Croydon Tramlink bus changes 1997 consultation

[greenboy]

Mar 28, 2020 2:16:59 GMT route53 said:

The changes to the 54 is still very controversial even after twenty years, even Tram enthusiasts were against the cutback to Elmers End, all it did was overload the 75 which on the Lewisham-Penge section is rather circuitous, unlike the more direct 54, the 54 was basically the SE London’s answer to the 140, linking major town centres.

The Elmers End interchange was indeed very appalling for many years, and it still is even with the bus station there now, I recall many times the 54 dropping passengers off at Elmers End Green meaning people had to walk 7 mins to the tram crossing a couple of roads too, very disorganised.

That said the 54 probably would’ve been cut back regardless of the tram, it was a very long (albeit very useful) route and TfL hates long bus routes

I've never heard anybody say that they thought the 54 change was a good idea. Even if we accept that the 54 or 289 had to go when Tramlink opened it could have been done much better. For example a Lewisham to Thornton Heath Pond route, maintaining the link to Mayday Hospital, with something else covering the Purley and Woolwich ends. Likewise the 353 could have been kept going to Croydon but via the 466 route with something else done with the 466.

[southlondonbus]

I think the feeling was had the 54 been split like many routes were the same time there would likely have been an overlap ie Woolwich to Elmers End and Lewisham to West Croydon meaning that the faster link to Lewisham/Catford would have been maintained aswell as a direct link from Bellingham and Beckenham Hill to Croydon. The fact the tramlink terminated Elmers End/Beckenham meant there was no such overlap and local links broken.

[southlondonbus]

I'm not convinced the 54 would have been split had it not been for Tramlink. There are still long routes and indeed 2 have been created recently (55/88) and as said the 54 was like the 140. Unlike the 140 the 54 has never been massively overloaded (carries good loads but not to the extend that every bus is rammed). I could easily see it still running with a 90 mins journey time.

Had it been split it may have led to a large overlap between Elmers End and Lewisham which would not have been needed.

[route53]

If they wanted 54 passengers to switch from the bus to the tram then might it have been better to have had the 54 terminate at Beckenham Junction? That’s a far superior tram/rail/bus interchange for a start and it might’ve been less of a blow, that being said the 54 was a bloody useful route regardless where it was cut back to locals would never have been happy and rightfully so.

[southlondonbus]

The 54 is/was the kind of route that provides the quickest links. Croydon out to Elmers End and Beckenham was not much over 20 mins, Beckenham to Lewisham around 20 to 25 mins then direct to Woolwich.

Not dissimilar to the 93 which before the bridge closure had a journey time still below an hour despite its length. The only difference with the 93 is its underground feeder role that gets the freq up to every 5 mins as opposed to the 54 every 10 to 12 mins.

[greenboy]

Mar 28, 2020 9:28:22 GMT southlondonbus said:

I'm not convinced the 54 would have been split had it not been for Tramlink. There are still long routes and indeed 2 have been created recently (55/88) and as said the 54 was like the 140. Unlike the 140 the 54 has never been massively overloaded (carries good loads but not to the extend that every bus is rammed). I could easily see it still running with a 90 mins journey time.

Had it been split it may have led to a large overlap between Elmers End and Lewisham which would not have been needed.

Yes I think the 54 would have been left as it was if it weren't for Tramlink. It could have been split to Woolwich to Catford Garage and Lewisham to West Croydon but I don't think that would have been necessary. I think the 54 and 353 changes were both intended solely to force people off buses and onto Tramlink and I think both have failed lamentably.

[southlondonbus]

Coombe Lane doesn't even have a bus service and many of the surrounding roads must be more then 400m from either Lloyd Park, Coombe Lane or Gravel Hill.

[greenboy]

Mar 28, 2020 11:16:50 GMT southlondonbus said:

Coombe Lane doesn't even have a bus service and many of the surrounding roads must be more then 400m from either Lloyd Park, Coombe Lane or Gravel Hill.

It would be hard to justify restoring buses along there, the 64 and 433 are in close proximity to the populated area. I could understand the 353 being withdrawn from there but I think it should have been rerouted via Shirley Park to Croydon instead of the 466.

[londonbusboy]

Mar 28, 2020 2:39:29 GMT vjaska said:

Mar 28, 2020 2:16:59 GMT route53 said:

The changes to the 54 is still very controversial even after twenty years, even Tram enthusiasts were against the cutback to Elmers End, all it did was overload the 75 which on the Lewisham-Penge section is rather circuitous, unlike the more direct 54, the 54 was basically the SE London’s answer to the 140, linking major town centres.

The Elmers End interchange was indeed very appalling for many years, and it still is even with the bus station there now, I recall many times the 54 dropping passengers off at Elmers End Green meaning people had to walk 7 mins to the tram crossing a couple of roads too, very disorganised.

That said the 54 probably would’ve been cut back regardless of the tram, it was a very long (albeit very useful) route and TfL hates long bus routes

It's not that TfL hates long bus routes but that as a result of allowing congestion to rise without too much control, bus routes had no choice but to be cut back to provide a reliable service and the 54 was one of many that fell victim. I get what people say about the 54 running to Croydon being very useful but I don't think it's achievable as it once was - I mean, Croydon can snarl up from traffic and then you have the conumdrum of where it terminates in Croydon. Couple that with the fact that if run it through Addiscombe & Lower Addiscombe, you hit additional traffic whilst if it runs along the old routing via Sandilands, then you overbus both Shirley Road & Addiscombe Road

726 was a long route and was famed for its unreliability

[vjaska]

Mar 28, 2020 10:28:21 GMT greenboy said:

Mar 28, 2020 9:28:22 GMT southlondonbus said:

I'm not convinced the 54 would have been split had it not been for Tramlink. There are still long routes and indeed 2 have been created recently (55/88) and as said the 54 was like the 140. Unlike the 140 the 54 has never been massively overloaded (carries good loads but not to the extend that every bus is rammed). I could easily see it still running with a 90 mins journey time.

Had it been split it may have led to a large overlap between Elmers End and Lewisham which would not have been needed.

Yes I think the 54 would have been left as it was if it weren't for Tramlink. It could have been split to Woolwich to Catford Garage and Lewisham to West Croydon but I don't think that would have been necessary. I think the 54 and 353 changes were both intended solely to force people off buses and onto Tramlink and I think both have failed lamentably.

If the 54 was to continue serving Croydon, it would of had to be split to preserve reliability like the example you gave above.

[southlondonbus]

Or shortened at the Lewisham end. Maybe Croydon to Lewisham with something extended from Lewisham to Woolwich or vice versa. 99 Lewisham to Erith.

[danorak]

Mar 28, 2020 12:59:52 GMT vjaska said:

Mar 28, 2020 10:28:21 GMT greenboy said:

Yes I think the 54 would have been left as it was if it weren't for Tramlink. It could have been split to Woolwich to Catford Garage and Lewisham to West Croydon but I don't think that would have been necessary. I think the 54 and 353 changes were both intended solely to force people off buses and onto Tramlink and I think both have failed lamentably.

If the 54 was to continue serving Croydon, it would of had to be split to preserve reliability like the example you gave above.

Last year, I was lucky enough to spend an afternoon browsing files at the TfL archive. They indicated that operation of the 54 was a matter of concern throughout the 1980s (although by the time of Tramlink, it seemed to operate perfectly adequately). There were any number of plans to split it: the most notable to my eye being a plan in 1981 to run a 115 Woolwich - Catford Garage, withdraw the 54 beyond Lewisham and divert it between Rushey Green and Lewisham via what became the 181 through Hither Green.

Today, when I use the 54, there is a clear changeover of passengers at Lewisham. A Woolwich - Catford/Lewisham - Croydon split would have reflected usage much more realistically.

[greenboy]

Mar 28, 2020 13:51:58 GMT southlondonbus said:

Or shortened at the Lewisham end. Maybe Croydon to Lewisham with something extended from Lewisham to Woolwich or vice versa. 99 Lewisham to Erith.

Something like that is probably what would have happened and whilst Blackheath would have still have had the 202 to Catford the link from Belmont Hill to Lewisham Hospital and Catford would have been lost and wouldn't have been well received. The Woolwich to Catford Garage and Lewisham to Croydon I suggested previously would have overbussed the overlap section and not been cost effective. It would have been better to leave the 54 Woolwich to Croydon and added an extra bus or two as necessary to increase running time or stand time. The ideas from the early 80s suggest it was looked into but no satisfactory solution could be found.

[southlondonbus]

That's interesting about the 115 idea and the fact that the 54 was a cause for concern in 1981. I guess had the plan progressed then it would have tied in with the 1982 changes alongside the 47/94/208/261.

I guess in those days LT still saw the cost efficiency of long routes rather then splits so the 54 survived. Look at how in 1987 the 1 was re extended to TB replacing the 1 and 199 and shorter 47A.

[vjaska]

Mar 28, 2020 14:24:58 GMT greenboy said:

Mar 28, 2020 13:51:58 GMT southlondonbus said:

Or shortened at the Lewisham end. Maybe Croydon to Lewisham with something extended from Lewisham to Woolwich or vice versa. 99 Lewisham to Erith.

Something like that is probably what would have happened and whilst Blackheath would have still have had the 202 to Catford the link from Belmont Hill to Lewisham Hospital and Catford would have been lost and wouldn't have been well received. The Woolwich to Catford Garage and Lewisham to Croydon I suggested previously would have overbussed the overlap section and not been cost effective. It would have been better to leave the 54 Woolwich to Croydon and added an extra bus or two as necessary to increase running time or stand time. The ideas from the early 80s suggest it was looked into but no satisfactory solution could be found.

Another post above suggests that the split you suggested would adequately meet usage - it would be inconceivable to continue trying to provide the same route when congestion has significantly increased regardless of adding an extra bus or two rather than trying to keep a level of reliability across the entire routing in the form of a split.