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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 4:45:52 GMT
Replacement blinds would be at the operator's expense. I can imagine the first set (along with the unit) being costed into the tender but any future replacement would be bought by the operator. Therefore any saving in cost would be for operators, not TfL thus would have no impact on cuts etc. All operator cost, including blind displays will be priced into the contract cost, so ultimately TfL will pay. If you are bidding for a route needing 10 vehicles, you may budget for 10 smart blind dsiplays, plus say 25 blind sets over the course of a contract and associated staff cost, rather than just the 10 LED panels. Only the first set at the start of the contract would be costed into the tender. Any replacements due to service changes on TfL's part would also be paid by TfL as it would have been a service change where the operator would have been issued an updated service specification and the change would have to be costed by the operator. Any replacements due to garage transfers/new routes arriving at the garage mid-contract etc would be paid for by the operator. Only the first set of blinds for the allocated vehicles would be costed into the tender. Anything on top of that is at the expense of the operator. Example A: A new route is won requiring 10 vehicles. They would budget for the blinds for only those vehicles (plus a small proportion of extra spares, certainly not the 25 you mentioned). This would be factored into the contract price and TfL would pay.
Example B: A route transfers to a new garage mid contract. The operator would purchase the blinds for this as the change was not part of the original contract. TfL will not pay for this as it is the operator's choice to move the route. This would not have been factored into the tender as it is a mid contract change at the choice of the operator.
Example C: A route is rerouted, or cutback mid contract. TfL would issue the operator with a "Service Change Specification" document (aka minispec) which would detail the changes. The operator would then cost how much this change will cost (or save) and relay back to TfL. The cost of blinds would also be costed and as the change was at TfL's choice, they would pay for the replacement sets and the cost of the route changes to the operator.
Hope this helps.
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Post by snowman on Jun 4, 2020 4:53:13 GMT
All operator cost, including blind displays will be priced into the contract cost, so ultimately TfL will pay. If you are bidding for a route needing 10 vehicles, you may budget for 10 smart blind dsiplays, plus say 25 blind sets over the course of a contract and associated staff cost, rather than just the 10 LED panels. Only the first set would be costed into the tender. Any replacements due to service changes on TfL's part would also be paid by TfL as it would have been a service change where the operator would have been issued an updated service specification and the change would have to be costed by the operator. Any replacements due to garage transfers/new routes etc would be paid for by the operator. Only the first set of blinds for the allocated vehicles would be costed into the tender. Anything on top of that is at the expense of the operator. Not quite correct for a new route, as that would be costed in the bid for that new route. Also if a new used vehicle tender is won, it may require new blinds if TfL has changed blind spec since previous contract won (and 7 years ago blinds were commonly dayglo, not white), again would be costed in the bid.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 4:56:55 GMT
Only the first set would be costed into the tender. Any replacements due to service changes on TfL's part would also be paid by TfL as it would have been a service change where the operator would have been issued an updated service specification and the change would have to be costed by the operator. Any replacements due to garage transfers/new routes etc would be paid for by the operator. Only the first set of blinds for the allocated vehicles would be costed into the tender. Anything on top of that is at the expense of the operator. Not quite correct for a new route, as that would be costed in the bid for that new route. Also if a new used vehicle tender is won, it may require new blinds if TfL has changed blind spec since previous contract won (and 7 years ago blinds were commonly dayglo, not white), again would be costed in the bid. Sorry if I was unclear, I was referring to a new route transferring into the garage and replacement blinds for other vehicles at the garage. I wasn't referring to the takeover of a new route.
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 4, 2020 6:02:42 GMT
I remember reading here I think that blinds are extremely expensive, I think several hundred per set? so surprised LEDs would be too expensive especially how quick some blinds need changing. Also the manhours involved in actually changing them. Can take several hours per bus. Some of the blinds are really hard to access as well, for example on WHVs you have to take the rear seats out upstairs to access the rear number blind, or WSs the glass has to come out to change the front blinds as it's too tight to do it from inside the cab (and if you wanted to do it from inside the cab the assault screen has to come out as well. Also the Metro boxes obstruct access to a lot of side blinds so often have to be removed as well. And once you've done all this and fitted them, that could be 3 hours of an engineer's day gone that could have been spent fixing buses... I didn't realise the pain of changing these things - no wonder some buses just run about with torn blinds or jammed ones I guess it's the same pain to add inserts, I pity the engineers having to add 456 to the blindset of the WS's still at Northumberland Park I saw the video of how they are made, it reminded me of a process of days gone bay, dipping into solutions, waxes etc, cutting into strips, getting barcodes lined up so it works - you can see the man hours just on the part of the manufacturer themselves. I think the new blindsets on the P5's and on the Stagecoach bus at the outset show how far the tech has come. It's a lot better than the attempts with the e-paper on TEH1224 back in the day. The Via Points could change, and display important messages - or TfL could ask for inserts for the existing tech which will still be a pain to change. LCD / LED tech is the same stuff in our monitors, TV's and phones, it doesn't fail constantly unless due to user damage (biro's shut in laptop lids etc.), so might be worth investing in. TfL has invested in worse over the years (Crossrail overspend and delay, cablecar to Nowhere, cycle lanes), so this type of tech which doesn't lose the Johnston font is ideal. They just have to make the route number smaller and add a little spacing. The same thing McKenna do when making the route number and destination on the roller blind. If it's about an exclusive tie-up between McKenna and TfL, then McKenna could just supply LED blinds with this DPI level (Dots Per Inch resolution). It would do away with route numbers stuck on the dash which could be mistaken for running numbers or something else by Joe Public, or titchy 'Bus Full' laminated cards which may have to be moved every few stops (at risk to driver leaving cab). Could be useful if passenger numbers ever recover. It's the clinging to nostalgia and 'screw everyone else' attitude which has ruined TfL in the first place. I'd love it if we were still in 2003 at the heart of the bus boom and investment, with variety of liveries such as Stagecoach and Metroline's, but times have moved on. Staying in the past can affect the future. I'm surprised no one at TfL looks at Buses Magazine to see life outside the M25, sees the branding by Best Impressions, different liveries or schemes to encourage passengers, bus priority lanes such as guided busways, working closer with operators and allowing them a little artistic bent, creature comforts like WiFi
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 7:07:06 GMT
Also the manhours involved in actually changing them. Can take several hours per bus. Some of the blinds are really hard to access as well, for example on WHVs you have to take the rear seats out upstairs to access the rear number blind, or WSs the glass has to come out to change the front blinds as it's too tight to do it from inside the cab (and if you wanted to do it from inside the cab the assault screen has to come out as well. Also the Metro boxes obstruct access to a lot of side blinds so often have to be removed as well. And once you've done all this and fitted them, that could be 3 hours of an engineer's day gone that could have been spent fixing buses... I didn't realise the pain of changing these things - no wonder some buses just run about with torn blinds or jammed ones I guess it's the same pain to add inserts, I pity the engineers having to add 456 to the blindset of the WS's still at Northumberland Park I saw the video of how they are made, it reminded me of a process of days gone bay, dipping into solutions, waxes etc, cutting into strips, getting barcodes lined up so it works - you can see the man hours just on the part of the manufacturer themselves. I think the new blindsets on the P5's and on the Stagecoach bus at the outset show how far the tech has come. It's a lot better than the attempts with the e-paper on TEH1224 back in the day. The Via Points could change, and display important messages - or TfL could ask for inserts for the existing tech which will still be a pain to change. LCD / LED tech is the same stuff in our monitors, TV's and phones, it doesn't fail constantly unless due to user damage (biro's shut in laptop lids etc.), so might be worth investing in. TfL has invested in worse over the years (Crossrail overspend and delay, cablecar to Nowhere, cycle lanes), so this type of tech which doesn't lose the Johnston font is ideal. They just have to make the route number smaller and add a little spacing. The same thing McKenna do when making the route number and destination on the roller blind. If it's about an exclusive tie-up between McKenna and TfL, then McKenna could just supply LED blinds with this DPI level (Dots Per Inch resolution). It would do away with route numbers stuck on the dash which could be mistaken for running numbers or something else by Joe Public, or titchy 'Bus Full' laminated cards which may have to be moved every few stops (at risk to driver leaving cab). Could be useful if passenger numbers ever recover. It's the clinging to nostalgia and 'screw everyone else' attitude which has ruined TfL in the first place. I'd love it if we were still in 2003 at the heart of the bus boom and investment, with variety of liveries such as Stagecoach and Metroline's, but times have moved on. Staying in the past can affect the future. I'm surprised no one at TfL looks at Buses Magazine to see life outside the M25, sees the branding by Best Impressions, different liveries or schemes to encourage passengers, bus priority lanes such as guided busways, working closer with operators and allowing them a little artistic bent, creature comforts like WiFi Blinds are always one of the engineers' least favourite jobs. The inserts that clip onto the end of the blind are the worst as they have to be absolutely perfectly aligned otherwise the entire blind can tear. They're very difficult to fit and prone to tears so they don't get used much these days. Many operators just buy full replacement blinds instead. And if inserts are used they are usually fitted professionally by McKenna's. Stick on inserts are much better as they just stick over a white blank slide on the blind and are more fool proof. And I certainly don't envy the Northumberland Park engineers if they're doing blinds on WSs!!! The terrible access to blinds is the reason why the blinds are one of the first things that go in when building buses and the rest of the interior fittings get built around them 😳
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Post by Volvo on Jun 4, 2020 8:05:09 GMT
A lifetime of new blind-sets Sorry if im being stupid but What does this mean?
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 4, 2020 8:23:10 GMT
I didn't realise the pain of changing these things - no wonder some buses just run about with torn blinds or jammed ones I guess it's the same pain to add inserts, I pity the engineers having to add 456 to the blindset of the WS's still at Northumberland Park I saw the video of how they are made, it reminded me of a process of days gone bay, dipping into solutions, waxes etc, cutting into strips, getting barcodes lined up so it works - you can see the man hours just on the part of the manufacturer themselves. I think the new blindsets on the P5's and on the Stagecoach bus at the outset show how far the tech has come. It's a lot better than the attempts with the e-paper on TEH1224 back in the day. The Via Points could change, and display important messages - or TfL could ask for inserts for the existing tech which will still be a pain to change. LCD / LED tech is the same stuff in our monitors, TV's and phones, it doesn't fail constantly unless due to user damage (biro's shut in laptop lids etc.), so might be worth investing in. TfL has invested in worse over the years (Crossrail overspend and delay, cablecar to Nowhere, cycle lanes), so this type of tech which doesn't lose the Johnston font is ideal. They just have to make the route number smaller and add a little spacing. The same thing McKenna do when making the route number and destination on the roller blind. If it's about an exclusive tie-up between McKenna and TfL, then McKenna could just supply LED blinds with this DPI level (Dots Per Inch resolution). It would do away with route numbers stuck on the dash which could be mistaken for running numbers or something else by Joe Public, or titchy 'Bus Full' laminated cards which may have to be moved every few stops (at risk to driver leaving cab). Could be useful if passenger numbers ever recover. It's the clinging to nostalgia and 'screw everyone else' attitude which has ruined TfL in the first place. I'd love it if we were still in 2003 at the heart of the bus boom and investment, with variety of liveries such as Stagecoach and Metroline's, but times have moved on. Staying in the past can affect the future. I'm surprised no one at TfL looks at Buses Magazine to see life outside the M25, sees the branding by Best Impressions, different liveries or schemes to encourage passengers, bus priority lanes such as guided busways, working closer with operators and allowing them a little artistic bent, creature comforts like WiFi Blinds are always one of the engineers' least favourite jobs. The inserts that clip onto the end of the blind are the worst as they have to be absolutely perfectly aligned otherwise the entire blind can tear. They're very difficult to fit and prone to tears so they don't get used much these days. Many operators just buy full replacement blinds instead. And if inserts are used they are usually fitted professionally by McKenna's. Stick on inserts are much better as they just stick over a white blank slide on the blind and are more fool proof. And I certainly don't envy the Northumberland Park engineers if they're doing blinds on WSs!!! The terrible access to blinds is the reason why the blinds are one of the first things that go in when building buses and the rest of the interior fittings get built around them 😳 The stick on inserts are the best, it is what most operators had ordered.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 4, 2020 8:34:57 GMT
All operator cost, including blind displays will be priced into the contract cost, so ultimately TfL will pay. If you are bidding for a route needing 10 vehicles, you may budget for 10 smart blind dsiplays, plus say 25 blind sets over the course of a contract and associated staff cost, rather than just the 10 LED panels. Only the first set at the start of the contract would be costed into the tender. Any replacements due to service changes on TfL's part would also be paid by TfL as it would have been a service change where the operator would have been issued an updated service specification and the change would have to be costed by the operator. Any replacements due to garage transfers/new routes arriving at the garage mid-contract etc would be paid for by the operator. Only the first set of blinds for the allocated vehicles would be costed into the tender. Anything on top of that is at the expense of the operator. Example A: Â Â A new route is won requiring 10 vehicles. They would budget for the blinds for only those vehicles (plus a small proportion of extra spares, certainly not the 25 you mentioned). This would be factored into the contract price and TfL would pay.
Example B: Â Â A route transfers to a new garage mid contract. The operator would purchase the blinds for this as the change was not part of the original contract. TfL will not pay for this as it is the operator's choice to move the route. This would not have been factored into the tender as it is a mid contract change at the choice of the operator.
Example C:Â Â A route is rerouted, or cutback mid contract. TfL would issue the operator with a "Service Change Specification" document (aka minispec) which would detail the changes. The operator would then cost how much this change will cost (or save) and relay back to TfL. The cost of blinds would also be costed and as the change was at TfL's choice, they would pay for the replacement sets and the cost of the route changes to the operator.Â
Hope this helps. So let's use Example A. So say for the 405, 11 buses. How many would be ordered, just 11? Surely they will order blinds for other vehicles, which will be costed into the tender otherwise other buses would not be able to correctly show the route, inflexibility of fleet! ... So either way, shows how bad a product bus blinds are, or shows how expensive they are ... it is a lose/lose argument for blinds.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 4, 2020 8:45:54 GMT
Also the manhours involved in actually changing them. Can take several hours per bus. Some of the blinds are really hard to access as well, for example on WHVs you have to take the rear seats out upstairs to access the rear number blind, or WSs the glass has to come out to change the front blinds as it's too tight to do it from inside the cab (and if you wanted to do it from inside the cab the assault screen has to come out as well. Also the Metro boxes obstruct access to a lot of side blinds so often have to be removed as well. And once you've done all this and fitted them, that could be 3 hours of an engineer's day gone that could have been spent fixing buses... I didn't realise the pain of changing these things - no wonder some buses just run about with torn blinds or jammed ones I guess it's the same pain to add inserts, I pity the engineers having to add 456 to the blindset of the WS's still at Northumberland Park I saw the video of how they are made, it reminded me of a process of days gone bay, dipping into solutions, waxes etc, cutting into strips, getting barcodes lined up so it works - you can see the man hours just on the part of the manufacturer themselves. I think the new blindsets on the P5's and on the Stagecoach bus at the outset show how far the tech has come. It's a lot better than the attempts with the e-paper on TEH1224 back in the day. The Via Points could change, and display important messages - or TfL could ask for inserts for the existing tech which will still be a pain to change. LCD / LED tech is the same stuff in our monitors, TV's and phones, it doesn't fail constantly unless due to user damage (biro's shut in laptop lids etc.), so might be worth investing in. TfL has invested in worse over the years (Crossrail overspend and delay, cablecar to Nowhere, cycle lanes), so this type of tech which doesn't lose the Johnston font is ideal. They just have to make the route number smaller and add a little spacing. The same thing McKenna do when making the route number and destination on the roller blind. If it's about an exclusive tie-up between McKenna and TfL, then McKenna could just supply LED blinds with this DPI level (Dots Per Inch resolution). It would do away with route numbers stuck on the dash which could be mistaken for running numbers or something else by Joe Public, or titchy 'Bus Full' laminated cards which may have to be moved every few stops (at risk to driver leaving cab). Could be useful if passenger numbers ever recover. It's the clinging to nostalgia and 'screw everyone else' attitude which has ruined TfL in the first place. I'd love it if we were still in 2003 at the heart of the bus boom and investment, with variety of liveries such as Stagecoach and Metroline's, but times have moved on. Staying in the past can affect the future. I'm surprised no one at TfL looks at Buses Magazine to see life outside the M25, sees the branding by Best Impressions, different liveries or schemes to encourage passengers, bus priority lanes such as guided busways, working closer with operators and allowing them a little artistic bent, creature comforts like WiFi Changing blinds are not the nightmare some are saying. It has got harder on many newer buses for access, Wrightbus Gemini cross beam in way on front blindbox, the rear ones needs the upper deck seats lifts, just a few screws. The E400 is similar needs a few screw removed for rear seat to remove the blind. The front on the E200 is a nightmare and better of removing the blindbox cover completely first. Changing a set of front blind both route and number takes around 10 mins. A bus can be done in 30-40 mins. Power blinds take longer due to the re-programming of new blinds. Inserting them is very similar to standard blinds, although the metal casing of the power blinds needs to be removed. It can take about an hour to do power blind buses.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 9:31:49 GMT
Only the first set at the start of the contract would be costed into the tender. Any replacements due to service changes on TfL's part would also be paid by TfL as it would have been a service change where the operator would have been issued an updated service specification and the change would have to be costed by the operator. Any replacements due to garage transfers/new routes arriving at the garage mid-contract etc would be paid for by the operator. Only the first set of blinds for the allocated vehicles would be costed into the tender. Anything on top of that is at the expense of the operator. Example A: Â Â A new route is won requiring 10 vehicles. They would budget for the blinds for only those vehicles (plus a small proportion of extra spares, certainly not the 25 you mentioned). This would be factored into the contract price and TfL would pay.
Example B: Â Â A route transfers to a new garage mid contract. The operator would purchase the blinds for this as the change was not part of the original contract. TfL will not pay for this as it is the operator's choice to move the route. This would not have been factored into the tender as it is a mid contract change at the choice of the operator.
Example C:Â Â A route is rerouted, or cutback mid contract. TfL would issue the operator with a "Service Change Specification" document (aka minispec) which would detail the changes. The operator would then cost how much this change will cost (or save) and relay back to TfL. The cost of blinds would also be costed and as the change was at TfL's choice, they would pay for the replacement sets and the cost of the route changes to the operator.Â
Hope this helps. So let's use Example A. So say for the 405, 11 buses. How many would be ordered, just 11? Surely they will order blinds for other vehicles, which will be costed into the tender otherwise other buses would not be able to correctly show the route, inflexibility of fleet! ... So either way, shows how bad a product bus blinds are, or shows how expensive they are ... it is a lose/lose argument for blinds. That wouldn't be viewed as a necessity so wouldn't be costed in. Remember there has been a lot of downward pressure on contract prices recently. Although I certainly agree that it is a lose/lose for blinds.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 4, 2020 9:36:23 GMT
So let's use Example A. So say for the 405, 11 buses. How many would be ordered, just 11? Surely they will order blinds for other vehicles, which will be costed into the tender otherwise other buses would not be able to correctly show the route, inflexibility of fleet! ... So either way, shows how bad a product bus blinds are, or shows how expensive they are ... it is a lose/lose argument for blinds. That wouldn't be viewed as a necessity so wouldn't be costed in. Remember there has been a lot of downward pressure on contract prices recently. Although I certainly agree that it is a lose/lose for blinds. In that case, there can be no complaints if a bus outside that 11 has to be used and does not display blinds. Operating buses is a business not a charity ... you don't get what you don't pay for.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 9:43:18 GMT
That wouldn't be viewed as a necessity so wouldn't be costed in. Remember there has been a lot of downward pressure on contract prices recently. Although I certainly agree that it is a lose/lose for blinds. In that case, there can be no complaints if a bus outside that 11 has to be used and does not display blinds. Operating buses is a business not a charity ... you don't get what you don't pay for. That would be the operator's fault as TfL would say we also paid for the spare buses to be fitted with blinds so you should have the buses available. Although not always logical, their reasoning is always looking at reducing cost and fining operators.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 4, 2020 10:04:55 GMT
In that case, there can be no complaints if a bus outside that 11 has to be used and does not display blinds. Operating buses is a business not a charity ... you don't get what you don't pay for. That would be the operator's fault as TfL would say we also paid for the spare buses to be fitted with blinds so you should have the buses available. Although not always logical, their reasoning is always looking at reducing cost and fining operators. Hang on, you just said TfL don't pay for spare buses? They either get paid for or they don't.
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Post by TB123 on Jun 4, 2020 10:06:55 GMT
That would be the operator's fault as TfL would say we also paid for the spare buses to be fitted with blinds so you should have the buses available. Although not always logical, their reasoning is always looking at reducing cost and fining operators. Hang on, you just said TfL don't pay for spare buses? They either get paid for or they don't. I think you've picked the wrong person to argue with given the OP is an experienced bus professional who knows their stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 10:08:05 GMT
That would be the operator's fault as TfL would say we also paid for the spare buses to be fitted with blinds so you should have the buses available. Although not always logical, their reasoning is always looking at reducing cost and fining operators. Hang on, you just said TfL don't pay for spare buses? They either get paid for or they don't. They pay for the allocated spares. Each route will have a contingent of spare buses allocated to it (so if the 405 has a pvr of 11 it will have 12 buses in total (1 spare bus allocated to it)). All costs associated with the spare buses allocated to the route would be costed. Any buses allocated to other routes at the garage would not be.
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