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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 25, 2020 15:51:41 GMT
Probably a bit bored but I was thinking about what was probably the biggest consultation. I always recall and from what I've read that there were changes to what was initially proposed. Here iv compiled a list of what belive the initial consultation was.
50 Withdrawn between Swan/Sugar Loaf and Old Coulsdon
54 Withdrawn between Elmers End and West Croydon
60 Slid to run Streatham Common to Old Coulsdon. Replacing the 50 and maintaining a Purley to Mayday link lost by the 109
109 Withdrawn between Purley and Croydon and shorts introduced between Croydon and Brixton.
130 Withdrawn. Replaced by T31
166 Diverted to Caterham on the Hill.
194 Diverted via Shirley way replacing the 166
353 Withdrawn Addington Village to Croydon and diverted to Forestdale
354 Withdrawn. Replaced by T33 and 246 in Hayes
356 Withdrawn. Replaced by the 464 AV to Tatsfield
400 Withdrawn. Replaced by the 166
412 Extended to Chipstead Valley
T31/T32 new routes
I think that is everything. As we know it change to 166 Diverted and re numbered 466, 498 becoming the 166 from West Croydon to Chipstead Valley and 1 journey to Epsom with the 412 change cancelled, the T31 to Forestdale to give a better service and a 20 mins service maintained on the 130.
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Post by danorak on Mar 25, 2020 16:00:21 GMT
There was also a plan to reroute the 314 via Shirley Church Road that had to be abandoned due to residents and council opposition. At one point I downloaded an almost unreadable PDF from an FOI request that contained a summary of the responses but I have no idea what I did with it.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 25, 2020 16:08:49 GMT
Thanks. I didn't know about the 314 plan.
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Post by redexpress on Mar 25, 2020 20:26:21 GMT
Probably a bit bored but I was thinking about what was probably the biggest consultation. I always recall and from what I've read that there were changes to what was initially proposed. Here iv compiled a list of what belive the initial consultation was. 50 Withdrawn between Swan/Sugar Loaf and Old Coulsdon 54 Withdrawn between Elmers End and West Croydon 60 Slid to run Streatham Common to Old Coulsdon. Replacing the 50 and maintaining a Purley to Mayday link lost by the 109 109 Withdrawn between Purley and Croydon and shorts introduced between Croydon and Brixton. 130 Withdrawn. Replaced by T31 166 Diverted to Caterham on the Hill. 194 Diverted via Shirley way replacing the 166 353 Withdrawn Addington Village to Croydon and diverted to Forestdale 354 Withdrawn. Replaced by T33 and 246 in Hayes 356 Withdrawn. Replaced by the 464 AV to Tatsfield 400 Withdrawn. Replaced by the 166 412 Extended to Chipstead Valley T31/T32 new routes I think that is everything. As we know it change to 166 Diverted and re numbered 466, 498 becoming the 166 from West Croydon to Chipstead Valley and 1 journey to Epsom with the 412 change cancelled, the T31 to Forestdale to give a better service and a 20 mins service maintained on the 130. I think the 410 must have been part of the initial consultation too. It was introduced to replace the western end of the 400 and the Norwood Junction end of the 412 (presumably it was felt 412 needed to be cut back to Croydon to compensate for the extension to Chipstead Valley, even if the latter change never happened).
Many of these changes were implemented in 1998, but of course with the introduction of Tramlink slipping to 2000 there was a second round of changes when the trams started running. IIRC there was also a plan to cut the 157 back to Norwood Junction with the 197 extended to the Palace (197 only ran Norwood Jct - Croydon back then), but I'm not sure whether that was part of the 1998 scheme or the 2000 one.
One snippet I remember is that T31 and T32 were initially numbered 457 and 467, at least internally for tendering purposes.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 25, 2020 20:40:44 GMT
Thanks again for the info. Interesting about the 4xx numbers for the T routes and I do recall the 157 and 197. Not a bad idea as it would have given a Crystal Palace link to Croydon Town centre rather then just West Croydon. Has gained that since the 410 extension.
2 of the changes had to wait for Tramlink to open. The 54 and 353 as there were no alternate routes.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 25, 2020 22:07:54 GMT
The 130 continuation, with single deckers, was very much a last minute reprieve because of public protest from some New Addington residents who wanted to retain a direct service to Croydon. My recollection is that it was on a 15 minute frequency, though, such a comedown from what it had been!
Other than the 130, the 54 was probably the most contentious: many thought (me included) that it should have been kept to Croydon, not least because there were considerable numbers of longer distance passengers during the peak.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 25, 2020 23:22:39 GMT
As it turned out tfl should have just extended the 466 to New Addington and axed the 130 as the 466 was and is already going to Addington Village. Or diverted the 64 in 2000 to serve more of the area to maintain a Croydon link.
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Post by danorak on Mar 26, 2020 9:04:13 GMT
The 130 continuation, with single deckers, was very much a last minute reprieve because of public protest from some New Addington residents who wanted to retain a direct service to Croydon. My recollection is that it was on a 15 minute frequency, though, such a comedown from what it had been! Other than the 130, the 54 was probably the most contentious: many thought (me included) that it should have been kept to Croydon, not least because there were considerable numbers of longer distance passengers during the peak. I remember Stagecoach having notices about the plan on their buses encouraging people to respond in favour of keeping the 54 unchanged. The 'interchange' at Elmers End was a shambles for many years after that and frankly is still poor. It was one of the reasons I stopped visiting Croydon. |
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Post by greenboy on Mar 26, 2020 9:36:52 GMT
The 130 continuation, with single deckers, was very much a last minute reprieve because of public protest from some New Addington residents who wanted to retain a direct service to Croydon. My recollection is that it was on a 15 minute frequency, though, such a comedown from what it had been! Other than the 130, the 54 was probably the most contentious: many thought (me included) that it should have been kept to Croydon, not least because there were considerable numbers of longer distance passengers during the peak. I remember Stagecoach having notices about the plan on their buses encouraging people to respond in favour of keeping the 54 unchanged. The 'interchange' at Elmers End was a shambles for many years after that and frankly is still poor. It was one of the reasons I stopped visiting Croydon. The 54 change has been awful from the outset, at one point buses were doing a long out of service run via Anerley just to turn around. Then they were setting down outside Tesco and going back to the green to stand then back to Tesco again to pick up for the return journey. Even now although an interchange of sorts has belatedly been installed there is still a footbridge to negotiate to get to and from the tram or a long walk round for a step free connection. Loadings on the 54 soon dwindled as people found other ways of getting to Croydon, the 75 perhaps, just as usage of the 353 declined markedly when it was removed from Croydon. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 26, 2020 11:08:43 GMT
Cutting the 353 pretty much took away the initial purpose of the 353 to link Orpington with Croydon. Alot of demand on the 353 come from schools.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 27, 2020 19:00:01 GMT
I didn't realise till I read a list of routes in Croydon today that the 356 ran via Shirley and West Wickham. I always assumed it had gone more via the 353 and 354 via Addington then over the 464. What was the routeing (via the 119) to West Wickham and then where?
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Post by redexpress on Mar 27, 2020 20:50:50 GMT
I didn't realise till I read a list of routes in Croydon today that the 356 ran via Shirley and West Wickham. I always assumed it had gone more via the 353 and 354 via Addington then over the 464. What was the routeing (via the 119) to West Wickham and then where? I have a 1994 map which shows the route following the 119 to Hayes Lane, then 146 to Keston, 320 to Biggin Hill and current 464 to Tatsfield. But the 1996 map shows that it had changed to take a more direct route via Glebe Way, Croydon Road and West Common Road to Keston, thus missing out Hayes.
(In case anyone's confused by all this, we're talking about the previous 356 - a commercial route created by Metrobus - not the current 356!)
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 27, 2020 21:15:15 GMT
Yes sorry should have made it clear it was the original 356. Also there was a 354 between Croydon and Bromley before the number was reused for the current 354.
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Post by route53 on Mar 28, 2020 2:16:59 GMT
The changes to the 54 is still very controversial even after twenty years, even Tram enthusiasts were against the cutback to Elmers End, all it did was overload the 75 which on the Lewisham-Penge section is rather circuitous, unlike the more direct 54, the 54 was basically the SE London’s answer to the 140, linking major town centres.
The Elmers End interchange was indeed very appalling for many years, and it still is even with the bus station there now, I recall many times the 54 dropping passengers off at Elmers End Green meaning people had to walk 7 mins to the tram crossing a couple of roads too, very disorganised.
That said the 54 probably would’ve been cut back regardless of the tram, it was a very long (albeit very useful) route and TfL hates long bus routes
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Post by vjaska on Mar 28, 2020 2:39:29 GMT
The changes to the 54 is still very controversial even after twenty years, even Tram enthusiasts were against the cutback to Elmers End, all it did was overload the 75 which on the Lewisham-Penge section is rather circuitous, unlike the more direct 54, the 54 was basically the SE London’s answer to the 140, linking major town centres. The Elmers End interchange was indeed very appalling for many years, and it still is even with the bus station there now, I recall many times the 54 dropping passengers off at Elmers End Green meaning people had to walk 7 mins to the tram crossing a couple of roads too, very disorganised. That said the 54 probably would’ve been cut back regardless of the tram, it was a very long (albeit very useful) route and TfL hates long bus routes It's not that TfL hates long bus routes but that as a result of allowing congestion to rise without too much control, bus routes had no choice but to be cut back to provide a reliable service and the 54 was one of many that fell victim. I get what people say about the 54 running to Croydon being very useful but I don't think it's achievable as it once was - I mean, Croydon can snarl up from traffic and then you have the conumdrum of where it terminates in Croydon. Couple that with the fact that if run it through Addiscombe & Lower Addiscombe, you hit additional traffic whilst if it runs along the old routing via Sandilands, then you overbus both Shirley Road & Addiscombe Road |
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