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Post by greenboy on Feb 8, 2020 13:47:44 GMT
Absolutely atrocious this is a vital link to the Tube, Rail lines to the South East etc oh and Heathrow, so yeah I dam well hope TFL block this just like the removal of the Coach station to Marylebone. Well if it really was an atrocious idea it would have been binned already, how would it effect rail links to the south east oh and Heathrow? Not that there are any rail links from Victoria to Heathrow and the Marylebone coach station proposal was completely different. If people are not in favour of it then fair enough but bringing in nonsense like this and calling people snowflakes is ridiculous. |
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Post by redbus on Feb 8, 2020 22:27:02 GMT
Unlikely, I reckon there's a far greater chance the 2 will be cut back from Marylebone than the 13 from Victoria. No, it's the other way around. 2 doesn't terminate at Victoria, so no space is required in Victoria for it. Whereas, 13 does, so if this pedestrain thing actually goes to plan, space will be a problem for it. Also, keep in mind that 13 is a 10 mile long route, while 2 is 8 miles long. Yes, you may be right, but that assumes there will be no available other bus stand in the area.
Set against that where do you terminate the 13? Hyde Park Corner, possible I suppose, but suitable permanent stand space, as opposed to a place to cut buses short could be difficult to find. Marble Arch has no space, and if the 159 gets cut back to OxO, the 94 and 113 are looking for stand space there. Baker Street is now problematic since the removal of the one-way system, so alternative termination points are not that easy.
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mr24
Conductor
Posts: 66
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Post by mr24 on Feb 8, 2020 23:43:00 GMT
I must say I do not like the idea of the outside of Victoria station being turned into a functionless area inhabited entirely by smokers who create a practically uninhabitable area which looks nothing like the artist's impression - which quite frankly looks dreary, boring, bleak and functionless anyway.
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Post by rmz19 on Feb 9, 2020 1:53:47 GMT
Personally I'm all for building more Plazas in London with cafes, restaurants and shops for the public to bask in. However if it means affecting the local bus network negatively like it potentially would in this instance then I'm against it. Cutting bus routes just to facilitate the creation of this project would be ridiculous. The scheme could still go ahead and Terminus Place could still remain only for routes 13/16/38/52/390/507 to alight along there. However the main issue would be finding stand space for the 38/390/507. Perhaps Hudson's Place could be transformed into a terminus for all three routes to stand there.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 9, 2020 3:15:51 GMT
Personally I'm all for building more Plazas in London with cafes, restaurants and shops for the public to bask in. However if it means affecting the local bus network negatively like it potentially would in this instance then I'm against it. Cutting bus routes just to facilitate the creation of this project would be ridiculous. The scheme could still go ahead and Terminus Place could still remain only for routes 13/16/38/52/390/507 to alight along there. However the main issue would be finding stand space for the 38/390/507. Perhaps Hudson's Place could be transformed into a terminus for all three routes to stand there. The taxi drivers would no doubt be up in arms at the buses gaining Hudson Place - the 170 & 239 used to stand on Hudsons Place until they moved the 170 elsewhere. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 9, 2020 15:52:53 GMT
In my opinion these 'plans' are ill thought through, in which respect they have a lot in common with many schemes propagated by BIDs in general. I may well be alone on this forum in actually being a member (albeit reluctantly) of a Business Improvement District, an invention of Gordon Brown's that unfortunately has gained support from all political parties. It is, in effect, an extra tax on shops, restaurants, offices etc in given areas (Victoria in this case) and claims to be democratic in that the majority of businesses in the strictly demarcated area have voted for it in a secret ballot conducted by the local council. Once the majority have voted for it, according to the local council, ALL businesses with a rateable value above £x (it varies from area to area) have to pay it. That is how I, a dissenter to the idea, am forced to pay it as my premises are just above the rateable value cut-off. There is no get-out for five years, when another 'vote' takes place. As the various councils are promoters of the schemes, and issue demands with menaces at the very beginning of the financial year, they of course have a vested interest in their continuation. So, to this scheme in particular. The artist's impression is the usual banal, cliched, view of human life as it isn't lived in Central London in the 21st century. Not a person over the age of about 45 to be seen, certainly no=one using a stick let alone more disabled, almost all white European, no obvious tourists/visitors, hardly any children,no homeless, nobody struggling with bags of shopping or rushing to work/to get a train/get a bus. Instead, we have a series of zombie=like creatures like you get in films when 'extras' are asked to walk for the 45th time or pretend to be having a conversation. On the specifics, which I'll over-generously call them. Victoria Bus Station was traditionally the best and most important in London, and therefore, I'd suggest the country, though TfL and other powers-that-be have in recent years done their d*mnedest to downgrade it. With these illiterate plans, downgrading will lead to destruction of the whole edifice, without suitable replacement. A leaf has obviously been taken from the book of those who claim to represent Oxford/Regent/Bond Street shops and other businesses and produced similarly stale proposals to 'revitalise' their area by depriving thousands of people of easily reaching their objective by bus.As most people don't think going non-food shopping should be such a daunting experience, I'm sure a lot of them have deserted Oxford Street and gone elsewhere, maybe never to return. The fact is that Victoria is amongst the busiest of the railway stations, especially with daily commuters, and most will seek onward public transport options. The entrance to the Underground station is frequently closed for periods in the a.m. peak, usually because of Victoria Line overcrowding, so the numbers seeking buses rises accordingly. How convenient to have a bus station with buses ready and waiting on several different routes: similarly, watch those same buses disgorge loads of passengers in the p.m. peak and into the early evening, most of whom have trains to catch home. Why destroy this most useful object in order to create yet another soulless, windswept 'piazza' which'll have as much in common with Barcelona, say, as a shopping precinct in Basildon has, and will swiftly become litter-strewn and inhabitated by the dispossessed. You might gather from the above that I'm on the whole agin these proposals! Well said, could not have been said any better. The images of the so called clientele says it all.
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Post by John tuthill on Feb 9, 2020 16:58:52 GMT
In my opinion these 'plans' are ill thought through, in which respect they have a lot in common with many schemes propagated by BIDs in general. I may well be alone on this forum in actually being a member (albeit reluctantly) of a Business Improvement District, an invention of Gordon Brown's that unfortunately has gained support from all political parties. It is, in effect, an extra tax on shops, restaurants, offices etc in given areas (Victoria in this case) and claims to be democratic in that the majority of businesses in the strictly demarcated area have voted for it in a secret ballot conducted by the local council. Once the majority have voted for it, according to the local council, ALL businesses with a rateable value above £x (it varies from area to area) have to pay it. That is how I, a dissenter to the idea, am forced to pay it as my premises are just above the rateable value cut-off. There is no get-out for five years, when another 'vote' takes place. As the various councils are promoters of the schemes, and issue demands with menaces at the very beginning of the financial year, they of course have a vested interest in their continuation. So, to this scheme in particular. The artist's impression is the usual banal, cliched, view of human life as it isn't lived in Central London in the 21st century. Not a person over the age of about 45 to be seen, certainly no=one using a stick let alone more disabled, almost all white European, no obvious tourists/visitors, hardly any children,no homeless, nobody struggling with bags of shopping or rushing to work/to get a train/get a bus. Instead, we have a series of zombie=like creatures like you get in films when 'extras' are asked to walk for the 45th time or pretend to be having a conversation. On the specifics, which I'll over-generously call them. Victoria Bus Station was traditionally the best and most important in London, and therefore, I'd suggest the country, though TfL and other powers-that-be have in recent years done their d*mnedest to downgrade it. With these illiterate plans, downgrading will lead to destruction of the whole edifice, without suitable replacement. A leaf has obviously been taken from the book of those who claim to represent Oxford/Regent/Bond Street shops and other businesses and produced similarly stale proposals to 'revitalise' their area by depriving thousands of people of easily reaching their objective by bus.As most people don't think going non-food shopping should be such a daunting experience, I'm sure a lot of them have deserted Oxford Street and gone elsewhere, maybe never to return. The fact is that Victoria is amongst the busiest of the railway stations, especially with daily commuters, and most will seek onward public transport options. The entrance to the Underground station is frequently closed for periods in the a.m. peak, usually because of Victoria Line overcrowding, so the numbers seeking buses rises accordingly. How convenient to have a bus station with buses ready and waiting on several different routes: similarly, watch those same buses disgorge loads of passengers in the p.m. peak and into the early evening, most of whom have trains to catch home. Why destroy this most useful object in order to create yet another soulless, windswept 'piazza' which'll have as much in common with Barcelona, say, as a shopping precinct in Basildon has, and will swiftly become litter-strewn and inhabitated by the dispossessed. You might gather from the above that I'm on the whole agin these proposals! Brilliantly put, but will TFL take note? Answers on a pinhead please  |
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Post by greenboy on Feb 9, 2020 19:34:59 GMT
In my opinion these 'plans' are ill thought through, in which respect they have a lot in common with many schemes propagated by BIDs in general. I may well be alone on this forum in actually being a member (albeit reluctantly) of a Business Improvement District, an invention of Gordon Brown's that unfortunately has gained support from all political parties. It is, in effect, an extra tax on shops, restaurants, offices etc in given areas (Victoria in this case) and claims to be democratic in that the majority of businesses in the strictly demarcated area have voted for it in a secret ballot conducted by the local council. Once the majority have voted for it, according to the local council, ALL businesses with a rateable value above £x (it varies from area to area) have to pay it. That is how I, a dissenter to the idea, am forced to pay it as my premises are just above the rateable value cut-off. There is no get-out for five years, when another 'vote' takes place. As the various councils are promoters of the schemes, and issue demands with menaces at the very beginning of the financial year, they of course have a vested interest in their continuation. So, to this scheme in particular. The artist's impression is the usual banal, cliched, view of human life as it isn't lived in Central London in the 21st century. Not a person over the age of about 45 to be seen, certainly no=one using a stick let alone more disabled, almost all white European, no obvious tourists/visitors, hardly any children,no homeless, nobody struggling with bags of shopping or rushing to work/to get a train/get a bus. Instead, we have a series of zombie=like creatures like you get in films when 'extras' are asked to walk for the 45th time or pretend to be having a conversation. On the specifics, which I'll over-generously call them. Victoria Bus Station was traditionally the best and most important in London, and therefore, I'd suggest the country, though TfL and other powers-that-be have in recent years done their d*mnedest to downgrade it. With these illiterate plans, downgrading will lead to destruction of the whole edifice, without suitable replacement. A leaf has obviously been taken from the book of those who claim to represent Oxford/Regent/Bond Street shops and other businesses and produced similarly stale proposals to 'revitalise' their area by depriving thousands of people of easily reaching their objective by bus.As most people don't think going non-food shopping should be such a daunting experience, I'm sure a lot of them have deserted Oxford Street and gone elsewhere, maybe never to return. The fact is that Victoria is amongst the busiest of the railway stations, especially with daily commuters, and most will seek onward public transport options. The entrance to the Underground station is frequently closed for periods in the a.m. peak, usually because of Victoria Line overcrowding, so the numbers seeking buses rises accordingly. How convenient to have a bus station with buses ready and waiting on several different routes: similarly, watch those same buses disgorge loads of passengers in the p.m. peak and into the early evening, most of whom have trains to catch home. Why destroy this most useful object in order to create yet another soulless, windswept 'piazza' which'll have as much in common with Barcelona, say, as a shopping precinct in Basildon has, and will swiftly become litter-strewn and inhabitated by the dispossessed. You might gather from the above that I'm on the whole agin these proposals! Brilliantly put, but will TFL take note? Answers on a pinhead please I suspect TfL will listen to public opinion and the doomongers will be in the minority, there is a similar piazza area or whatever you want to call it outside King's Cross that has worked very well. |
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Post by John tuthill on Feb 9, 2020 19:40:29 GMT
Brilliantly put, but will TFL take note? Answers on a pinhead please I suspect TfL will listen to public opinion and the doomongers will be in the minority, there is a similar piazza area or whatever you want to call it outside King's Cross that has worked very well. Agreed, but the space in front of KX was never a bus stand, buses stand at the side in York Way. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 9, 2020 21:56:06 GMT
Brilliantly put, but will TFL take note? Answers on a pinhead please I suspect TfL will listen to public opinion and the doomongers will be in the minority, there is a similar piazza area or whatever you want to call it outside King's Cross that has worked very well. Kings Cross & Victoria are far from the same - no buses stood in the spot where the paved area is at Kings Cross unlike at Victoria. TfL only listen to public opinion if it suits their agenda or someone who has influence - there are many instances where they’ve ploughed through with poor ideas despite public opinion not being in favour. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 12, 2020 0:38:41 GMT
Brilliantly put, but will TFL take note? Answers on a pinhead please I suspect TfL will listen to public opinion and the doomongers will be in the minority, there is a similar piazza area or whatever you want to call it outside King's Cross that has worked very well. No TfL listens to no one apart from cyclists, the green party, or the mayor; everyone else is second place. Kings Cross is no way near the same as Victoria, if we go on your basis, why stop there, do the same to Vauxhall, North Greenwich, Walthamstow Central, Stratford, Liverpool St. No point of these bus stations when you can have more paving space and piazza's for vagabonds and snowflakes.
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Post by greenboy on Feb 12, 2020 5:57:10 GMT
I suspect TfL will listen to public opinion and the doomongers will be in the minority, there is a similar piazza area or whatever you want to call it outside King's Cross that has worked very well. No TfL listens to no one apart from cyclists, the green party, or the mayor; everyone else is second place. Kings Cross is no way near the same as Victoria, if we go on your basis, why stop there, do the same to Vauxhall, North Greenwich, Walthamstow Central, Stratford, Liverpool St. No point of these bus stations when you can have more paving space and piazza's for vagabonds and snowflakes.
The other bus stations you've mentioned are completely different, Victoria can barely even be called a bus station with just three routes picking up there nowadays, the 16 and 52 pick up point was moved to Wilton Road years ago and I can't see too much of a problem if the same happens with the 38,390 and 507. I think the bigger loss is routes like the 2,36 and 148 not returning to Terminus Place but everybody seems to have managed since they were removed during station rebuilding work. It's about providing a more pleasant environment for everybody and I really don't see what's not to like about this proposal. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 12, 2020 14:19:12 GMT
No TfL listens to no one apart from cyclists, the green party, or the mayor; everyone else is second place. Kings Cross is no way near the same as Victoria, if we go on your basis, why stop there, do the same to Vauxhall, North Greenwich, Walthamstow Central, Stratford, Liverpool St. No point of these bus stations when you can have more paving space and piazza's for vagabonds and snowflakes.
The other bus stations you've mentioned are completely different, Victoria can barely even be called a bus station with just three routes picking up there nowadays, the 16 and 52 pick up point was moved to Wilton Road years ago and I can't see too much of a problem if the same happens with the 38,390 and 507. I think the bigger loss is routes like the 2,36 and 148 not returning to Terminus Place but everybody seems to have managed since they were removed during station rebuilding work. It's about providing a more pleasant environment for everybody and I really don't see what's not to like about this proposal. Have to say, I find it a tad ironic how in another topic, you say elude to the fact TfL is actively trying to discourage people from the network but yet your in favour of something that will worsen interchange between bus & the station like how it is currently is where buses are strewn everywhere across Victoria rather than meeting in one place which is the hallmark of an important interchange. I thought we should be encouraging people to use the bus more especially when we have an overcrowded tube & train network that will grind to a halt at some point yet this idea will not do anything for bus passengers who yet again have no voice and are shoved to the back. |
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Post by greenboy on Feb 12, 2020 14:43:05 GMT
The other bus stations you've mentioned are completely different, Victoria can barely even be called a bus station with just three routes picking up there nowadays, the 16 and 52 pick up point was moved to Wilton Road years ago and I can't see too much of a problem if the same happens with the 38,390 and 507. I think the bigger loss is routes like the 2,36 and 148 not returning to Terminus Place but everybody seems to have managed since they were removed during station rebuilding work. It's about providing a more pleasant environment for everybody and I really don't see what's not to like about this proposal. Have to say, I find it a tad ironic how in another topic, you say elude to the fact TfL is actively trying to discourage people from the network but yet your in favour of something that will worsen interchange between bus & the station like how it is currently is where buses are strewn everywhere across Victoria rather than meeting in one place which is the hallmark of an important interchange. I thought we should be encouraging people to use the bus more especially when we have an overcrowded tube & train network that will grind to a halt at some point yet this idea will not do anything for bus passengers who yet again have no voice and are shoved to the back. I don't see how this is anything more than a minor inconvenience at the very most to bus users, nobody seemed to bat an eyelid about the 16 and 52 stop being relocated. |
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Post by redbus on Feb 12, 2020 23:42:32 GMT
Have to say, I find it a tad ironic how in another topic, you say elude to the fact TfL is actively trying to discourage people from the network but yet your in favour of something that will worsen interchange between bus & the station like how it is currently is where buses are strewn everywhere across Victoria rather than meeting in one place which is the hallmark of an important interchange. I thought we should be encouraging people to use the bus more especially when we have an overcrowded tube & train network that will grind to a halt at some point yet this idea will not do anything for bus passengers who yet again have no voice and are shoved to the back. I don't see how this is anything more than a minor inconvenience at the very most to bus users, nobody seemed to bat an eyelid about the 16 and 52 stop being relocated. True, and no one seems to bat an eyelid when bus frequencies are reduced. Instead people vote with their feet and if they don't like the changes, they find alternatives. The right question to be asking about the 16 and 52 is was there a reduction in bus passengers as a result of the bus stops being re-located.
There is a certain convenience and benefit to having most of the bus routes stop / terminate outside the station. It becomes a question of importance, the convenience of bus passengers or a piazza. Piazza's are currently a higher priority as they are seen as improving the public realm, bus stations seemingly don't, so along with bus passengers have a very low priority. The piazza is a money making opportunity, but what will benefit Victoria station passengers the most is debateable.
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