|
|
Post by busman on Apr 26, 2020 10:16:45 GMT
TfL are facing the imperfect storm of central government funding cuts, fare freezes and now COVID-19. Although it hasn't been mentioned, it would be perfectly understandable if Elizabeth Line opening dates slipped back a few months as a result of the current situation. The government is having to borrow up to its eyeballs and will probably not be in a position to provide TfL with much by way of funding. The next mayor and TfL are going to have to make some really tough decisions and cut their cloth to suit their purse. What decisions would you make to help TfL do more with less on their bus network?
I have to add the caveat that this threat is purely speculative.
Here are my suggestions for the next mayoral term:
1. Temporary pause on the purchase of electric buses and associated infrastructure during the next mayoral term. All new buses to be Euro 6 or equivalent as minimum specification to comply with ULEZ requirements. These buses can be replaced by zero emission vehicles at the end of their lives probably at a much more affordable price and in time for the goal of the entire fleet being 100% zero emissions by 2037.
2. End the fare freeze. I won't speculate on how much fares should go up by, but we should allow fares to increase in a way that is more fitting with a self funding model that TfL now has to operate.
3 Hopper fare modification - no longer unlimited journeys in an hour for the price of a single trip. Initial full fare would be charged on the first trip, with a much reduced fare charged on subsequent trips within the hour.
4. Ensure that all cross boundary services are self funding either through passenger volume or county council contributions.
5. Frequencies - return to clockface frequencies and allow buses to run less frequent services on less busy parts of a route. This will allow reductions to be laser-focused and allow capacity to be maintained where needed.
6. Consolidation and reduction of bus services. For example, some changes could be made in my local area:
161 - Withdrawn between Woolwich and North Greenwich. Extended to Queen Mary Hospital. Converted to single deck, 286 bus stand space extended. (Creates new links for passengers and staff between QE & QM hospitals and new direct hospital links through Mottingham. Frequency changed to every 12 minutes during the day, every 15 minutes evenings.)
180 – Extended to Erith Quarry and diverted to North Greenwich as currently planned.
244 - Decked (see 472 change).
428 - Withdrawn between Dartford and Bluewater. Extended to Thamesmead South via route 229 to Belvedere Station, then Picardy Road, Woolwich Road, New Road, Abbey Wood Station then route B11 to stand at Thamesmead, Yarnton Way. Diverted between Crayford and Dartford via route 492. (Replaces proposed new Crossrail connections for the 469, maintains local Crossrail links along Aliske Road area).
469 – Withdrawn from Erith and diverted to Welling at Abbey Wood via New Road, Woolwich Road, Brampton Road, West Heath Road*, Longleigh Lane*, Lodge Hill* (*two ways), Upper Wickham Lane, Wickham Street, Central Avenue, Welling Station, Welling High Street. Last stop Upper Wickham Lane, Coton Road. Buses stand on Nags Head Lane, first stop Welling High Street near Tesco & Morrisons. (Creates new link between Abbey Wood and Welling. New links into Crossrail. Provides many areas with a new direct service to a hospital, retains services on roads only served by the B11).
472 – Frequency reduction and direct routing via Western Way as planned. Extension to Abbey Wood cancelled.
492 - Withdrawn between Crayford and Bluewater. Section between Crayford and Dartford replaced by 428.
B11 - Withdrawn. Partially replaced by 428 and 469 change.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2020 10:27:10 GMT
One change I can see going ahead now is the Gallions Reach changes! These are awful for passengers but will save TfL money. The other 241/474 changes in Custom House introduced as Crossrail is now unlikely to open until 2022?
15H should be withdrawn and the buses sold to raise funds.
I also agree fares need to rise on buses - £1.50 is a bargain and even a modest increase of 10p - 20p will surely help the situation. I don't believe this will discourage passengers and if fares had risen with inflation surely they would be higher than this?
|
|
|
|
Post by george on Apr 26, 2020 10:29:44 GMT
One change I can see going ahead now is the Gallions Reach changes! These are awful for passengers but will save TfL money. The other 241/474 changes in Custom House introduced as Crossrail is now unlikely to open until 2022? 15H should be withdrawn and the buses sold to raise funds. I also agree fares need to rise on buses - £1.50 is a bargain and even a modest increase of 10p - 20p will surely help the situation. I don't believe this will discourage passengers and if fares had risen with inflation surely they would be higher than this? Yes with the 15H. I know this will not please some enthusiast but I feel these kind of services should be run by private companies and not TfL. |
|
|
|
Post by snowman on Apr 26, 2020 11:18:40 GMT
I think there will be serious review, not just dabbling to bus service provision
Changing (rerouting) routes will take too long, will be more of a trickle of changes
However I see serious cuts to Central London bus frequency, probably 30-40%
Generally I see big cuts between peaks, about 9:30 until 3pm. Yes it will make some shifts short, but the need to save money will override the inconvenience. Afternoon services will operate for a longer peak hour from school close time around 3:15 to about 7pm (maybe 7:45 in outer London where routes connect with trains)
I can see savage cuts to evening, early weekend, mid morning Sunday and night services. Some routes may go down from 6-8 buses to only every 15, 20 or 30 minutes. Basically the era of mainly carrying fresh air will end.
I can’t remember where it is, but few months ago, one of the TfL board (or committee) papers had the cost breakdown of all the free travel listed by type : 60+ tickets, disability tickets, staff partners tickets etc. I see serious axe to these saving £100-200 million a year. Coronavirus will be the excuse to get these killed as they are unpalatable to voters
Finally, I could see evening (say after 9pm) and night services being at higher rate, say £2.50. If use services after this time your card gets charged more.
|
|
|
|
Post by galwhv69 on Apr 26, 2020 12:25:47 GMT
Whilst I will hate it myself think it may manage
37 cut back from Putney Heath to Wandsworth
315 cut back to every 30 minutes
3 cut back to every 12 minutes (a few extras during peaks though)
265 not doing Bessborough road double run towards Tolworth
969 running one day only instead of 2
265 reduced to every 14 minutes
209 & 378 & 485 merged (doesn't go via Putney Bridge, turns right instead to do 485 route to Wandsworth
14 cut back to Putney High Street (AF garage)
170 cut back from Danebury Avenue to Earl Spencer
K3 reduced to every 18 - 20 minutes
85 cut from Putney Bridge to Putney High Street (Turn in AF but stand outside on Chelverton Road stand)
424 withdrawn between Putney Bridge and Putney Heath
424 reduced to every 40 minutes
39 diverted via 424 between Putney Heath & Putney Bridge (not sure if long WS's can do turn from Chartfield Avenue to Genoa Avenue though)
15H withdrawn
|
|
|
|
Post by M1104 on Apr 26, 2020 12:46:54 GMT
Temporary pause on the purchase of electric buses and associated infrastructure during the next mayoral term. All new buses to be Euro 6 or equivalent as minimum specification to comply with ULEZ requirements. These buses can be replaced by zero emission vehicles at the end of their lives probably at a much more affordable price and in time for the goal of the entire fleet being 100% zero emissions by 2037. Perhaps TfL/operators could re-acquire any age appropriate ex-London buses that are still sitting around with the leaseholders, thus reducing the general need for new bus orders for the time being. |
|
|
|
Post by george on Apr 26, 2020 13:01:43 GMT
Whilst I will hate it myself think it may manage 37 cut back from Putney Heath to Wandsworth 315 cut back to every 30 minutes 3 cut back to every 12 minutes (a few extras during peaks though) 265 not doing Bessborough road double run towards Tolworth 969 running one day only instead of 2 265 reduced to every 14 minutes 209 & 378 & 485 merged (doesn't go via Putney Bridge, turns right instead to do 485 route to Wandsworth 14 cut back to Putney High Street (AF garage) 170 cut back from Danebury Avenue to Earl Spencer K3 reduced to every 18 - 20 minutes 85 cut from Putney Bridge to Putney High Street (Turn in AF but stand outside on Chelverton Road stand) 424 withdrawn between Putney Bridge and Putney Heath 424 reduced to every 40 minutes 39 diverted via 424 between Putney Heath & Putney Bridge (not sure if long WS's can do turn from Chartfield Avenue to Genoa Avenue though) 15H withdrawn With your 209/378 and 485 merger can you confirm whether your route is Mortlake to Wandsworth or castelnau to Wandsworth? |
|
|
|
Post by galwhv69 on Apr 26, 2020 13:41:26 GMT
Whilst I will hate it myself think it may manage 37 cut back from Putney Heath to Wandsworth 315 cut back to every 30 minutes 3 cut back to every 12 minutes (a few extras during peaks though) 265 not doing Bessborough road double run towards Tolworth 969 running one day only instead of 2 265 reduced to every 14 minutes 209 & 378 & 485 merged (doesn't go via Putney Bridge, turns right instead to do 485 route to Wandsworth 14 cut back to Putney High Street (AF garage) 170 cut back from Danebury Avenue to Earl Spencer K3 reduced to every 18 - 20 minutes 85 cut from Putney Bridge to Putney High Street (Turn in AF but stand outside on Chelverton Road stand) 424 withdrawn between Putney Bridge and Putney Heath 424 reduced to every 40 minutes 39 diverted via 424 between Putney Heath & Putney Bridge (not sure if long WS's can do turn from Chartfield Avenue to Genoa Avenue though) 15H withdrawn With your 209/378 and 485 merger can you confirm whether your route is Mortlake to Wandsworth or castelnau to Wandsworth? Ah, now I've seen the map it does look tricky lol I'd do 209 from Mortlake to Castelnau,Castelnau,Church Road,Mill Hill Road then 485 to Wandsworth Only really misses Rocks Lane stops but there can be stops at both ends of it (Castelnau & Mill Hill Road to compensate) |
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Apr 26, 2020 14:34:13 GMT
I know it's too late now as orders are in but the 23 and C3 should be existing buses now due to three being enough already for both routes and the 173 and 174 should go back to Smart hybrids to save infrastructure costs. By all means in 18 months time 2 years go ahead and re use buses on other contracts.
|
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Apr 26, 2020 14:52:17 GMT
I know it's too late now as orders are in but the 23 and C3 should be existing buses now due to three being enough already for both routes and the 173 and 174 should go back to Smart hybrids to save infrastructure costs. By all means in 18 months time 2 years go ahead and re use buses on other contracts. I don’t think the 23 & C3 could of been existing buses given the 23’s DNH’s & 212 VH’s are expected to go off lease unless there was something in then re-purchasing the buses. |
|
|
|
Post by george on Apr 26, 2020 15:12:28 GMT
With your 209/378 and 485 merger can you confirm whether your route is Mortlake to Wandsworth or castelnau to Wandsworth? Ah, now I've seen the map it does look tricky lol I'd do 209 from Mortlake to Castelnau,Castelnau,Church Road,Mill Hill Road then 485 to Wandsworth Only really misses Rocks Lane stops but there can be stops at both ends of it (Castelnau & Mill Hill Road to compensate) The one thing I'll say is that most people using the 209 are coming from Hammersmith so you're very unlikely to walk over the bridge and catch a bus to Wandsworth from Castelnau when you have got the frequent 220 from the bus station. |
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Apr 26, 2020 15:14:27 GMT
But an operator can re lease for another contract. Stagecoach have kept their 63 reg E400s.
The C3 I thought could use the hybrids/smart hybrids not needed on the 262 and 473.
|
|
|
|
Post by foxhat on Apr 26, 2020 15:21:39 GMT
I would actually quite like TfL to get bus operators taking on more financial responsibility for the route contracts they run. That'll save TfL QUITE a lot of money. Obviously some routes would need a small subsidy to top them up. There are a number of little backwater routes which don't really need to run much beyond 2200 or before 0600 (exceptions do apply). Likewise routes do not need to operate A-B all day long first bus to last. Fine balance though between continuing to provide a turn up and go service and operating a financially viable network.
|
|
|
|
Post by MoEnviro on Apr 26, 2020 15:58:39 GMT
I would actually quite like TfL to get bus operators taking on more financial responsibility fr the route contracts they run. That'll save TfL QUITE a lot of money. Obviously some routes would need a small subsidy to top them up. There are a number of little backwater routes which don't really need to run much beyond 2200 or before 0600 (exceptions do apply). Likewise routes do not need to operate A-B all day long first bus to last. Fine balance though between continuing to provide a turn up and go service and operating a financially viable network. But surely TfL should be assessing how many passengers are using a route after 2200, and if its not well used. They should be proposing it runs much less frequently or withdrawn completely. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Apr 26, 2020 16:04:38 GMT
I think there will be serious review, not just dabbling to bus service provision Changing (rerouting) routes will take too long, will be more of a trickle of changes However I see serious cuts to Central London bus frequency, probably 30-40% Generally I see big cuts between peaks, about 9:30 until 3pm. Yes it will make some shifts short, but the need to save money will override the inconvenience. Afternoon services will operate for a longer peak hour from school close time around 3:15 to about 7pm (maybe 7:45 in outer London where routes connect with trains) I can see savage cuts to evening, early weekend, mid morning Sunday and night services. Some routes may go down from 6-8 buses to only every 15, 20 or 30 minutes. Basically the era of mainly carrying fresh air will end. I can’t remember where it is, but few months ago, one of the TfL board (or committee) papers had the cost breakdown of all the free travel listed by type : 60+ tickets, disability tickets, staff partners tickets etc. I see serious axe to these saving £100-200 million a year. Coronavirus will be the excuse to get these killed as they are unpalatable to voters Finally, I could see evening (say after 9pm) and night services being at higher rate, say £2.50. If use services after this time your card gets charged more. I wouldn't be surprised if a few routes are 'furloughed' in the short term such as the 521 or temporarily curtailed like the 19 at Holborn (as was previously proposed) the 21 at Moorgate or Old Street, the 417 at BN and there are endless other possibilities. Evening and night services are likely to bear the brunt though, some were questionable anyway but with the night time economy effectively closed until further notice. Same on LO/LU, Bakerloo Line to Queens Park, Piccadilly Line to Rayners Lane and LO services to Sydenham/West Croydon at New Cross Gate. |
|
