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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2019 9:19:47 GMT
Central London bus routes are , I think, busier on certain routes at weekends than during the PM peak.
It is the MF peak hour traffic which I think has fallen sharply. This is simply based on what I've observed. Not scientific.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2019 9:21:11 GMT
Central London bus routes are , I think, busier on certain routes at weekends than during the PM peak. It is the MF peak hour traffic which I think has fallen sharply. This is simply based on what I've observed. Not scientific. More cuts are inevitable in 2020 in Central London. I hope some modest improvements in places like Croydon, Sutton, Heathrow, Hayes, Hounslow, Wembley.
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Post by snowman on Dec 24, 2019 9:58:14 GMT
Central London bus routes are , I think, busier on certain routes at weekends than during the PM peak. It is the MF peak hour traffic which I think has fallen sharply. This is simply based on what I've observed. Not scientific. There have been a fair number of weekend tube closures where local bus is only alternative which may have affected this. But agree, commuting by bus is now seen as too slow by many, and working 9-5 for 5 days a week is being replaced by agile working and hot desking
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Post by vjaska on Dec 24, 2019 10:57:38 GMT
Wrightbus was a sad example of mismanagement of funds, poor engine choices, and not listening to your customers and adapting. Hopefully the new company will add better models, or at least drop the gutless 4 cylinder engine. Even Arriva London got rid of HW100 as soon as they could. Such a shame. From a passenger viewpoint, nothing lures me onto a bus in London any more. Facety passengers, cramped space, dirty deats that are usually uncomfortable, low speeds or traffic, no creature comforts like outside the M25. Surprised Wifi seems to have bypassed London completely. As nice as USB charging ports on the shiny 192 buses are, it would be great if I could get a seat on said bus in the first place where there is demand, nothing is done. When there clearly is less demand, send less buses out in the day. A theme park like Alton Towers would not survive if the place was near empty, but they still had everything running and just hoped for the best the faceless individuals running TfL have forgotten their customer base, unlike Reading Buses who make such an effort. That's a great comparison, Alton Towers just blindly continuing to run all their rides despite fewer and fewer people coming through the turnstiles. It's hard to see anything other than a further decline in bus usage as TfL have done nothing to stem their losses by making bus travel more attractive and any fares increase will only drive more passengers away, in any case gimmicks like free travel for kids and open boarding has just lead to a culture of free travel and the half hearted change to boarding arrangements on LT's really is too little too late. TfL should send a delegation down to Reading to see how it should be done. It's not a great comparison - Alton Towers is not a public transport provider that people rely on to get around and I believe fairgrounds & theme parks do at times run rides even with no one on board. As I said, cutting routes back does not solve the issue and generally only worsens decline even more as people see their 15 min frequency drop to 20 and decide other alternatives are better. Oh and look, the annual let's knock free travel for kids debate is back whilst three door boarding is the only niche that the otherwise pointless LT's have - would like to know if any proper research has been done by TfL into exactly how much is lost on LT routes only.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 24, 2019 11:51:45 GMT
Wrightbus was a sad example of mismanagement of funds, poor engine choices, and not listening to your customers and adapting. Hopefully the new company will add better models, or at least drop the gutless 4 cylinder engine. Even Arriva London got rid of HW100 as soon as they could. Such a shame. From a passenger viewpoint, nothing lures me onto a bus in London any more. Facety passengers, cramped space, dirty deats that are usually uncomfortable, low speeds or traffic, no creature comforts like outside the M25. Surprised Wifi seems to have bypassed London completely. As nice as USB charging ports on the shiny 192 buses are, it would be great if I could get a seat on said bus in the first place where there is demand, nothing is done. When there clearly is less demand, send less buses out in the day. A theme park like Alton Towers would not survive if the place was near empty, but they still had everything running and just hoped for the best the faceless individuals running TfL have forgotten their customer base, unlike Reading Buses who make such an effort. That's a great comparison, Alton Towers just blindly continuing to run all their rides despite fewer and fewer people coming through the turnstiles. It's hard to see anything other than a further decline in bus usage as TfL have done nothing to stem their losses by making bus travel more attractive and any fares increase will only drive more passengers away, in any case gimmicks like free travel for kids and open boarding has just lead to a culture of free travel and the half hearted change to boarding arrangements on LT's really is too little too late. TfL should send a delegation down to Reading to see how it should be done. You know according to a recent report I read the 60+ pass actually costs more than the 11-15 one, so it makes sense to get rid of that first if you want to go down that route
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Post by greenboy on Dec 24, 2019 13:09:27 GMT
Central London bus routes are , I think, busier on certain routes at weekends than during the PM peak. It is the MF peak hour traffic which I think has fallen sharply. This is simply based on what I've observed. Not scientific. There have been a fair number of weekend tube closures where local bus is only alternative which may have affected this. But agree, commuting by bus is now seen as too slow by many, and working 9-5 for 5 days a week is being replaced by agile working and hot desking I can relate to that. I do some hot desking and use the tube, hire bike or uber, time is money and bus travel just takes too long. At weekends when my travel is more leisurely I may well use buses and of course the tube closures that you mentioned. I can only see more bus cuts in Central London next year and possibly some long standing routes going the same way as the 10 and 48.
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Post by snowman on Dec 24, 2019 15:14:05 GMT
That's a great comparison, Alton Towers just blindly continuing to run all their rides despite fewer and fewer people coming through the turnstiles. It's hard to see anything other than a further decline in bus usage as TfL have done nothing to stem their losses by making bus travel more attractive and any fares increase will only drive more passengers away, in any case gimmicks like free travel for kids and open boarding has just lead to a culture of free travel and the half hearted change to boarding arrangements on LT's really is too little too late. TfL should send a delegation down to Reading to see how it should be done. You know according to a recent report I read the 60+ pass actually costs more than the 11-15 one, so it makes sense to get rid of that first if you want to go down that route Think you have got this slightly wrong, the financial cost of concessions is on page 51 of the new Business Plan www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-business-plan-2019-24.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjP6dTKx87mAhXVEcAKHXxGA9AQFjABegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0l0ZDC2NeHN69i8kr9r3MNHowever it is huge amount, but so is the £50m buses are losing every month (£600,000,000 per year)
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Post by ServerKing on Dec 24, 2019 19:26:40 GMT
That is for 2020, but always intended to freeze fares until the next mayor election Having ploughed through the TfL Business Plan published recently, fairly obvious that whatever the published intentions, the 3 big financial holes (bus revenue, Crossrail cost overruns, fare freeze) are not sustainable. Just being plugged short term by deferring much needed capital investment and routine replacements/refurbishments. The recent fall in bus usage since October seems to have caught TfL out, the Board papers simply refer to it as unexpected, for unexplained reasons. But to me cutting through the business speak its blatantly obvious central London buses are going to be heavily cut (and Business plan says this). Yes they might have an aim to maintain overall mileage by expanding outer London, but don't need to think too hard to work out that an outer London bus can cover 2-3 times the distance than one crawling in Central London. So based on the business plan, I would expect not a lot of change until after mayor election, then a fairly hefty set of cuts in Central London through remainder of 2020 and into 2021. I am going to suggest that evening and night buses could be heavily cut (unless a higher night fare is introduced). The waffle about London being a 24 hour city is just fantasy (how many schools or doctors surgeries etc do you know that operate at night ?), quite a small part is open at night so why provide a comprehensive night network at great cost. So my prediction is bus fleet cut by 500 (by mid 2021) The "24 hour city" stuff is guff for tourism... London has been spooked by Brexit, and the only people out 24 hours are the homeless, sadly. Work patterns have changed, cloud computing and Agile Working (working from home), plus a good number of rail strikes have made people think twice about coming into London if they can help it, and most people know there's no point to get a bus in central London due to the traffic, roadworks, excess minicabs etc. Cuts, although not welcomed by enthusiasts are perfect business sense. I'm sure many have adjusted from the loss of the 48. I wouldn't sit on a bus from Walthamstow to London Bridge nowadays as everything is 20 or below. Buses are also base model in terms of comfort. Even the blinds are old fashioned. No wifi, crap branding in obscure areas if attempted, no nice seats. The 'mandem' all sit in brand new Audi Q3's and Merc A45S's so I doubt they are so intent on vandalising buses as much. People tolerate the Tube as it is ten times quicker, and that includes the walk. Taxi's are handy, but expensive. Expanding buses in outer London may be good, if they are wanted. I'd rather drive, depending on where I need to get to. From my Haringey base to get to a customer in, Barnet for instance, I wouldn't bother with the bus as it would take too long. (factor in bus connections, loooong driver changes at the garage etc.) I'd take a cab if I was not driving. Brochures, or better advertising would help (not just the telling people off ads about "Watch Your Speed - your Mum does" etc. It's a shame Leon Daniels is not around to give the Bus division some direction, so sadly, 2020 will be more of the same. Another handful of buses with new LED blinds with the Abellio Caetano's, but nothing really to write home about...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 21:37:52 GMT
Bus routes are the blood vessels of London and beyond. Buses carry more passengers than the tube. They link remote parts of outer London with local town centres, provide busy corridor services and provide night services 364 nights a year. I think we need another year of the bus with renewed and perhaps different energy (electric and hydrogen). It was nice to sample new direct links, such as Acton to Wembley and Ruislip to Heathrow. But many more were lost. I hope TfL can harness and react to changing travelling patterns. Provide more useful links and explore Express routes over different parts of London. All of this isn't possible without the bus firms and particularly the drivers. They deserve better pay and conditions. For all my travels using all the operators buses, I can't recall any incidents of really poor driving. In London they put up with a lot. I wish everyone involved in the bus industry and us mad people who love it,all the best for 2020.
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Post by redbus on Dec 31, 2019 22:30:28 GMT
Bus routes are the blood vessels of London and beyond. Buses carry more passengers than the tube. They link remote parts of outer London with local town centres, provide busy corridor services and provide night services 364 nights a year. I think we need another year of the bus with renewed and perhaps different energy (electric and hydrogen). It was nice to sample new direct links, such as Acton to Wembley and Ruislip to Heathrow. But many more were lost. I hope TfL can harness and react to changing travelling patterns. Provide more useful links and explore Express routes over different parts of London. All of this isn't possible without the bus firms and particularly the drivers. They deserve better pay and conditions. For all my travels using all the operators buses, I can't recall any incidents of really poor driving. In London they put up with a lot. I wish everyone involved in the bus industry and us mad people who love it,all the best for 2020. We certainly need another 'Year of the Bus' particularly to bring buses to the forefront and priority of the powers that be (that is you Mr Mayor in case you did not realise).
Buss journey times need to be reduced by speeding up buses, including more bus priority measures, and that will lead to more passengers, greater income and lower costs.
I think total bus journey time needs to be looked at, not just waiting times. There are far too many delays such as service regulation which mean journeys are just unnecessarily long which puts off passengers.
Bus drivers are woefully underpaid for the job they do, the problem is where to find the money to pay them what they deserve.
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Post by rif153 on Jan 1, 2020 11:43:44 GMT
That is for 2020, but always intended to freeze fares until the next mayor election Having ploughed through the TfL Business Plan published recently, fairly obvious that whatever the published intentions, the 3 big financial holes (bus revenue, Crossrail cost overruns, fare freeze) are not sustainable. Just being plugged short term by deferring much needed capital investment and routine replacements/refurbishments. The recent fall in bus usage since October seems to have caught TfL out, the Board papers simply refer to it as unexpected, for unexplained reasons. But to me cutting through the business speak its blatantly obvious central London buses are going to be heavily cut (and Business plan says this). Yes they might have an aim to maintain overall mileage by expanding outer London, but don't need to think too hard to work out that an outer London bus can cover 2-3 times the distance than one crawling in Central London. So based on the business plan, I would expect not a lot of change until after mayor election, then a fairly hefty set of cuts in Central London through remainder of 2020 and into 2021. I am going to suggest that evening and night buses could be heavily cut (unless a higher night fare is introduced). The waffle about London being a 24 hour city is just fantasy (how many schools or doctors surgeries etc do you know that operate at night ?), quite a small part is open at night so why provide a comprehensive night network at great cost. So my prediction is bus fleet cut by 500 (by mid 2021) The "24 hour city" stuff is guff for tourism... London has been spooked by Brexit, and the only people out 24 hours are the homeless, sadly. Work patterns have changed, cloud computing and Agile Working (working from home), plus a good number of rail strikes have made people think twice about coming into London if they can help it, and most people know there's no point to get a bus in central London due to the traffic, roadworks, excess minicabs etc. Cuts, although not welcomed by enthusiasts are perfect business sense. I'm sure many have adjusted from the loss of the 48. I wouldn't sit on a bus from Walthamstow to London Bridge nowadays as everything is 20 or below. Buses are also base model in terms of comfort. Even the blinds are old fashioned. No wifi, crap branding in obscure areas if attempted, no nice seats. The 'mandem' all sit in brand new Audi Q3's and Merc A45S's so I doubt they are so intent on vandalising buses as much. People tolerate the Tube as it is ten times quicker, and that includes the walk. Taxi's are handy, but expensive. Expanding buses in outer London may be good, if they are wanted. I'd rather drive, depending on where I need to get to. From my Haringey base to get to a customer in, Barnet for instance, I wouldn't bother with the bus as it would take too long. (factor in bus connections, loooong driver changes at the garage etc.) I'd take a cab if I was not driving. Brochures, or better advertising would help (not just the telling people off ads about "Watch Your Speed - your Mum does" etc. It's a shame Leon Daniels is not around to give the Bus division some direction, so sadly, 2020 will be more of the same. Another handful of buses with new LED blinds with the Abellio Caetano's, but nothing really to write home about... The 48 was especially bad as Lea Bridge Road is often at a standstill. I can't relate that well to the scenario as I only used the route about ten or so times during its existence, but if I were in a rush I know I'd take the Underground.
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Post by busaholic on Jan 1, 2020 12:39:17 GMT
The "24 hour city" stuff is guff for tourism... London has been spooked by Brexit, and the only people out 24 hours are the homeless, sadly. Work patterns have changed, cloud computing and Agile Working (working from home), plus a good number of rail strikes have made people think twice about coming into London if they can help it, and most people know there's no point to get a bus in central London due to the traffic, roadworks, excess minicabs etc. Cuts, although not welcomed by enthusiasts are perfect business sense. I'm sure many have adjusted from the loss of the 48. I wouldn't sit on a bus from Walthamstow to London Bridge nowadays as everything is 20 or below. Buses are also base model in terms of comfort. Even the blinds are old fashioned. No wifi, crap branding in obscure areas if attempted, no nice seats. The 'mandem' all sit in brand new Audi Q3's and Merc A45S's so I doubt they are so intent on vandalising buses as much. People tolerate the Tube as it is ten times quicker, and that includes the walk. Taxi's are handy, but expensive. Expanding buses in outer London may be good, if they are wanted. I'd rather drive, depending on where I need to get to. From my Haringey base to get to a customer in, Barnet for instance, I wouldn't bother with the bus as it would take too long. (factor in bus connections, loooong driver changes at the garage etc.) I'd take a cab if I was not driving. Brochures, or better advertising would help (not just the telling people off ads about "Watch Your Speed - your Mum does" etc. It's a shame Leon Daniels is not around to give the Bus division some direction, so sadly, 2020 will be more of the same. Another handful of buses with new LED blinds with the Abellio Caetano's, but nothing really to write home about... The 48 was especially bad as Lea Bridge Road is often at a standstill. I can't relate that well to the scenario as I only used the route about ten or so times during its existence, but if I were in a rush I know I'd take the Underground. The Underground is not a viable alternative for many who used the 48 bus though, even for those with the financial resources, which is why Crossrail 2 is as essential as Crossrail 1, but unlikely to materialise within the next fifteen years now imo without radical actions to cure the malaise now (partly self) inflicted on public transport .
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Post by rif153 on Jan 1, 2020 21:11:32 GMT
I can see the 6 being cutback to Trafalgar Square or Piccadilly Circus before the end of the year.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 2, 2020 10:09:09 GMT
I can see the 6 being cutback to Trafalgar Square or Piccadilly Circus before the end of the year. Same here. The stand used by the 3 is still there and the 9 is an exact cover from Hyde Park Corner.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 2, 2020 14:42:05 GMT
I can see the 6 being cutback to Trafalgar Square or Piccadilly Circus before the end of the year. Same here. The stand used by the 3 is still there and the 9 is an exact cover from Hyde Park Corner. It's quite sad because when the 6 change was made I initially had hope for the route, providing an alternative around this barrier that was Oxford Street. What it has since proved is that Oxford Street (and Regent Street for that matter) was not the barrier but was the destination and you won't be able to change that. You can always attempt to change people's route but you cannot change their destination.
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