Demand Responsive Travel: Where it could be introduced

[LondonNorthern]

Where do you all think DRT could be introduced in London and what routes could it potentially replace?

[rif153]

I've always thought that its a shame buses can't go over the bridge at Windmill Lane which is sadly too weak, of course this means that reaching the Osterley area from Southall is very difficult if you don't have a car. I've often thought that demand responsive bus services would be perfect for cut off areas, especially ones which buses can't reach. The infrequent H28 may work better as demand responsive as whilst it does serve useful destinations such as Osterley Tesco, West Middlesex Hospital, Osterley Park, Hounslow East station, Hounslow town centre and Bulls Bridge Tesco, the circuitous route it takes if you wanted to get from Busch Corner to Osterley Park for instance is quite unattractive and the route runs at a poor frequency.

[Deleted]

Jul 13, 2020 18:19:51 GMT LondonNorthern said:

Where do you all think DRT could be introduced in London and what routes could it potentially replace?

Route 549 perhaps?  Not sure what the usage is like and it only runs hourly(Ish) 

[vjaska]

Jul 13, 2020 18:57:20 GMT rif153 said:

I've always thought that its a shame buses can't go over the bridge at Windmill Lane which is sadly too weak, of course this means that reaching the Osterley area from Southall is very difficult if you don't have a car. I've often thought that demand responsive bus services would be perfect for cut off areas, especially ones which buses can't reach. The infrequent H28 may work better as demand responsive as whilst it does serve useful destinations such as Osterley Tesco, West Middlesex Hospital, Osterley Park, Hounslow East station, Hounslow town centre and Bulls Bridge Tesco, the circuitous route it takes if you wanted to get from Busch Corner to Osterley Park for instance is quite unattractive and the route runs at a poor frequency.

Yes, I too think that’s what they should be introduced to, serving areas that buses can’t get to either because it’s not viable or it’s difficult to access. I wouldn’t convert any current route personally.

[LondonNorthern]

I'll say where I'm at. I think a very good description of DRT could be "serving underserved areas where bus use is not prominent and in areas where a regular bus timetable may not be able to work."

I have thought of numerous areas where this could work:

- DRT units could replace Routes R5, R8 & R10 and have one massive area where it's all DRT.

- DRT units could replace Routes H2 & H3, with Route 631 keeping its current form and maybe having school journeys to East Finchley Station and turning around in the car park in replacement of the H2.

- As people have stated, Windmill Lane

- Hadley Wood, Hadley Green, Kitts End, Dancers Hill could all become DRT, with Route 399 withdrawn. Route 389 could then also become DRT, but with maybe 1 response unit and Barnet Lane, Mays Lane West & Dollis Valley Estate could become DRT with the 326 rerouted to no longer serve the Estate.

- Nethern-on-the-Hill

- The 379 could become demand responsive purely based off residents concerns

[vjaska]

Jul 13, 2020 19:56:42 GMT LondonNorthern said:

I'll say where I'm at. I think a very good description of DRT could be "serving underserved areas where bus use is not prominent and in areas where a regular bus timetable may not be able to work."

I have thought of numerous areas where this could work:

- DRT units could replace Routes R5, R8 & R10 and have one massive area where it's all DRT.

- DRT units could replace Routes H2 & H3, with Route 631 keeping its current form and maybe having school journeys to East Finchley Station and turning around in the car park in replacement of the H2.

- As people have stated, Windmill Lane

- Hadley Wood, Hadley Green, Kitts End, Dancers Hill could all become DRT, with Route 399 withdrawn. Route 389 could then also become DRT, but with maybe 1 response unit and Barnet Lane, Mays Lane West & Dollis Valley Estate could become DRT with the 326 rerouted to no longer serve the Estate.

- Nethern-on-the-Hill

- The 379 could become demand responsive purely based off residents concerns

Whilst the H3 is hourly & only runs between morning and afternoon Monday-Saturday, the H2 is every 12 minutes daily but even then, both routes are used greatly so why suddenly switch them to DRT? The same point applies to the 379 - another route that runs daily at every 15 minutes and has very good loadings. Now you see why I'd rather it be used to access harder to reach areas instead of simply trying to replace existing routes - that way, instead of throwing money converting an existing route, money can be prioritised at unlocking these ares and bringing them into the TfL network.

I'll give you another example, one very near me - a few years back, there was a proposal for the 315 to changed in the West Norwood area by diverting at Robson Road, down to Croxted Road, down to Thurlow Park Road and then into the Peabody Estate which is located at the top of two different steep hills making life particularly difficult for elderly and disabled people but the locals didn't want full size buses due to a myriad of concerns (some possibly sensible, others quite daft) and some actually orchestrated a campaign to not have the route extended at all - daft when you consider the very high dependency on the bus in Lambeth. I believe in the end they got their own minibus service or asked for funding but if not, it's a ideal opportunity for DRT given minibuses are smaller and wouldn't need to stand which was a an issue raised by residents although a route test performed by a 8.8m bus did pass - www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/266024/response/659194/attach/html/3/Peabody%20Estate%20route%20test.doc.html

The consultation report is here if your interested - consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-315/results/consultation-report-315.pdf

[danorak]

It will be interesting to see what evidence was produced by the Sutton trial (the Ealing one probably didn't last long enough).

It's hard to see a role for DRT in London, given the existing frequency and density of services. Some of the R-routes as mentioned already might be good candidates, particularly if linking into trunk routes. You might encourage travel to Knockholt station in the peaks rather than Orpington.

[Deleted]

The Slide op in Ealing was gaining passengers before covid hit. There is no reason why they can’t be reinstated now.

[LondonNorthern]

Jul 13, 2020 22:46:51 GMT vjaska said:

Jul 13, 2020 19:56:42 GMT LondonNorthern said:

I'll say where I'm at. I think a very good description of DRT could be "serving underserved areas where bus use is not prominent and in areas where a regular bus timetable may not be able to work."

I have thought of numerous areas where this could work:

- DRT units could replace Routes R5, R8 & R10 and have one massive area where it's all DRT.

- DRT units could replace Routes H2 & H3, with Route 631 keeping its current form and maybe having school journeys to East Finchley Station and turning around in the car park in replacement of the H2.

- As people have stated, Windmill Lane

- Hadley Wood, Hadley Green, Kitts End, Dancers Hill could all become DRT, with Route 399 withdrawn. Route 389 could then also become DRT, but with maybe 1 response unit and Barnet Lane, Mays Lane West & Dollis Valley Estate could become DRT with the 326 rerouted to no longer serve the Estate.

- Nethern-on-the-Hill

- The 379 could become demand responsive purely based off residents concerns

Whilst the H3 is hourly & only runs between morning and afternoon Monday-Saturday, the H2 is every 12 minutes daily but even then, both routes are used greatly so why suddenly switch them to DRT? The same point applies to the 379 - another route that runs daily at every 15 minutes and has very good loadings. Now you see why I'd rather it be used to access harder to reach areas instead of simply trying to replace existing routes - that way, instead of throwing money converting an existing route, money can be prioritised at unlocking these ares and bringing them into the TfL network.

I'll give you another example, one very near me - a few years back, there was a proposal for the 315 to changed in the West Norwood area by diverting at Robson Road, down to Croxted Road, down to Thurlow Park Road and then into the Peabody Estate which is located at the top of two different steep hills making life particularly difficult for elderly and disabled people but the locals didn't want full size buses due to a myriad of concerns (some possibly sensible, others quite daft) and some actually orchestrated a campaign to not have the route extended at all - daft when you consider the very high dependency on the bus in Lambeth. I believe in the end they got their own minibus service or asked for funding but if not, it's a ideal opportunity for DRT given minibuses are smaller and wouldn't need to stand which was a an issue raised by residents although a route test performed by a 8.8m bus did pass - www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/266024/response/659194/attach/html/3/Peabody%20Estate%20route%20test.doc.html

The consultation report is here if your interested - consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-315/results/consultation-report-315.pdf

379 residents (well some) have not liked having buses going down their roads, some say it shakes their houses, too loud etc, I think there was a news article. As for the H2/3 I suppose you are right.

[LondonNorthern]

Jul 13, 2020 19:03:56 GMT @dannyb said:

Jul 13, 2020 18:19:51 GMT LondonNorthern said:

Where do you all think DRT could be introduced in London and what routes could it potentially replace?

Route 549 perhaps?  Not sure what the usage is like and it only runs hourly(Ish) 

The 549 would be good not only because of the fact it has a low frequency but the roads surrounding it could be incorporated into a zone

[rif153]

Jul 14, 2020 4:30:33 GMT @rob said:

The Slide op in Ealing was gaining passengers before covid hit. There is no reason why they can’t be reinstated now.

I think its really sad that its been stopped, I guess partly due to TfL not having the money to run it. Even though the mini buses are quite small which would make social distancing difficult you could instead make face coverings compulsory and then there'd be no need. 

[busman]

I don’t see DRT replacing many services in the current climate versus the alternative option to withdraw a route completely.

I feel that DRT should be used to induce and measure demand in underserved places. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I think a good deployment of DRT would be to assist with bus route planning. DRT could be trialled along proposed routes for a limited period of time before making a decision whether or not to commit (use it or lose it). Bookings and loadings could be carefully monitored to determine: if there is sufficient demand to introduce a permanent route; what route variations are most popular; potential stop locations; when the service should run; and what frequency the service should run. To keep costs low, a single app and telephone number that can be repurposed for each different route, along with a long term lease of vehicles over a mayoral term that can be used for each trial.

An example in my area could be the Bexley Council subsidised service 938 between Erith & Bexleyheath (missing from londonbusroutes.net for some reason!). Would this route be well used if a service was run on more days of the week? Could this route fill some gaps in underserved parts of Belvedere and the industrial estate? Is the route more popular if it stops within retail parks rather than on a busy adjacent road? We don’t know, but a trial of DRT could help to answer those questions.

The end of the trial would result in either the new route being established, an existing service being adjusted or the route not going ahead with money spent on permanent infrastructure or tendering.

[LondonNorthern]

Jul 14, 2020 10:09:11 GMT busman said:

I don’t see DRT replacing many services in the current climate versus the alternative option to withdraw a route completely.

I feel that DRT should be used to induce and measure demand in underserved places. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I think a good deployment of DRT would be to assist with bus route planning. DRT could be trialled along proposed routes for a limited period of time before making a decision whether or not to commit (use it or lose it). Bookings and loadings could be carefully monitored to determine: if there is sufficient demand to introduce a permanent route; what route variations are most popular; potential stop locations; when the service should run; and what frequency the service should run. To keep costs low, a single app and telephone number that can be repurposed for each different route, along with a long term lease of vehicles over a mayoral term that can be used for each trial.

An example in my area could be the Bexley Council subsidised service 938 between Erith & Bexleyheath (missing from londonbusroutes.net for some reason!). Would this route be well used if a service was run on more days of the week? Could this route fill some gaps in underserved parts of Belvedere and the industrial estate? Is the route more popular if it stops within retail parks rather than on a busy adjacent road? We don’t know, but a trial of DRT could help .to answer those questions.

The end of the trial would result in either the new route being established, an existing service being adjusted or the route not going ahead with money spent on permanent infrastructure or tendering.

Though you must remember that a lot of the routes that are being replaced are those that see incredibly minute amounts of patronage.

Lots of areas currently served by these least used routes are areas not unserved by public transport, but very underserved and a lot of these areas are those that have the more upper class.

If we introduce a system where people can book where they want to go without needing to wait ah hour for 389 or 399, or wait for a very indirect R8, people will see PT as a good idea.

In a lot of cases, particularly the Hadley Wood problem, it serves many new hamlets and gives Hadley Green a bus service as well as giving buses to Dancers Hill, Kitts End & more of Hadley Wood.

In the same case as the R5/8/10, it would now serve rural housing not near the routes and serve new areas such as Badgers Mount and Knockholt Station and gives passengers more customisation.

There are some routes that Because of how little areas they serve or what people's preferred modes of transport are, if they don't want to wait 75 minutes for an indirect R5/10, they won't. We have to work with the local communities to get people out of their cars and onto public transport and introducing bus lanes would make it all the more easier to get about on a bus. A fast and reliable service from your phone. What's not to love?

[vjaska]

Jul 14, 2020 6:55:19 GMT LondonNorthern said:

Jul 13, 2020 22:46:51 GMT vjaska said:

Whilst the H3 is hourly & only runs between morning and afternoon Monday-Saturday, the H2 is every 12 minutes daily but even then, both routes are used greatly so why suddenly switch them to DRT? The same point applies to the 379 - another route that runs daily at every 15 minutes and has very good loadings. Now you see why I'd rather it be used to access harder to reach areas instead of simply trying to replace existing routes - that way, instead of throwing money converting an existing route, money can be prioritised at unlocking these ares and bringing them into the TfL network.

I'll give you another example, one very near me - a few years back, there was a proposal for the 315 to changed in the West Norwood area by diverting at Robson Road, down to Croxted Road, down to Thurlow Park Road and then into the Peabody Estate which is located at the top of two different steep hills making life particularly difficult for elderly and disabled people but the locals didn't want full size buses due to a myriad of concerns (some possibly sensible, others quite daft) and some actually orchestrated a campaign to not have the route extended at all - daft when you consider the very high dependency on the bus in Lambeth. I believe in the end they got their own minibus service or asked for funding but if not, it's a ideal opportunity for DRT given minibuses are smaller and wouldn't need to stand which was a an issue raised by residents although a route test performed by a 8.8m bus did pass - www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/266024/response/659194/attach/html/3/Peabody%20Estate%20route%20test.doc.html

The consultation report is here if your interested - consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/route-315/results/consultation-report-315.pdf

379 residents (well some) have not liked having buses going down their roads, some say it shakes their houses, too loud etc, I think there was a news article. As for the H2/3 I suppose you are right.

I've managed to find the article and I find it hilarious that someone is blaming the buses for allegedly shaking their house - we had this nonsense before in Charlton when there was sinkhole and residents tried to blame buses as the cause. He also says buses have been speeding but also says the road is quite narrow - having looked on Google Maps, it's wider than I expected and can easily fit buses down it so a bus could get up to some speed but I doubt it's a regular occurrence if it does happen. Personally, sounds like the usual nimby comments.

[barrypotter]

Jul 14, 2020 10:44:41 GMT vjaska said:

Jul 14, 2020 6:55:19 GMT LondonNorthern said:

379 residents (well some) have not liked having buses going down their roads, some say it shakes their houses, too loud etc, I think there was a news article. As for the H2/3 I suppose you are right.

I've managed to find the article and I find it hilarious that someone is blaming the buses for allegedly shaking their house - we had this nonsense before in Charlton when there was sinkhole and residents tried to blame buses as the cause. He also says buses have been speeding but also says the road is quite narrow - having looked on Google Maps, it's wider than I expected and can easily fit buses down it so a bus could get up to some speed but I doubt it's a regular occurrence if it does happen. Personally, sounds like the usual nimby comments.

The W5 had the same complaints on Uplands Road which for buses is one way downhill. Continual complaints about speeding buses shaking the houses, and residents pretending they were clocking the speed. Right enough, some drivers were speeding (20 zone), when the company checked, but it was never likely that the Solos were damaging the fabric of the buildings.