reading speed limit signs from nearby construction sites such as on motorways set at 10 mph, despite the main limit on the road perhaps being 50... so it might show a 10... luckily it's just a warning which can be ignored, but I see the danger if any system could mistakenly restrict a vehicle especially if the limit interpreted is incorrect I hope there's some sort of override or we could be seeing a lot of accidents. I don't know if ISA is being fitted to more elderly buses if they remain in service. I assume Streetdecks and Streetlites won't have to worry about breaking any limits I'm told that bus engineers are the only ones that can turn the ISA system on or off.
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Post by salmon on Nov 21, 2022 11:32:05 GMT
Unfortunately the ISA isn’t very intelligent. The GPS they use for it is inaccurate and it takes far too long to update. Sometimes picks up lower speed limits from side roads and when going from a 20 to 30 the ISA takes 10+ seconds to update.
Worse part is the 10mph speed limit it picks up from the bus stations. You pull out from a bus station onto a 30mph road only able to do 8-9mph for 10+ seconds. Can be dangerous in some circumstances and makes you look like a right tit.
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Post by VPL630 on Nov 21, 2022 11:52:12 GMT
I'm so glad I don't drive buses fitted with ISA, seems like a right pain but keeps some office bods happy
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Post by M1104 on Nov 21, 2022 14:18:45 GMT
I'm so glad I don't drive buses fitted with ISA, seems like a right pain but keeps some office bods happy I remember once driving a PDL class Trident light along the A3 only to find out the bus could only do 40mph¹ on a 50 mph stretch. Although I was well disappointed it wasn't too bad for me as most of the roads I would be driving along are a maximum of 30mph anyway. I can only imagine what it must be like for today's drivers, especially night drivers, going along a wide clear empty road where the bus is limited to 20mph and worse still you're already running late. ¹ - most PDLs maxed above 50mph with the 03 reg ones above 60mph
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Post by vjaska on Nov 21, 2022 15:28:23 GMT
I'm so glad I don't drive buses fitted with ISA, seems like a right pain but keeps some office bods happy I remember once driving a PDL class Trident light along the A3 only to find out the bus could only do 40mph¹ on a 50 mph stretch. Although I was well disappointed it wasn't too bad for me as most of the roads I would be driving along are a maximum of 30mph anyway. I can only imagine what it must be like for today's drivers, especially night drivers, going along a wide clear empty road where the bus is limited to 20mph and worse still you're already running late. ¹ - most PDLs maxed above 50mph with the 03 reg ones above 60mph Most of Quality Lines single deckers were limited to 35mph with the Solos being limited to 27mph and I’m sure a few of the routes had to traverse 40mph+ roads when running light
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