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Post by vjaska on Apr 13, 2024 14:11:42 GMT
Arriva Stevenage rejected the offer of 27 new electrics as part of the ZEBRA funding. I live there, the buses they have been using are awful. Why would they refuse? The ZEBRA schemes still require a significant level of operator investment, over and above that of standard diesel buses actually. I suspect the fact they were EV with the DfT grant to cover the cost differential was, at that time, the only way Arriva could justify any sort of new vehicles for Stevenage. Clearly since the funding award 2 years ago quite an bit has changed economically. I'm not sure Stevenage has had any new buses for at least a decade or closer to two? And clearly, it cannot even justify new diesel fleet. And the ZEBRA boat has sailed for now at least. Meanwhile Uno will have an almost entirely new and electrified fleet for their Hertfordshire services. The average age of Arriva's fleet in The Shires must be closer to 12 years, which isn't sustainable when an average vehicle lifespan is 16-18 years. Using public domain info I compiled a list of the recent ZEBRA awards outlining the operator investment, as well as DfT grant funding and other details: tangytango.proboards.com/post/804059It’s roughly about a decade - there was a little bit of investment with Pulsars & the Enviro 300’s (which I believe were split between Stevenage & Hemel originally) between 2011 & 2013. Still not as bad as Southend was prior to 2010 where the newest buses were almost 15 years old and the newest double deckers were over 20 years old (as the W XKX Tridents were moved from Southend to Luton replaced by a mix of older singles and doubles
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Post by vjaska on Apr 13, 2024 14:18:02 GMT
The ZEBRA schemes still require a significant level of operator investment, over and above that of standard diesel buses actually. I suspect the fact they were EV with the DfT grant to cover the cost differential was, at that time, the only way Arriva could justify any sort of new vehicles for Stevenage. Clearly since the funding award 2 years ago quite an bit has changed economically. I'm not sure Stevenage has had any new buses for at least a decade or closer to two? And clearly, it cannot even justify new diesel fleet. And the ZEBRA boat has sailed for now at least. Meanwhile Uno will have an almost entirely new and electrified fleet for their Hertfordshire services. The average age of Arriva's fleet in The Shires must be closer to 12 years, which isn't sustainable when an average vehicle lifespan is 16-18 years. Using public domain info I compiled a list of the recent ZEBRA awards outlining the operator investment, as well as DfT grant funding and other details: tangytango.proboards.com/post/804059No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service that’s where they might be where they end up 😂 The 65 reg are good motors even if they’re 9 years old - age isn’t important but how they’re looked after. Arriva’s provincial livery doesn’t help either - makes older buses look awful compared to the older inter urban livery they used to use
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Post by TB123 on Apr 13, 2024 14:23:34 GMT
The ZEBRA schemes still require a significant level of operator investment, over and above that of standard diesel buses actually. I suspect the fact they were EV with the DfT grant to cover the cost differential was, at that time, the only way Arriva could justify any sort of new vehicles for Stevenage. Clearly since the funding award 2 years ago quite an bit has changed economically. I'm not sure Stevenage has had any new buses for at least a decade or closer to two? And clearly, it cannot even justify new diesel fleet. And the ZEBRA boat has sailed for now at least. Meanwhile Uno will have an almost entirely new and electrified fleet for their Hertfordshire services. The average age of Arriva's fleet in The Shires must be closer to 12 years, which isn't sustainable when an average vehicle lifespan is 16-18 years. Using public domain info I compiled a list of the recent ZEBRA awards outlining the operator investment, as well as DfT grant funding and other details: tangytango.proboards.com/post/804059No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 And there lies the issue....the solution being 10-12 year old vehicles in an already old fleet! Clearly there's an issue here of how make operations like this sustainable enough to justify new vehicle investment to keep the age profile steady. The only operators in the home counties who've consistently managed this tend to be smaller ones like Falcon, Ensign, as the rest including other group operators are running increasingly older fleets that in recent times have only really seen any larger-scale investment through public sector funding (eg ZEBRA) And we wonder why franchising is in the frame...but without some sort of action tackle congestion, as well as consistent multi-year capital and revenue funding, it will likely mean little difference to the current model.
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Post by busoccultation on Apr 13, 2024 14:38:15 GMT
The ZEBRA schemes still require a significant level of operator investment, over and above that of standard diesel buses actually. I suspect the fact they were EV with the DfT grant to cover the cost differential was, at that time, the only way Arriva could justify any sort of new vehicles for Stevenage. Clearly since the funding award 2 years ago quite an bit has changed economically. I'm not sure Stevenage has had any new buses for at least a decade or closer to two? And clearly, it cannot even justify new diesel fleet. And the ZEBRA boat has sailed for now at least. Meanwhile Uno will have an almost entirely new and electrified fleet for their Hertfordshire services. The average age of Arriva's fleet in The Shires must be closer to 12 years, which isn't sustainable when an average vehicle lifespan is 16-18 years. Using public domain info I compiled a list of the recent ZEBRA awards outlining the operator investment, as well as DfT grant funding and other details: tangytango.proboards.com/post/804059No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 I think it's difficult to say what their cascade plans will be in a few years time. Remember Arriva is about to have new ownership under I Squared Capital who are likely to change the strategy for Arriva compared to under DB whether for the better or not, we don't know and then you got franchising in Merseyside and West Yorkshire that is due to take place n the next few years with both of those areas do have a significant presence by Arriva.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 13, 2024 14:44:11 GMT
No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 I think it's difficult to say what their cascade plans will be in a few years time. Remember Arriva is about to have new ownership under I Squared Capital who are likely to change the strategy for Arriva compared to under DB whether for the better or not, we don't know and then you got franchising in Merseyside and West Yorkshire that is due to take place n the next few years with both of those areas do have a significant presence by Arriva. And franchising is likely to affect more than just West Yorks and Merseyside in the coming years. The possibility of further ZEBRA rounds may further change the picture. It'll be most interesting to see what iSquared do. Will they keep the core structure as is, whether they will keep hold of the best performing bits and close/sell the lousier bits, or whether they will sell the better bits and run down the poorer bits, selling any associated property in the meantime.
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Post by yunus on Apr 13, 2024 15:21:17 GMT
The ZEBRA schemes still require a significant level of operator investment, over and above that of standard diesel buses actually. I suspect the fact they were EV with the DfT grant to cover the cost differential was, at that time, the only way Arriva could justify any sort of new vehicles for Stevenage. Clearly since the funding award 2 years ago quite an bit has changed economically. I'm not sure Stevenage has had any new buses for at least a decade or closer to two? And clearly, it cannot even justify new diesel fleet. And the ZEBRA boat has sailed for now at least. Meanwhile Uno will have an almost entirely new and electrified fleet for their Hertfordshire services. The average age of Arriva's fleet in The Shires must be closer to 12 years, which isn't sustainable when an average vehicle lifespan is 16-18 years. Using public domain info I compiled a list of the recent ZEBRA awards outlining the operator investment, as well as DfT grant funding and other details: tangytango.proboards.com/post/804059No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 Sorry I am late to the party but out of curiosity, is ZEBRA the same or similar scheme as the Green Bus Fund we had from the DFT a few years back?
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Post by wirewiper on Apr 13, 2024 15:42:09 GMT
No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 And there lies the issue....the solution being 10-12 year old vehicles in an already old fleet! Clearly there's an issue here of how make operations like this sustainable enough to justify new vehicle investment to keep the age profile steady. The only operators in the home counties who've consistently managed this tend to be smaller ones like Falcon, Ensign, as the rest including other group operators are running increasingly older fleets that in recent times have only really seen any larger-scale investment through public sector funding (eg ZEBRA) And we wonder why franchising is in the frame...but without some sort of action tackle congestion, as well as consistent multi-year capital and revenue funding, it will likely mean little difference to the current model. Could we be going back to the late 1940s or late 1960s and see large groups and smaller independents selling their operations to local or even national Government, as owners of last resort? I'm becoming more and more convinced that we will see the return of some of the Passenger Transport Executives and possibly another National Bus Company. But as you say - buses need action to tackle congestion, and buses need consistent capital and revenue funding over several years. Without those it makes no difference who owns the buses. Even down here in Devon, Stagecoach now cites traffic conditions, especially when major roadworks are taking place, as the biggest barrier to operating reliable services.
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 13, 2024 15:55:18 GMT
No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 Sorry I am late to the party but out of curiosity, is ZEBRA the same or similar scheme as the Green Bus Fund we had from the DFT a few years back? I think its Zero Emission Bus Regional Allocation... some sort of discount to go towards new electric buses. Not sure how electrics fare on high speed routes at a constant 50 to 60, or if there's sufficient charging facilities that could be installed, perhaps that's why Stevenage turned it down. Perhaps iSquared will rethink that now, who knows? Or they can make do with the likes of DW201 and co being thrashed on country lanes once they're done in London 8 ES's have been on the 307, hopefully Enfield are closing to solving the power issues. Hope Tottenham don't face this, with the 341 also changing to electrics like the 243
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Post by vjaska on Apr 13, 2024 16:02:26 GMT
No doubt I’m sure Arriva will find some slightly newer cast offs from somewhere to dump in their unloved provincial areas, in true Arriva fashion. Once the 13-reg and 65-reg T’s have finished their London service, the Shires is where they could end up 😂 And there lies the issue....the solution being 10-12 year old vehicles in an already old fleet! Clearly there's an issue here of how make operations like this sustainable enough to justify new vehicle investment to keep the age profile steady. The only operators in the home counties who've consistently managed this tend to be smaller ones like Falcon, Ensign, as the rest including other group operators are running increasingly older fleets that in recent times have only really seen any larger-scale investment through public sector funding (eg ZEBRA) And we wonder why franchising is in the frame...but without some sort of action tackle congestion, as well as consistent multi-year capital and revenue funding, it will likely mean little difference to the current model. It's only an issue if the 10-12 year old vehicles are not looked after - if they are, a passenger really isn't going to know the difference or care in all honesty. The 13 & 65 reg T's are perfectly acceptable for cascade - we aren't talking about the 60 or 61 reg here, the former being extremely weary now.
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Post by sp17 on Apr 13, 2024 17:38:16 GMT
Thankfully, the guys in Leicester ruined many of the networks in Aylesbury and High Wycombe, I won’t go into it too much but this is part of the reason it’s no longer under Leicester, meetings with councils etc did not go well. A lot of the changes they made fairly recently in those two towns, of tidying up the local networks did however seem to be something of a step in the right direction although I was shocked to see that so quickly into their introduction they are cutting them back. Is there any merit in the suggestion I heard that a shortage of serviceable vehicles contributed to some of these recently-announced service cuts? Arriva in the northern home counties is frankly, an embarrassment. In no way a reflection on the drivers and fitters who I don't doubt do a fantastic job every day but more the managed decline syndrome which is anything but helpful in an already difficult area to run buses. South of the river in similarly tricky territory there are a number of quality independent or group operators who provide services of a much better quality. The changes were rushed and not well thought out. It speaks volumes when the local cowboy operator has a more significant presence on the main Buckinghamshire corridors than such a large company as Arriva are. The new network looks tidy on paper but there are so inconsistencies it’s unreal, you can tell it was designed by someone with no local knowledge of Buckinghamshire which it was. You are correct on the maintenance side of things; another route is getting cancelled next month and all of the Aylesbury routes are having PVR decreases, I imagine it won’t be long until that garage shuts. Arriva as a whole lack direction from the leadership and they are miles behind the bigger groups in the provinces. The livery is awful, the fleet isn’t that bad if I’m being honest; the 2007 Pulsars are stellar motors and outperform many of the more modern deckers, however big changes are needed on every level. It can only get better from here. Back to Arriva London; they are doing well which I’m happy to see as they have always been a top operator.
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Post by SILENCED on Apr 13, 2024 17:50:01 GMT
Thankfully, the guys in Leicester ruined many of the networks in Aylesbury and High Wycombe, I won’t go into it too much but this is part of the reason it’s no longer under Leicester, meetings with councils etc did not go well. A lot of the changes they made fairly recently in those two towns, of tidying up the local networks did however seem to be something of a step in the right direction although I was shocked to see that so quickly into their introduction they are cutting them back. Is there any merit in the suggestion I heard that a shortage of serviceable vehicles contributed to some of these recently-announced service cuts? Arriva in the northern home counties is frankly, an embarrassment. In no way a reflection on the drivers and fitters who I don't doubt do a fantastic job every day but more the managed decline syndrome which is anything but helpful in an already difficult area to run buses. South of the river in similarly tricky territory there are a number of quality independent or group operators who provide services of a much better quality. Not sure if you are a member of railforums or not (not sure I would promote it!) , but there is a user called arrivamatt who seems to be engaging with people about the network ... in respect for what is left of the Shires home counties operations. He seems to want to make a difference, and has acknowledged passed failings, but whether or not he does remains to be seen
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Post by TB123 on Apr 14, 2024 10:12:36 GMT
A lot of the changes they made fairly recently in those two towns, of tidying up the local networks did however seem to be something of a step in the right direction although I was shocked to see that so quickly into their introduction they are cutting them back. Is there any merit in the suggestion I heard that a shortage of serviceable vehicles contributed to some of these recently-announced service cuts? Arriva in the northern home counties is frankly, an embarrassment. In no way a reflection on the drivers and fitters who I don't doubt do a fantastic job every day but more the managed decline syndrome which is anything but helpful in an already difficult area to run buses. South of the river in similarly tricky territory there are a number of quality independent or group operators who provide services of a much better quality. Not sure if you are a member of railforums or not (not sure I would promote it!) , but there is a user called arrivamatt who seems to be engaging with people about the network ... in respect for what is left of the Shires home counties operations. He seems to want to make a difference, and has acknowledged passed failings, but whether or not he does remains to be seen I am indeed, and I've noticed his posts - and his effort to sort things out and to engage via forums is to be commended, but sadly the rot has long set in and it remains that their offering is pretty poor.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 14, 2024 10:14:29 GMT
A lot of the changes they made fairly recently in those two towns, of tidying up the local networks did however seem to be something of a step in the right direction although I was shocked to see that so quickly into their introduction they are cutting them back. Is there any merit in the suggestion I heard that a shortage of serviceable vehicles contributed to some of these recently-announced service cuts? Arriva in the northern home counties is frankly, an embarrassment. In no way a reflection on the drivers and fitters who I don't doubt do a fantastic job every day but more the managed decline syndrome which is anything but helpful in an already difficult area to run buses. South of the river in similarly tricky territory there are a number of quality independent or group operators who provide services of a much better quality. The changes were rushed and not well thought out. It speaks volumes when the local cowboy operator has a more significant presence on the main Buckinghamshire corridors than such a large company as Arriva are. The new network looks tidy on paper but there are so inconsistencies it’s unreal, you can tell it was designed by someone with no local knowledge of Buckinghamshire which it was. You are correct on the maintenance side of things; another route is getting cancelled next month and all of the Aylesbury routes are having PVR decreases, I imagine it won’t be long until that garage shuts. Arriva as a whole lack direction from the leadership and they are miles behind the bigger groups in the provinces. The livery is awful, the fleet isn’t that bad if I’m being honest; the 2007 Pulsars are stellar motors and outperform many of the more modern deckers, however big changes are needed on every level. It can only get better from here. Back to Arriva London; they are doing well which I’m happy to see as they have always been a top operator. I see, what are the inconsistencies with the new network? I don't have much local knowledge but I know from some in the area it appeared to have some good points around the simplification and some extra frequencies though that has obviously gone now. As you say, it's telling that Redline are now bigger than Arriva in that area. They've come along and had them for lunch.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 14, 2024 10:16:55 GMT
And there lies the issue....the solution being 10-12 year old vehicles in an already old fleet! Clearly there's an issue here of how make operations like this sustainable enough to justify new vehicle investment to keep the age profile steady. The only operators in the home counties who've consistently managed this tend to be smaller ones like Falcon, Ensign, as the rest including other group operators are running increasingly older fleets that in recent times have only really seen any larger-scale investment through public sector funding (eg ZEBRA) And we wonder why franchising is in the frame...but without some sort of action tackle congestion, as well as consistent multi-year capital and revenue funding, it will likely mean little difference to the current model. It's only an issue if the 10-12 year old vehicles are not looked after - if they are, a passenger really isn't going to know the difference or care in all honesty. The 13 & 65 reg T's are perfectly acceptable for cascade - we aren't talking about the 60 or 61 reg here, the former being extremely weary now. It is still an issue because you need - for maintenance, depreciation and else purposes - a steady age profile. The lifespan of a bus is roughly 16-18 years and ideally you'd want the average fleet age to be around half that number with a steady inflow of new/newer vehicles to keep the whole thing steady. It isn't about whether the vehicles are or aren't fit for purpose - as you say if looked after they will be - it's about running a sustainable operation. And there's a problem if they aren't able to justify running a fleet with a more sustainable average age held there by consistent fleet investment.
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Post by sp17 on Apr 14, 2024 11:21:01 GMT
It's only an issue if the 10-12 year old vehicles are not looked after - if they are, a passenger really isn't going to know the difference or care in all honesty. The 13 & 65 reg T's are perfectly acceptable for cascade - we aren't talking about the 60 or 61 reg here, the former being extremely weary now. It is still an issue because you need - for maintenance, depreciation and else purposes - a steady age profile. The lifespan of a bus is roughly 16-18 years and ideally you'd want the average fleet age to be around half that number with a steady inflow of new/newer vehicles to keep the whole thing steady. It isn't about whether the vehicles are or aren't fit for purpose - as you say if looked after they will be - it's about running a sustainable operation. And there's a problem if they aren't able to justify running a fleet with a more sustainable average age held there by consistent fleet investment. Should probably add that Arriva outside London have a 20 year lifespan expectancy for buses. Only non commercially viable buses are withdrawn.
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