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Post by N230UD on Jun 9, 2020 19:15:38 GMT
I also agree that the statue should have been removed years ago by democratic process. However, people have been campaigning for years to get the statue removed. I can understand why the statue was targeted considering nothing was being done about it. And judging by the rest of your post, it seems you yourself has an agenda.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 9, 2020 19:42:19 GMT
I also agree that the statue should have been removed years ago by democratic process. However, people have been campaigning for years to get the statue removed. I can understand why the statue was targeted considering nothing was being done about it. And judging by the rest of your post, it seems you yourself has an agenda. I wasn't even aware of the statue but it seems the reaction from locals has been mixed...... history is what it is. I genuinely cannot understand BLM's apparent silence about the murder of David Dorn.
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Post by N230UD on Jun 9, 2020 20:02:21 GMT
I also agree that the statue should have been removed years ago by democratic process. However, people have been campaigning for years to get the statue removed. I can understand why the statue was targeted considering nothing was being done about it. And judging by the rest of your post, it seems you yourself has an agenda. I wasn't even aware of the statue but it seems the reaction from locals has been mixed...... history is what it is. I genuinely cannot understand BLM's apparent silence about the murder of David Dorn. I wasn't aware of the statue either, and thousands are now aware of it - which shows how effective this particular protest was, whether you agree with how it was removed or not (and I don't particularly agree with removing things in such a way). I suppose a bit of a comparison is some of the Eastern European countries, which have mostly removed all the Soviet era statues. They don't want to be reminded every day of a dark past - but they have plenty of museums about their past where many can learn about it.
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Post by busman on Jun 10, 2020 8:47:08 GMT
I also agree that the statue should have been removed years ago by democratic process. However, people have been campaigning for years to get the statue removed. I can understand why the statue was targeted considering nothing was being done about it. And judging by the rest of your post, it seems you yourself has an agenda. I wasn't even aware of the statue but it seems the reaction from locals has been mixed...... history is what it is. I genuinely cannot understand BLM's apparent silence about the murder of David Dorn. It’s not that hard to understand when we look closely at the history of BLM. BLM was formed in the aftermath of the murder of Trayvon Martin. It stands in opposition to racism against black people. Was David Dorn’s murder a result of his race? Would he have been treated differently if he was a white police officer? The answer is no, to both those questions. Therefore it most certainly doesn’t fit into the struggle that BLM is campaigning for. Some commentators have failed to distinguish between the purpose of BLM and the name of the organisation. Most people can be forgiven for this - this kind of misunderstanding is why companies spend millions of pounds creating brands that fit a certain image and convey certain qualities about the organisation. However the name BLM, which was borne out of a social media campaign, can easily be taken out of context. So instead of focussing on what BLM actually campaigns for, many people instead focus on the “narrative”, i.e. the statement itself that “Black Lives Matter”. Don’t all lives matter? What about white people, other deaths of black people, asian people Blah blah ad nauseum. Yes, all lives matter. Full stop. But BLM is about shining a spotlight on racism against black people. I’m not saying BLM is perfect. Don’t get me started on the whole abolition/defunding of the police thing, but as a campaigning vehicle against racism and giving a voice to black people affected by racism, I would say they have done an excellent job in America by turning up the heat on police and others who indulge in racist behaviour.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 10, 2020 9:17:43 GMT
I wasn't even aware of the statue but it seems the reaction from locals has been mixed...... history is what it is. I genuinely cannot understand BLM's apparent silence about the murder of David Dorn. It’s not that hard to understand when we look closely at the history of BLM. BLM was formed in the aftermath of the murder of Trayvon Martin. It stands in opposition to racism against black people. Was David Dorn’s murder a result of his race? Would he have been treated differently if he was a white police officer? The answer is no, to both those questions. Therefore it most certainly doesn’t fit into the struggle that BLM is campaigning for. Some commentators have failed to distinguish between the purpose of BLM and the name of the organisation. Most people can be forgiven for this - this kind of misunderstanding is why companies spend millions of pounds creating brands that fit a certain image and convey certain qualities about the organisation. However the name BLM, which was borne out of a social media campaign, can easily be taken out of context. So instead of focussing on what BLM actually campaigns for, many people instead focus on the “narrative”, i.e. the statement itself that “Black Lives Matter”. Don’t all lives matter? What about white people, other deaths of black people, asian people Blah blah ad nauseum. Yes, all lives matter. Full stop. But BLM is about shining a spotlight on racism against black people. I’m not saying BLM is perfect. Don’t get me started on the whole abolition/defunding of the police thing, but as a campaigning vehicle against racism and giving a voice to black people affected by racism, I would say they have done an excellent job in America by turning up the heat on police and others who indulge in racist behaviour. Whatever way I look at it I just cannot get my head around the idea that the murder of David Dorn is somehow less important than that of George Floyd.
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Post by wirewiper on Jun 10, 2020 9:24:29 GMT
It’s not that hard to understand when we look closely at the history of BLM. BLM was formed in the aftermath of the murder of Trayvon Martin. It stands in opposition to racism against black people. Was David Dorn’s murder a result of his race? Would he have been treated differently if he was a white police officer? The answer is no, to both those questions. Therefore it most certainly doesn’t fit into the struggle that BLM is campaigning for. Some commentators have failed to distinguish between the purpose of BLM and the name of the organisation. Most people can be forgiven for this - this kind of misunderstanding is why companies spend millions of pounds creating brands that fit a certain image and convey certain qualities about the organisation. However the name BLM, which was borne out of a social media campaign, can easily be taken out of context. So instead of focussing on what BLM actually campaigns for, many people instead focus on the “narrative”, i.e. the statement itself that “Black Lives Matter”. Don’t all lives matter? What about white people, other deaths of black people, asian people Blah blah ad nauseum. Yes, all lives matter. Full stop. But BLM is about shining a spotlight on racism against black people. I’m not saying BLM is perfect. Don’t get me started on the whole abolition/defunding of the police thing, but as a campaigning vehicle against racism and giving a voice to black people affected by racism, I would say they have done an excellent job in America by turning up the heat on police and others who indulge in racist behaviour. Whatever way I look at it I just cannot get my head around the idea that the murder of David Dorn is somehow less important than that of George Floyd. One is not less important than the other. They are different issues. I would also point out that BLM is a grassroots protest movement, not an organisation, so does not have policies and spokespersons.
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Post by busman on Jun 10, 2020 16:46:45 GMT
It’s not that hard to understand when we look closely at the history of BLM. BLM was formed in the aftermath of the murder of Trayvon Martin. It stands in opposition to racism against black people. Was David Dorn’s murder a result of his race? Would he have been treated differently if he was a white police officer? The answer is no, to both those questions. Therefore it most certainly doesn’t fit into the struggle that BLM is campaigning for. Some commentators have failed to distinguish between the purpose of BLM and the name of the organisation. Most people can be forgiven for this - this kind of misunderstanding is why companies spend millions of pounds creating brands that fit a certain image and convey certain qualities about the organisation. However the name BLM, which was borne out of a social media campaign, can easily be taken out of context. So instead of focussing on what BLM actually campaigns for, many people instead focus on the “narrative”, i.e. the statement itself that “Black Lives Matter”. Don’t all lives matter? What about white people, other deaths of black people, asian people Blah blah ad nauseum. Yes, all lives matter. Full stop. But BLM is about shining a spotlight on racism against black people. I’m not saying BLM is perfect. Don’t get me started on the whole abolition/defunding of the police thing, but as a campaigning vehicle against racism and giving a voice to black people affected by racism, I would say they have done an excellent job in America by turning up the heat on police and others who indulge in racist behaviour. Whatever way I look at it I just cannot get my head around the idea that the murder of David Dorn is somehow less important than that of George Floyd. Seriously, read my first post. It’s not a question of saying one life is more important than another. America is the murder capital of the world. It’s the shock about officers of the law committing murder that makes this stand out. Police are among the last people in society one should expect to commit such a crime. If the upholders of the law go around murdering people with impunity, what message does that send to society? I’m not sure why you can’t grasp the difference in significance. Let me frame it another way for you - if members of the public go around committing crime with impunity, what message does that send to society? Answer that and then amplify the impact if upholders of the law can’t obey the law. That’s even before we talk about racism. In fact I would argue that racism is a moot point in the trial of the officers. Second degree murder doesn’t need to have racism as a factor in a conviction. The question about importance of life is an interesting one. I wouldn’t gauge importance of the lives of George Floyd or David Dorn by media coverage, but rather by the weight of justice applied to their murderers. I feel fairly confident that David Dorn’s killer will have justice applied and see adequate jail time. Do I have the same level of confidence about George Floyd’s killers? Judging by past and ongoing trials, no. In the matters of the law and justice everyone should be treated equally, if indeed all life is of equal value and importance.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 10, 2020 17:12:11 GMT
Whatever way I look at it I just cannot get my head around the idea that the murder of David Dorn is somehow less important than that of George Floyd. Seriously, read my first post. It’s not a question of saying one life is more important than another. America is the murder capital of the world. It’s the shock about officers of the law committing murder that makes this stand out. Police are among the last people in society one should expect to commit such a crime. If the upholders of the law go around murdering people with impunity, what message does that send to society? I’m not sure why you can’t grasp the difference in significance. Let me frame it another way for you - if members of the public go around committing crime with impunity, what message does that send to society? Answer that and then amplify the impact if upholders of the law can’t obey the law. That’s even before we talk about racism. In fact I would argue that racism is a moot point in the trial of the officers. Second degree murder doesn’t need to have racism as a factor in a conviction. The question about importance of life is an interesting one. I wouldn’t gauge importance of the lives of George Floyd or David Dorn by media coverage, but rather by the weight of justice applied to their murderers. I feel fairly confident that David Dorn’s killer will have justice applied and see adequate jail time. Do I have the same level of confidence about George Floyd’s killers? Judging by past and ongoing trials, no. In the matters of the law and justice everyone should be treated equally, if indeed all life is of equal value and importance. We're just going over the same thing, if it's only killings committed by white police officers that matter then maybe BLM need to change their name to reflect that? Obviously both murders were shocking and shouldn't have happened.
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Post by wirewiper on Jun 10, 2020 17:41:36 GMT
Seriously, read my first post. It’s not a question of saying one life is more important than another. America is the murder capital of the world. It’s the shock about officers of the law committing murder that makes this stand out. Police are among the last people in society one should expect to commit such a crime. If the upholders of the law go around murdering people with impunity, what message does that send to society? I’m not sure why you can’t grasp the difference in significance. Let me frame it another way for you - if members of the public go around committing crime with impunity, what message does that send to society? Answer that and then amplify the impact if upholders of the law can’t obey the law. That’s even before we talk about racism. In fact I would argue that racism is a moot point in the trial of the officers. Second degree murder doesn’t need to have racism as a factor in a conviction. The question about importance of life is an interesting one. I wouldn’t gauge importance of the lives of George Floyd or David Dorn by media coverage, but rather by the weight of justice applied to their murderers. I feel fairly confident that David Dorn’s killer will have justice applied and see adequate jail time. Do I have the same level of confidence about George Floyd’s killers? Judging by past and ongoing trials, no. In the matters of the law and justice everyone should be treated equally, if indeed all life is of equal value and importance. We're just going over the same thing, if it's only killings committed by white police officers that matter then maybe BLM need to change their name to reflect that? Obviously both murders were shocking and shouldn't have happened. Where did busman say that it's only killings committed by white officers that matter? If you don't want to keep going over the same thing, post a response that is thoughtful and original and will move the discussion on. Note: text in bold was edited before I knew the original wording had been quoted in the response below.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 10, 2020 17:44:12 GMT
We're just going over the same thing, if it's only killings committed by white police officers that matter then maybe BLM need to change their name to reflect that? Obviously both murders were shocking and shouldn't have happened. Where did busman say that it's only killings committed by white officers that matter? If you don't want to keep going over the same thing, post a response that is thoughtful and original, rather than knee-jerk and repetitive. Well.... Black lives matter...... but the death of David Dorn doesn't. I can't spell it out any clearer than that.
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Post by busman on Jun 10, 2020 19:20:54 GMT
Where/when did I say that? I think you are seeing what you want to believe I said. Anyway, I think we can agree that we see things differently and there is nothing wrong with that at all!
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Post by greenboy on Jun 10, 2020 19:29:22 GMT
Where/when did I say that? I think you are seeing what you want to believe I said. Anyway, I think we can agree that we see things differently and there is nothing wrong with that at all! Just to clarify I wasn't saying you had said that more that's what BLM seem to be saying....... anyway yes we do all see things differently so best to just agree to disagree on certain subjects.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 10, 2020 23:06:05 GMT
Whatever way I look at it I just cannot get my head around the idea that the murder of David Dorn is somehow less important than that of George Floyd. Seriously, read my first post. It’s not a question of saying one life is more important than another. America is the murder capital of the world. It’s the shock about officers of the law committing murder that makes this stand out. Police are among the last people in society one should expect to commit such a crime. If the upholders of the law go around murdering people with impunity, what message does that send to society? I’m not sure why you can’t grasp the difference in significance. Let me frame it another way for you - if members of the public go around committing crime with impunity, what message does that send to society? Answer that and then amplify the impact if upholders of the law can’t obey the law. That’s even before we talk about racism. In fact I would argue that racism is a moot point in the trial of the officers. Second degree murder doesn’t need to have racism as a factor in a conviction. The question about importance of life is an interesting one. I wouldn’t gauge importance of the lives of George Floyd or David Dorn by media coverage, but rather by the weight of justice applied to their murderers. I feel fairly confident that David Dorn’s killer will have justice applied and see adequate jail time. Do I have the same level of confidence about George Floyd’s killers? Judging by past and ongoing trials, no. In the matters of the law and justice everyone should be treated equally, if indeed all life is of equal value and importance. Well said, the fact that the officers were fired almost instantly but it took days before they were even arrested or any charges bought shows about justice of actions of the police in the states. I am sure the murderer of David Dorn would be arrested and be sent to jail for life WITHOUT parole. If the officers that killed George was not filmed, they probably would not have been fired let alone be arrested. When we had the murder of Jean Charles De Menenses on the Underground, it is near as bad because someone made a stupid error of judgement and it took a lot of campaigning to highlight about what the police done. If that was in the USA they probably would have got away without any public scrutiny whatsoever.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 10, 2020 23:09:11 GMT
Seriously, read my first post. It’s not a question of saying one life is more important than another. America is the murder capital of the world. It’s the shock about officers of the law committing murder that makes this stand out. Police are among the last people in society one should expect to commit such a crime. If the upholders of the law go around murdering people with impunity, what message does that send to society? I’m not sure why you can’t grasp the difference in significance. Let me frame it another way for you - if members of the public go around committing crime with impunity, what message does that send to society? Answer that and then amplify the impact if upholders of the law can’t obey the law. That’s even before we talk about racism. In fact I would argue that racism is a moot point in the trial of the officers. Second degree murder doesn’t need to have racism as a factor in a conviction. The question about importance of life is an interesting one. I wouldn’t gauge importance of the lives of George Floyd or David Dorn by media coverage, but rather by the weight of justice applied to their murderers. I feel fairly confident that David Dorn’s killer will have justice applied and see adequate jail time. Do I have the same level of confidence about George Floyd’s killers? Judging by past and ongoing trials, no. In the matters of the law and justice everyone should be treated equally, if indeed all life is of equal value and importance. We're just going over the same thing, if it's only killings committed by white police officers that matter then maybe BLM need to change their name to reflect that? Obviously both murders were shocking and shouldn't have happened. But if there was killing by black police officers they would be saying the same thing. I do not think you realise, but everything you are saying is coming across as being racist whether you realise it or not. It isn't even a matter of devils advocate, it is everything I have been seeing on many websites spouted out by racists over the past few weeks.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 11, 2020 5:31:17 GMT
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