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Post by wirewiper on Oct 27, 2023 17:01:29 GMT
First's Roundtree Way depot in Norwich is to be converted into an all-electric bus hub, ready for 70 electric Wrightbus vehicles which are due to arrive by March 2024. The transformation, which is being undertaken jointly with Norfolk County Council, is funded by a £14.7 million grant from the Department of Transport's ZEBRA fund (Zero Emission Bus Regional Areas) and a £22.5 million investment from First Bus. www.route-one.net/bus/norwich-roundtree-way-depot-to-become-major-electric-bus-hub/The first 20 Wright Streetdeck Electroliners have been registered and some are expected to enter service on Monday 30th October. There will eventually be 56 Streetdecks plus 14 single-deck GB Kite Electroliners. 36530 was registered in August and carries the mark BK23 LUP; 36531-49 carry BK73 *** marks. 36531-36549 (BK73 AEV/W/X/Y/Z, AFA/E/F/J/N/O/U/V/X/Y/Z, AGO/U/V)
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Post by greenboy on Nov 13, 2023 8:50:09 GMT
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Post by gwiwer on Nov 13, 2023 9:54:29 GMT
If full-and-standing buses are not at least breaking even then there is something fundamentally wrong with the business model. There is no reason for any operator to attempt justification for cuts when the result is turning away business. It isn't just a revenue-support thing because First operates a mostly commercial network. It is in part related to the imposition of 20mph speed limits which require either more buses and drivers to convey the same number of passengers or the same number of buses / drivers running fewer but slower trips and causing overloading. Notwithstanding that there is something fundamentally wrong when buses which run full cannot turn a profit. They are not even constrained by the English £2 fare cap in Wales.
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Post by joefrombow on Nov 13, 2023 12:27:37 GMT
If full-and-standing buses are not at least breaking even then there is something fundamentally wrong with the business model. There is no reason for any operator to attempt justification for cuts when the result is turning away business. It isn't just a revenue-support thing because First operates a mostly commercial network. It is in part related to the imposition of 20mph speed limits which require either more buses and drivers to convey the same number of passengers or the same number of buses / drivers running fewer but slower trips and causing overloading. Notwithstanding that there is something fundamentally wrong when buses which run full cannot turn a profit. They are not even constrained by the English £2 fare cap in Wales. Most transport outside of Cities and by Cities I mean real ones like Leeds or Cardiff ( not Colchester or Chelmsford 🙄 where buses stop at 23:00 if your lucky ) are ridiculously shocking no buses start until after 06:00 where most factories or warehouses have shifts that start at 06:00 and if you have to work a Sunday or a evening after 19:00 good luck and all the best . It's simply not good enough in 2024 basically that we have to put up with this , I think all major towns/cities need the councils or local governments to start up some sort of TPE or TfL type system with funded journeys but a lot more funding needs to be given plus need to look at alternatives like ride sharing viavan /uberpool and also making E-scooters legal but having training etc and some kind of regulations on making them and more rent bike schemes, especially as over the next 10 years we are going to be trying to achieve net zero , but it's simply impossible in a lot of areas to not own a vehicle or have to rely on one of some sort due to the simply poor public transport , It really is shocking ! And we really don't realise how lucky we have it in London we wait 15 minutes for a bus and are fuming and livid in the sticks you miss a bus might have to wait hour or even two hours it's crazy .
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Post by imarkeh on Nov 22, 2023 23:22:49 GMT
If full-and-standing buses are not at least breaking even then there is something fundamentally wrong with the business model. There is no reason for any operator to attempt justification for cuts when the result is turning away business. It isn't just a revenue-support thing because First operates a mostly commercial network. It is in part related to the imposition of 20mph speed limits which require either more buses and drivers to convey the same number of passengers or the same number of buses / drivers running fewer but slower trips and causing overloading. Notwithstanding that there is something fundamentally wrong when buses which run full cannot turn a profit. They are not even constrained by the English £2 fare cap in Wales. The issue is that because of the new management structure, Bristol and WoE want all of the good Cymru buses and so this reduction in services goes a long way towards helping the buses get shifted out to the other divisions. Combine that with Cymru staff who are incompetent (who still have the X2 in Cardiff registered to go the wrong way up a one way street and refuse to reregister it. Their open data still links to multiple stops in Swansea which have the title 'not in use' or stops which have been removed with redevelopment a few years ago. Commercial staff there have all the gear but no idea. Their management were basically frothing at the idea that some buses were running at capacity and people being left behind because 'that means they are making money'. It's completely barmy. In other news, all of the Bridgend services (bar the 68/69) are up for tender with Bridgend Council or Vale of Glamorgan Council with contracts due to start on the 1st April 2024 so clearly they are about to close Bridgend depot as well as all of the cuts elsewhere
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 5, 2024 9:08:43 GMT
First is investing £750,000 in improvements to the Transdev depot in Corporation Street, Rochdale, which it will take over when the second tranche of Bee Network routes commences in March. Around 30 drivers and 12 engineers are to be recruited to supplement the staff who will be transferring over from Transdev. First's existing Oldham Depot will transfer to Stagecoach under the second tranche of Bee Network in March. www.route-one.net/news/first-bus-to-invest-750000-in-rochdale-depot/Meanwhile, Roger French ("Bus & Train User" and former CEO of Brighton & Hove Buses) is scathing about First's use of Artificial Intelligence to create bus timetables in York. busandtrainuser.com/2024/01/04/bus-times-driven-by-ai/
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Jan 6, 2024 22:01:02 GMT
In the Potteries the 72-reg StreetDecks have blue seats, similar to some refurbs in Leicester and Sheffield. Some refurbished Streetlites have red seats and orange lead rests, which looked similar to Go North East refurb Volvo B9TLs on route 56 (Newcastle-Sunderland). They have quite a few Enviro 200 MMCs too, some still in Olympia livery and others in blue livery, I believe cascaded from the Gosport Eclipse busway.
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Post by joefrombow on Jan 6, 2024 22:52:02 GMT
First is investing £750,000 in improvements to the Transdev depot in Corporation Street, Rochdale, which it will take over when the second tranche of Bee Network routes commences in March. Around 30 drivers and 12 engineers are to be recruited to supplement the staff who will be transferring over from Transdev. First's existing Oldham Depot will transfer to Stagecoach under the second tranche of Bee Network in March. www.route-one.net/news/first-bus-to-invest-750000-in-rochdale-depot/Meanwhile, Roger French ("Bus & Train User" and former CEO of Brighton & Hove Buses) is scathing about First's use of Artificial Intelligence to create bus timetables in York. busandtrainuser.com/2024/01/04/bus-times-driven-by-ai/I see his point but would a "Every 15-20 Minutes" on the timetable not suffice ? Although the timetable isn't clockface it's a realistic timetable of what can be achieved surely that's better than a clockface pattern that runs late all the time ?
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Post by gwiwer on Jan 6, 2024 23:35:46 GMT
First is investing £750,000 in improvements to the Transdev depot in Corporation Street, Rochdale, which it will take over when the second tranche of Bee Network routes commences in March. Around 30 drivers and 12 engineers are to be recruited to supplement the staff who will be transferring over from Transdev. First's existing Oldham Depot will transfer to Stagecoach under the second tranche of Bee Network in March. www.route-one.net/news/first-bus-to-invest-750000-in-rochdale-depot/Meanwhile, Roger French ("Bus & Train User" and former CEO of Brighton & Hove Buses) is scathing about First's use of Artificial Intelligence to create bus timetables in York. busandtrainuser.com/2024/01/04/bus-times-driven-by-ai/I see his point but would a "Every 15-20 Minutes" on the timetable not suffice ? Although the timetable isn't clockface it's a realistic timetable of what can be achieved surely that's better than a clockface pattern that runs late all the time ? I would prefer to know when my bus was due rather than possibly waiting 15-20 minutes in poor weather at a stop which may or may not have a shelter. The bus may be delayed, true, but more often than not it should arrive within a minute or two of the advertised time. For me a "turn up and go" headway where I don't need an actual timetable is not less than every 12 minutes.
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Post by joefrombow on Jan 8, 2024 14:16:18 GMT
I see his point but would a "Every 15-20 Minutes" on the timetable not suffice ? Although the timetable isn't clockface it's a realistic timetable of what can be achieved surely that's better than a clockface pattern that runs late all the time ? I would prefer to know when my bus was due rather than possibly waiting 15-20 minutes in poor weather at a stop which may or may not have a shelter. The bus may be delayed, true, but more often than not it should arrive within a minute or two of the advertised time. For me a "turn up and go" headway where I don't need an actual timetable is not less than every 12 minutes. That is true but I would imagine it costs money as you would need more resources to operate a 15 minute headway hence the odd timetable , although not ideal seems this is the future of bus travel usage is falling and routes being cut left right and centre when they need to be improving .
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Post by gwiwer on Jan 8, 2024 14:52:20 GMT
Falling patronage is a chicken-and-egg situation.
Bus patronage has been declining since the widespread affordability of private motoring in the 1950s. That decline has been very much sharper in recent years and discounting the effects of Covid on everything; it was in sharp decline before the pandemic.
Bus operators try to match supply and demand but when a typical journey other than locally within major town or cities carries single-digit loads then there comes a point where it is unsustainable. Many local authorities can no longer afford the subsidies expected of them 40 - 45 years ago at deregulation meaning if your route is not profitable it will not run at all.
Infrequent services are unattractive. They meet very few needs. A bus every hour might mean you arrive at work 45 minutes early, have to wait almost an hour after leaving school or cannot get to your doctor's appointment at all. Many inter-urban links are even less than that with some running only at two-hourly off-peak intervals with the bus tied up on school contracts during the potentially busier times.
City buses fare better because of larger populations but are subject to greater congestion leading to delays and unreliability. Both of those drive customers away. In a major city such as London almost all buses should be scheduled at not wider than 12-minute headways because that sends the message that you can turn up and go without an undue wait. Those headways can be even if loadings allow or closer at peak times if resources permit. But odd intervals do little to help as times cannot be readily memorised and you might wait 2 or 22 minutes; the latter is uninviting when there is an Uber around the corner for example.
There isn't a ready answer. If there was we would be witnessing a bus service renaissance. It is only when the alternatives are made significantly less attractive that anyone will consider using the bus now. Even at £2 a trip while it lasts.
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Post by greenboy on Jan 8, 2024 15:22:01 GMT
Falling patronage is a chicken-and-egg situation. Bus patronage has been declining since the widespread affordability of private motoring in the 1950s. That decline has been very much sharper in recent years and discounting the effects of Covid on everything; it was in sharp decline before the pandemic. Bus operators try to match supply and demand but when a typical journey other than locally within major town or cities carries single-digit loads then there comes a point where it is unsustainable. Many local authorities can no longer afford the subsidies expected of them 40 - 45 years ago at deregulation meaning if your route is not profitable it will not run at all. Infrequent services are unattractive. They meet very few needs. A bus every hour might mean you arrive at work 45 minutes early, have to wait almost an hour after leaving school or cannot get to your doctor's appointment at all. Many inter-urban links are even less than that with some running only at two-hourly off-peak intervals with the bus tied up on school contracts during the potentially busier times. City buses fare better because of larger populations but are subject to greater congestion leading to delays and unreliability. Both of those drive customers away. In a major city such as London almost all buses should be scheduled at not wider than 12-minute headways because that sends the message that you can turn up and go without an undue wait. Those headways can be even if loadings allow or closer at peak times if resources permit. But odd intervals do little to help as times cannot be readily memorised and you might wait 2 or 22 minutes; the latter is uninviting when there is an Uber around the corner for example. There isn't a ready answer. If there was we would be witnessing a bus service renaissance. It is only when the alternatives are made significantly less attractive that anyone will consider using the bus now. Even at £2 a trip while it lasts. Routes like the 146 and R8 and several others would just end up being withdrawn if this at least every 12 minutes criteria were to be applied. If the £2 bus fare isn't bringing people back in significant numbers then I struggle to see what else will.
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Post by gwiwer on Jan 9, 2024 15:47:27 GMT
I agree that there are fringe-area exceptions some of which serve very thinly populated areas that happen to fall within the TfL boundary. The R5 / R10 are other examples. Cudham doesn't ned a bus five times an hour each way and Cudham Lane would jam up if buses tried to pass. Some of these are former Country Area routes which straddle, or straddled, the boundary between "London" and the Counties.
I too cannot see what future there is of a £2 bus fare does not bring people back. Which, coming from a career public transport person, is not a good thing at all. What else can we do? The bus has been seen as the option of last resort by many people for far too long. Initiatives like leathercloth seating and USB charging have only had very localised and in most cases minimal impact upon loadings. They have also had minimal impacy upon the wider public perception of buses as slow, road-hogging granny-shifters.
Buses are of necessity slower than private cars. They have to be prepared to stop every few hundred metres. The fact that even an E200 can accommodate 30 -50 passengers and potentially remove 20 - 40 cars from the road, thereby making much more efficient use of road space, is ignored. I suspect the message just isn't getting through at all. There have been campaigns showing how much road space a decker-load can save but often they include a whole line of cars with the bus stuck in the queue. Shooting in the foot? The bus may be efficient but it still isn't getting there as quickly nor as conveniently as the car.
I now live in a town of 4500 people. We have an hourly link to the nearest major town and we are lucky that the operator offers this largely rural link commercially. Six of its nine miles are through unpopulated moors and farmland. A couple of evening trips are contracted and it doesn't run after 5pm Sundays but we can still get into town (and back out) at almost midnight on six days a week. I don't know of many who use it. Observation suggests an average load is 4 - 5. Of those most are seniors and students travelling on paid-for passes. I once offered the driver cash (before I had my own bus pass) and he was so surprised that he had to unlock his bag and find a bag to place it in. I didn't require change but he carried some in case.
There is no will nor much apparent need to use the bus any more. If people have a car and they can go when and where they want then they will not usually wait up to an hour for the bus. It would take a very significant political shift and some unpopular policies to start a modal shift using any form of coercion.
I fear the bus may become confined to main towns and cities before too much longer. Which is all wrong when we need to be far more respectful of finite fuel sources and share the crowded planet we live on with others much more willingly.
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 10, 2024 18:55:36 GMT
I agree that there are fringe-area exceptions some of which serve very thinly populated areas that happen to fall within the TfL boundary. The R5 / R10 are other examples. Cudham doesn't ned a bus five times an hour each way and Cudham Lane would jam up if buses tried to pass. Some of these are former Country Area routes which straddle, or straddled, the boundary between "London" and the Counties. I too cannot see what future there is of a £2 bus fare does not bring people back. Which, coming from a career public transport person, is not a good thing at all. What else can we do? The bus has been seen as the option of last resort by many people for far too long. Initiatives like leathercloth seating and USB charging have only had very localised and in most cases minimal impact upon loadings. They have also had minimal impacy upon the wider public perception of buses as slow, road-hogging granny-shifters. Buses are of necessity slower than private cars. They have to be prepared to stop every few hundred metres. The fact that even an E200 can accommodate 30 -50 passengers and potentially remove 20 - 40 cars from the road, thereby making much more efficient use of road space, is ignored. I suspect the message just isn't getting through at all. There have been campaigns showing how much road space a decker-load can save but often they include a whole line of cars with the bus stuck in the queue. Shooting in the foot? The bus may be efficient but it still isn't getting there as quickly nor as conveniently as the car. I now live in a town of 4500 people. We have an hourly link to the nearest major town and we are lucky that the operator offers this largely rural link commercially. Six of its nine miles are through unpopulated moors and farmland. A couple of evening trips are contracted and it doesn't run after 5pm Sundays but we can still get into town (and back out) at almost midnight on six days a week. I don't know of many who use it. Observation suggests an average load is 4 - 5. Of those most are seniors and students travelling on paid-for passes. I once offered the driver cash (before I had my own bus pass) and he was so surprised that he had to unlock his bag and find a bag to place it in. I didn't require change but he carried some in case. There is no will nor much apparent need to use the bus any more. If people have a car and they can go when and where they want then they will not usually wait up to an hour for the bus. It would take a very significant political shift and some unpopular policies to start a modal shift using any form of coercion. I fear the bus may become confined to main towns and cities before too much longer. Which is all wrong when we need to be far more respectful of finite fuel sources and share the crowded planet we live on with others much more willingly. You make some interesting points. Last year I reported on discussion around a "minimum service level". Switzerland has something along these lines, where a level of service is specified for communities of different sizes. Stability for the services that do still exist would be a start. tangytango.proboards.com/thread/12551/bus-minimum-service-level
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Post by gwiwer on Jan 10, 2024 22:52:57 GMT
Cornwall is very similar. The unitary Konsel Kernow / Cornwall Council supports a very large number of bus routes and a good many evening and Sunday trips on the otherwise very small commercial network but I wonder for how much longer.
Almost every community of 500 or more souls has some form of service. Almost all routes run at least six days a week and often into the evenings. Some very tiny places indeed have a bus service which many other counties would be pleased to have. Devon, next door, has done its level best but is fighting an uphill struggle having lost the income from now-unitary Plymouth and Torbay therefore having less of a kitty to spend on the rural network.
Somerset and Dorset are bus deserts away from a very small handful of commercial routes. Towns and villages there of several thousand people have no public transport option at all. They used to have until the funding was withdrawn. Western Dorset's entire rural network was withdrawn with a stroke of the accountant's pen leaving just a couple of slightly better-used routes and wide areas with nothing. Should I wish to do so I can hop on a bus to Sancreed (population 600) around seven times a day. Or to Zennor (population 203) twice a day, or hourly in summer. Those are contracted routes, of course, and come under the Transport for Cornwall banner but are provided on the basis of a notional minimum service requirement to prevent rural isolation and offer an alternative to the private car.
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