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Post by cl54 on Apr 25, 2021 19:20:51 GMT
I think the hybrid allocation is because the 180 may get a frequency reduction? The 180 had a frequency increase about three years ago to address chronic overcrowding. Can't see that being reversed. Now if we were to look at the 422 however... If it's not running to Lewisham the overcrowding might not be as bad. The 472 will get a reduction if the 180 diversion to North Greenwich happens. I agree about the 422. Too many buses between Blackheath Royal Standard and Woolwich. Plenty between BRS and North Greenwich.
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Post by lazy_eye_metaphor on Apr 26, 2021 11:44:38 GMT
The 180 had a frequency increase about three years ago to address chronic overcrowding. Can't see that being reversed. Now if we were to look at the 422 however... If it's not running to Lewisham the overcrowding might not be as bad. The 472 will get a reduction if the 180 diversion to North Greenwich happens. I agree about the 422. Too many buses between Blackheath Royal Standard and Woolwich. Plenty between BRS and North Greenwich. The overcrowding was most severe between Abbey Wood and Woolwich.
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Post by busman on Apr 26, 2021 11:56:49 GMT
The 180 had a frequency increase about three years ago to address chronic overcrowding. Can't see that being reversed. Now if we were to look at the 422 however... If it's not running to Lewisham the overcrowding might not be as bad. The 472 will get a reduction if the 180 diversion to North Greenwich happens. I agree about the 422. Too many buses between Blackheath Royal Standard and Woolwich. Plenty between BRS and North Greenwich. Whilst BRS to Woolwich direct is well served (53, 54 and 422), I wouldn’t reduce the frequency of the 422 based on that section alone. The frequency seems about right between Bexleyheath and Woolwich. The North Greenwich to BRS/Charlton section of the 422 has alternative connections to North Greenwich which are more direct. Since the cycle lanes were installed in East Greenwich, the indirect routing via Woolwich Road and Blackwall Lane has become a far less attractive than grabbing a 108, 335 or 486. I imagine that there are far fewer passengers heading to North Greenwich at the moment, but that might change once leisure facilities are fully open again.
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Post by danorak on Apr 26, 2021 15:59:54 GMT
If it's not running to Lewisham the overcrowding might not be as bad. The 472 will get a reduction if the 180 diversion to North Greenwich happens. I agree about the 422. Too many buses between Blackheath Royal Standard and Woolwich. Plenty between BRS and North Greenwich. Whilst BRS to Woolwich direct is well served (53, 54 and 422), I wouldn’t reduce the frequency of the 422 based on that section alone. The frequency seems about right between Bexleyheath and Woolwich. The North Greenwich to BRS/Charlton section of the 422 has alternative connections to North Greenwich which are more direct. Since the cycle lanes were installed in East Greenwich, the indirect routing via Woolwich Road and Blackwall Lane has become a far less attractive than grabbing a 108, 335 or 486. I imagine that there are far fewer passengers heading to North Greenwich at the moment, but that might change once leisure facilities are fully open again. The 422 was retained along Blackwall Lane because the 188 would be insufficient on its own to cope with peak crowds to and from North Greenwich. Equally the 335 was partly introduced to cope with peak loadings from BRS. Once again, much depends on post Covid demand. It certainly doesn't help that the 53, 54 and 422 arrive at BRS simultaneously. I suspect most locals would trade the current 422 over that section for a direct link to the shops on Bugsbys Way.
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Post by cl54 on Apr 26, 2021 17:31:43 GMT
Whilst BRS to Woolwich direct is well served (53, 54 and 422), I wouldn’t reduce the frequency of the 422 based on that section alone. The frequency seems about right between Bexleyheath and Woolwich. The North Greenwich to BRS/Charlton section of the 422 has alternative connections to North Greenwich which are more direct. Since the cycle lanes were installed in East Greenwich, the indirect routing via Woolwich Road and Blackwall Lane has become a far less attractive than grabbing a 108, 335 or 486. I imagine that there are far fewer passengers heading to North Greenwich at the moment, but that might change once leisure facilities are fully open again. The 422 was retained along Blackwall Lane because the 188 would be insufficient on its own to cope with peak crowds to and from North Greenwich. Equally the 335 was partly introduced to cope with peak loadings from BRS. Once again, much depends on post Covid demand. It certainly doesn't help that the 53, 54 and 422 arrive at BRS simultaneously. I suspect most locals would trade the current 422 over that section for a direct link to the shops on Bugsbys Way. Several years ago London Buses rejected the chance to extend the 202 to the retail park around Bugsbys Way. This included the developer paying for a stand near the shops.
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Post by Gellico on Apr 28, 2021 23:33:31 GMT
I think it was too do with a tight turn on Wood Vale. That what I was thinking too - the 63’s electrics should be 10.9m which could be problematic for one of the turns out of Melford Road whereas the existing hybrids are 10.2m & 10.3m which can make the turn given the 363’s EH’s do so & are 10.3m whilst the longer MHV’s seem ok too. Had TFL of insisted on electrics for both the 63 and N63 then it would of happened and Metrodeckers would of been ordered. TFl finances being as stretched as they are a cheaper split alloc bit was awarded.
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Post by Gellico on Apr 28, 2021 23:37:28 GMT
Whilst BRS to Woolwich direct is well served (53, 54 and 422), I wouldn’t reduce the frequency of the 422 based on that section alone. The frequency seems about right between Bexleyheath and Woolwich. The North Greenwich to BRS/Charlton section of the 422 has alternative connections to North Greenwich which are more direct. Since the cycle lanes were installed in East Greenwich, the indirect routing via Woolwich Road and Blackwall Lane has become a far less attractive than grabbing a 108, 335 or 486. I imagine that there are far fewer passengers heading to North Greenwich at the moment, but that might change once leisure facilities are fully open again. The 422 was retained along Blackwall Lane because the 188 would be insufficient on its own to cope with peak crowds to and from North Greenwich. Equally the 335 was partly introduced to cope with peak loadings from BRS. Once again, much depends on post Covid demand. It certainly doesn't help that the 53, 54 and 422 arrive at BRS simultaneously. I suspect most locals would trade the current 422 over that section for a direct link to the shops on Bugsbys Way. The 422 is too long. I live at the Belvedere end and the frequency is needed, alas the best solution would be to swap the 161 and 422's routing between Woolwich & N.G. Makes the 422 shorter + more reliable as well as getting rid of the excessive routing around the back of Woolwich Arsenal from the 161 as buses would just go left from Tesco's up to the Barracks. Would certainly save some buses whilst retaining full capacity on all sections, Woolwich is a straightforward interchange location and honestly barely anyone uses the 422 on trips that cross one side of Woolwich to the other, they always offload/pickup at Arsenal.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 29, 2021 7:03:46 GMT
That what I was thinking too - the 63’s electrics should be 10.9m which could be problematic for one of the turns out of Melford Road whereas the existing hybrids are 10.2m & 10.3m which can make the turn given the 363’s EH’s do so & are 10.3m whilst the longer MHV’s seem ok too. Had TFL of insisted on electrics for both the 63 and N63 then it would of happened and Metrodeckers would of been ordered. TFl finances being as stretched as they are a cheaper split alloc bit was awarded. I don't think it matters to TfL whether the N63 is operated by electric buses or hybrids.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 29, 2021 7:15:45 GMT
Had TFL of insisted on electrics for both the 63 and N63 then it would of happened and Metrodeckers would of been ordered. TFl finances being as stretched as they are a cheaper split alloc bit was awarded. I don't think it matters to TfL whether the N63 is operated by electric buses or hybrids. It very much does given it is a service they are specifying and paying for. And as @gellico mentions adjustments would be needed if TfL wanted electric buses on the N63, vehicle types and from a engineering management view (charging etc)
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Post by greenboy on Apr 29, 2021 7:42:12 GMT
I don't think it matters to TfL whether the N63 is operated by electric buses or hybrids. It very much does given it is a service they are specifying and paying for. And as @gellico mentions adjustments would be needed if TfL wanted electric buses on the N63, vehicle types and from a engineering management view (charging etc) If it mattered TfL wouldn't have accepted the Abellio bid and if Abellio had spare hybrids for the 63 I'm sure they would have been accepted........ just like Stagecoach planning to operate the 180 with a mix of electrics and hybrids.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 29, 2021 7:48:43 GMT
It very much does given it is a service they are specifying and paying for. And as @gellico mentions adjustments would be needed if TfL wanted electric buses on the N63, vehicle types and from a engineering management view (charging etc) If it mattered TfL wouldn't have accepted the Abellio bid and if Abellio had spare hybrids for the 63 I'm sure they would have been accepted........ just like Stagecoach planning to operate the 180 with a mix of electrics and hybrids. Operators can offer a number of options in a bid. Some at initial stage, some within further negotiation. Clearly the operation of N63 with hybrids was an acceptable solution to TfL, having been offered by Abellio - same goes for the 180
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2021 8:14:30 GMT
It very much does given it is a service they are specifying and paying for. And as @gellico mentions adjustments would be needed if TfL wanted electric buses on the N63, vehicle types and from a engineering management view (charging etc) If it mattered TfL wouldn't have accepted the Abellio bid and if Abellio had spare hybrids for the 63 I'm sure they would have been accepted........ just like Stagecoach planning to operate the 180 with a mix of electrics and hybrids. I thought the only reason the 180 was using both Hybrids and Electrics was because its PVR will be reduced when the route is cut back when the Elizabeth line opens. Wouldn't be very cost effective to order electrics only to become spare in a year or so. Yes they could be used elsewhere but not as simple as moving Hybrids.
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Post by busman on Apr 29, 2021 8:46:01 GMT
The 422 was retained along Blackwall Lane because the 188 would be insufficient on its own to cope with peak crowds to and from North Greenwich. Equally the 335 was partly introduced to cope with peak loadings from BRS. Once again, much depends on post Covid demand. It certainly doesn't help that the 53, 54 and 422 arrive at BRS simultaneously. I suspect most locals would trade the current 422 over that section for a direct link to the shops on Bugsbys Way. The 422 is too long. I live at the Belvedere end and the frequency is needed, alas the best solution would be to swap the 161 and 422's routing between Woolwich & N.G. Makes the 422 shorter + more reliable as well as getting rid of the excessive routing around the back of Woolwich Arsenal from the 161 as buses would just go left from Tesco's up to the Barracks. Would certainly save some buses whilst retaining full capacity on all sections, Woolwich is a straightforward interchange location and honestly barely anyone uses the 422 on trips that cross one side of Woolwich to the other, they always offload/pickup at Arsenal. I also live along the route at the Plumstead end, but disagree that the route is too long. Go Ahead and now Stagecoach seem to run the route well. We already have a high number of Woolwich terminators and losing a through service to Charlton and Blackheath just makes bus travel less attractive. Also swapping the 161 and 422 wouldn’t address any over-bussing between Woolwich to Royal Standard. Given North Greenwich passenger volume is also driven by leisure activities at the O2, I wouldn’t recommend any changes to the route structure of the 422 until we open up again and see what level of demand returns.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2021 9:01:43 GMT
If it mattered TfL wouldn't have accepted the Abellio bid and if Abellio had spare hybrids for the 63 I'm sure they would have been accepted........ just like Stagecoach planning to operate the 180 with a mix of electrics and hybrids. Operators can offer a number of options in a bid. Some at initial stage, some within further negotiation. Clearly the operation of N63 with hybrids was an acceptable solution to TfL, having been offered by Abellio - same goes for the 180 It could be in the future if Abellio were to win or retain more double decker electric bus routes they may convert the N63 to electric if possible. But I’d imagine it’s harder if you only have so many electrics to go around and they need charging for the day service. Logistically it’s probably better for TfL/Abellio right now but the situation might change done the line.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 29, 2021 9:24:23 GMT
Operators can offer a number of options in a bid. Some at initial stage, some within further negotiation. Clearly the operation of N63 with hybrids was an acceptable solution to TfL, having been offered by Abellio - same goes for the 180 It could be in the future if Abellio were to win or retain more double decker electric bus routes they may convert the N63 to electric if possible. But I’d imagine it’s harder if you only have so many electrics to go around and they need charging for the day service. Logistically it’s probably better for TfL/Abellio right now but the situation might change done the line. The buses ordered for the 63 are unsuitable for the N63, it's a bit like the situation with the 68 where LT's aren't suitable for the N68. Situations like this are likely to occur sometimes when the night service goes places that the daytime equivalent doesn't.
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