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Post by southlondonbus on May 3, 2020 12:49:11 GMT
Following on from Croydon and Bexleyheath I thought I would try and re create the consultation for the Jubilee line changes. Partly inspired as whilst it's kind of obvious now, the 109 was part of that consultation due to the 59 created out of it and the 188.
1 Withdrawn school journeys to Rotherhithe and extended at all times to Canada Water Station.
N1 extend from Plumstead to Thamesmead replacing part of the N53.
47 diverted via CW.
53 withdrawn between Deptford and Plumstead Common.
59 new route from Streatham Hill to Euston.
63 withdrawn between Honor oak and Crystal Palace.
77 withdrawn. Replaced by the 377 and 447.
109 Withdrawn between Brixton and Trafalgar Square
188 withdrawn between Elephant and Euston. Extended to North Greenwich and diverted via CW.
199 withdrawn betwen Surrey Quays and Elephant and diverted to CW.
381 new route replacing the P11
377 new route Clapham Junction to London Bridge. Not sure if replacing the 381 between Waterloo and LB. Replaced the withdrawn 77.
447 new route from Tooting to Vaxhall via Queenstown Road replacing route 77.
453 new route from PD to Elephant
P10 New route from Crystal Palace to Surrey Quays via the 63 and Five Estates.
P11 re numbered 381. Possibly cut to LB
P13 diverted via CW. Not sure if this was proposed to be be replaced by the P10 between Peckham and Surrey Quays.
X53 Withdrawn
N70 withdrawn. Partly replaced by the N381. Rest of route via New Cross, Brockley Rise and Norwood Junction not replaced.
N381 new route replacing part of the N70 every night.
Also routes 108, 161 and 422 diverted or extended to North Greenwich.
472 new route replacing the 272 and X72.
96 proposed? to be extended to North Greenwich.
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Post by thesquirrels on May 3, 2020 13:51:37 GMT
Following on from Croydon and Bexleyheath I thought I would try and re create the consultation for the Jubilee line changes. Partly inspired as whilst it's kind of obvious now, the 109 was part of that consultation due to the 59 created out of it and the 188. 1 Withdrawn school journeys to Rotherhithe and extended at all times to Canada Water Station. N1 extend from Plumstead to Thamesmead replacing part of the N53. 47 diverted via CW. 53 withdrawn between Deptford and Plumstead Common. 59 new route from Streatham Hill to Euston. 63 withdrawn between Honor oak and Crystal Palace. 77 withdrawn. Replaced by the 377 and 447. 109 Withdrawn between Brixton and Trafalgar Square 188 withdrawn between Elephant and Euston. Extended to North Greenwich and diverted via CW. 199 withdrawn betwen Surrey Quays and Elephant and diverted to CW. 381 new route replacing the P11 377 new route Clapham Junction to London Bridge. Not sure if replacing the 381 between Waterloo and LB. Replaced the withdrawn 77. 447 new route from Tooting to Vaxhall via Queenstown Road replacing route 77. 453 new route from PD to Elephant P10 New route from Crystal Palace to Surrey Quays via the 63 and Five Estates. P11 re numbered 381. Possibly cut to LB P13 diverted via CW. Not sure if this was proposed to be be replaced by the P10 between Peckham and Surrey Quays. X53 Withdrawn N70 withdrawn. Partly replaced by the N381. Rest of route via New Cross, Brockley Rise and Norwood Junction not replaced. N381 new route replacing part of the N70 every night. Also routes 108, 161 and 422 diverted or extended to North Greenwich. 472 new route replacing the 272 and X72. 96 proposed? to be extended to North Greenwich. Mindful of the 453 and 363(P10) only appearing when the Congestion Charge came in, I wonder why those changes weren't implemented at the time. The very short overlap on the 53 split is interesting, but with that route now curtailed to County Hall the structure now isn't very different to that proposed then. I think having the P12 extended cover the Peckham - Surrey Quays was probably a better fit than hacking the 63 structure back with it's important role in plugging into the tube at E&C. There must have been a feeling that a direct link to the railhead at CW would have been useful but I note the Five Estates area still has no link now - the (newly added!) 136 and 363 shows that all roads lead to the Elephant and the 381 is left to it from Peckham Hill Street, linking fairly swiftly up to Surrey Quays but taking much longer to get to Canada Water, trundling as it does round the Rotherhithe peninsula. I presume the P10 was suggested as a number as Arriva East Herts ran their 363 out of Tottenham Hale at the time of the consultation, yet they took the step of de-suffixing the P11 to allow a night service to correspond numerically. I never used the N70 but if usage was ever high then it wasn't backed up with a chorus of protest when it was axed, though I don't doubt there were complaints. On a map it looks like a useful thing to bring back, especially with demographic shifts around Goldsmiths, Brockley and Forest Hill in recent years, and increasingly Sydenham and South Norwood now. |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 3, 2020 13:54:23 GMT
The N70 only ran Friday and Saturday nights and didn't really parallel and regular daytime links.
As we have said before the numbers of the 53 and proposed 453 simply switched round (even more so now with the County Hall cut almost being the proposed 453). Even if it survived in 1999 the 53 was always going to be altered simply due to its structure, half the service beyond TSQ to Oxo, limited at times service to PD and shorts between Woolwich and TSQ in the peaks meant at some point it was going to be restructured anyways . The 2003 C Charge provided the opportunity.
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Post by vjaska on May 3, 2020 14:03:54 GMT
The N70 only ran Friday and Saturday nights and didn't really parallel and regular daytime links. As we have said before the numbers of the 53 and proposed 453 simply switched round (even more so now with the County Hall cut almost being the proposed 453). Even if it survived in 1999 the 53 was always going to be altered simply due to its structure, half the service beyond TSQ to Oxo, limited at times service to PD and shorts between Woolwich and TSQ in the peaks meant at some point it was going to be restructured anyways . The 2003 C Charge provided the opportunity. I wonder if the N70 had its plug pulled too quickly given that it was only in that form for a few years having been a circular night route from Trafalgar Square to Trafalgar Square via parts of Inner South East London during the mid 90’s. |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 3, 2020 14:28:11 GMT
Quite possibly it was. At the very least it left NJ without a night link which an extension of the N2 or N176 would have rectified, particularly the N176 as it would have maintained the N70 link to Forest Hill.
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Post by redexpress on May 3, 2020 14:54:50 GMT
Mindful of the 453 and 363(P10) only appearing when the Congestion Charge came in, I wonder why those changes weren't implemented at the time. The very short overlap on the 53 split is interesting, but with that route now curtailed to County Hall the structure now isn't very different to that proposed then. I think having the P12 extended cover the Peckham - Surrey Quays was probably a better fit than hacking the 63 structure back with it's important role in plugging into the tube at E&C. There must have been a feeling that a direct link to the railhead at CW would have been useful but I note the Five Estates area still has no link now - the (newly added!) 136 and 363 shows that all roads lead to the Elephant and the 381 is left to it from Peckham Hill Street, linking fairly swiftly up to Surrey Quays but taking much longer to get to Canada Water, trundling as it does round the Rotherhithe peninsula. I presume the P10 was suggested as a number as Arriva East Herts ran their 363 out of Tottenham Hale at the time of the consultation, yet they took the step of de-suffixing the P11 to allow a night service to correspond numerically. I never used the N70 but if usage was ever high then it wasn't backed up with a chorus of protest when it was axed, though I don't doubt there were complaints. On a map it looks like a useful thing to bring back, especially with demographic shifts around Goldsmiths, Brockley and Forest Hill in recent years, and increasingly Sydenham and South Norwood now. If you're coming from the Peckham area the 381 serves Canada Water before going round the Rotherhithe peninsula, so it's not that bad a link. The twisty route through South Bermondsey adds a bit of time though.
I reckon the fact that the N70 duplicated the N171 through Brockley probably counted against it, even if (like many night routes) the N171 was still only hourly at that stage. It's still surprising that South Norwood didn't get a replacement service - as has been suggested a shortish extension of the N176 would have done the trick.
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Post by rift on May 3, 2020 15:05:42 GMT
Mindful of the 453 and 363(P10) only appearing when the Congestion Charge came in, I wonder why those changes weren't implemented at the time. The very short overlap on the 53 split is interesting, but with that route now curtailed to County Hall the structure now isn't very different to that proposed then. I think having the P12 extended cover the Peckham - Surrey Quays was probably a better fit than hacking the 63 structure back with it's important role in plugging into the tube at E&C. There must have been a feeling that a direct link to the railhead at CW would have been useful but I note the Five Estates area still has no link now - the (newly added!) 136 and 363 shows that all roads lead to the Elephant and the 381 is left to it from Peckham Hill Street, linking fairly swiftly up to Surrey Quays but taking much longer to get to Canada Water, trundling as it does round the Rotherhithe peninsula. I presume the P10 was suggested as a number as Arriva East Herts ran their 363 out of Tottenham Hale at the time of the consultation, yet they took the step of de-suffixing the P11 to allow a night service to correspond numerically. I never used the N70 but if usage was ever high then it wasn't backed up with a chorus of protest when it was axed, though I don't doubt there were complaints. On a map it looks like a useful thing to bring back, especially with demographic shifts around Goldsmiths, Brockley and Forest Hill in recent years, and increasingly Sydenham and South Norwood now. If you're coming from the Peckham area the 381 serves Canada Water before going round the Rotherhithe peninsula, so it's not that bad a link. The twisty route through South Bermondsey adds a bit of time though.
I reckon the fact that the N70 duplicated the N171 through Brockley probably counted against it, even if (like many night routes) the N171 was still only hourly at that stage. It's still surprising that South Norwood didn't get a replacement service - as has been suggested a shortish extension of the N176 would have done the trick.
The 75 becoming 24 hour would also give South Norwood a night service, linking to Croydon and Lewisham night bus hubs. |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 3, 2020 15:34:08 GMT
Of all the changes none of them were actually that bad apart from the 53/453 and the 199.
The eventful 63/363/P10 change was better as It provided much needed assistance to the 63 between Peckham and Elephant.
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Post by vjaska on May 3, 2020 16:32:04 GMT
Of all the changes none of them were actually that bad apart from the 53/453 and the 199. The eventful 63/363/P10 change was better as It provided much needed assistance to the 63 between Peckham and Elephant. The N70 one I'd add to the bad part but still, certainly a much more positive one even then |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 3, 2020 16:49:07 GMT
I agree. Ironically a year after withdrawnal, in the age of standardisation the route would probably have increased to 7 nights a week.
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Post by ThinLizzy on May 7, 2020 10:29:48 GMT
Following on from Croydon and Bexleyheath I thought I would try and re create the consultation for the Jubilee line changes. Partly inspired as whilst it's kind of obvious now, the 109 was part of that consultation due to the 59 created out of it and the 188. 1 Withdrawn school journeys to Rotherhithe and extended at all times to Canada Water Station. N1 extend from Plumstead to Thamesmead replacing part of the N53. 47 diverted via CW. 53 withdrawn between Deptford and Plumstead Common. 59 new route from Streatham Hill to Euston. 63 withdrawn between Honor oak and Crystal Palace. 77 withdrawn. Replaced by the 377 and 447. 109 Withdrawn between Brixton and Trafalgar Square 188 withdrawn between Elephant and Euston. Extended to North Greenwich and diverted via CW. 199 withdrawn betwen Surrey Quays and Elephant and diverted to CW. 381 new route replacing the P11 377 new route Clapham Junction to London Bridge. Not sure if replacing the 381 between Waterloo and LB. Replaced the withdrawn 77. 447 new route from Tooting to Vaxhall via Queenstown Road replacing route 77. 453 new route from PD to Elephant P10 New route from Crystal Palace to Surrey Quays via the 63 and Five Estates. P11 re numbered 381. Possibly cut to LB P13 diverted via CW. Not sure if this was proposed to be be replaced by the P10 between Peckham and Surrey Quays. X53 Withdrawn N70 withdrawn. Partly replaced by the N381. Rest of route via New Cross, Brockley Rise and Norwood Junction not replaced. N381 new route replacing part of the N70 every night. Also routes 108, 161 and 422 diverted or extended to North Greenwich. 472 new route replacing the 272 and X72. 96 proposed? to be extended to North Greenwich. Was the 161 or the 422 a later extension to North Greenwich? I used to travel to University at Woolwich through North Greenwich (granted it was over 20 years ago now!) I only remember the 472 and another route at North Greenwich running through to Woolwich |
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Post by redexpress on May 7, 2020 10:55:07 GMT
Following on from Croydon and Bexleyheath I thought I would try and re create the consultation for the Jubilee line changes. Partly inspired as whilst it's kind of obvious now, the 109 was part of that consultation due to the 59 created out of it and the 188. 1 Withdrawn school journeys to Rotherhithe and extended at all times to Canada Water Station. N1 extend from Plumstead to Thamesmead replacing part of the N53. 47 diverted via CW. 53 withdrawn between Deptford and Plumstead Common. 59 new route from Streatham Hill to Euston. 63 withdrawn between Honor oak and Crystal Palace. 77 withdrawn. Replaced by the 377 and 447. 109 Withdrawn between Brixton and Trafalgar Square 188 withdrawn between Elephant and Euston. Extended to North Greenwich and diverted via CW. 199 withdrawn betwen Surrey Quays and Elephant and diverted to CW. 381 new route replacing the P11 377 new route Clapham Junction to London Bridge. Not sure if replacing the 381 between Waterloo and LB. Replaced the withdrawn 77. 447 new route from Tooting to Vaxhall via Queenstown Road replacing route 77. 453 new route from PD to Elephant P10 New route from Crystal Palace to Surrey Quays via the 63 and Five Estates. P11 re numbered 381. Possibly cut to LB P13 diverted via CW. Not sure if this was proposed to be be replaced by the P10 between Peckham and Surrey Quays. X53 Withdrawn N70 withdrawn. Partly replaced by the N381. Rest of route via New Cross, Brockley Rise and Norwood Junction not replaced. N381 new route replacing part of the N70 every night. Also routes 108, 161 and 422 diverted or extended to North Greenwich. 472 new route replacing the 272 and X72. 96 proposed? to be extended to North Greenwich. Was the 161 or the 422 a later extension to North Greenwich? I used to travel to University at Woolwich through North Greenwich (granted it was over 20 years ago now!) I only remember the 472 and another route at North Greenwich running through to Woolwich 161 was a late addition to the plan, it was extended in August 1999 whereas most of the other routes (including 422) had already been extended in May 1999. So it was in place for the full opening of the JL extension, but not for the first phase. |
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Post by southlondonbus on May 7, 2020 11:26:27 GMT
The good to know. I guess LRT weren't as tight as TFL have to be now and could introduce the changes in advance of the line opening.
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Post by redexpress on May 7, 2020 14:57:24 GMT
The good to know. I guess LRT weren't as tight as TFL have to be now and could introduce the changes in advance of the line opening. The Jubilee Line extension opened in three phases. Buses (188, 422, 472) were extended to North Greenwich in connection with phase 1, which was Stratford - North Greenwich. Extension to Waterloo followed in September 1999, then came the link to the existing Jubilee Line in November 1999.
For some reason the 108 had already been diverted via North Greenwich when it was still a building site, in November 1998.
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Post by southlondonbus on May 7, 2020 15:40:16 GMT
I know the 199 diverted a week before CW opening putting even more pressure on the 1. Not that I think the Jubilee line ever really relieved the 1.
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