The proposed Fleet/River line & DLR

[route53]

Looking at the old proposals for the Fleet/River line (now Jubilee line) wouldn’t you agree that the DLR pretty much is achieved the original aims of those proposals?

It achieved the Fleet line idea of extending down to Lewisham and the River line idea of extending to Beckton & Woolwich and in a few years time Thamesmead

Had either or both been built would we have seen the DLR on the tube map at all?

[Catford94]

To some extent, any public transport improvements for Thamesmead are on the list of things I'll believe when I see - even the 'Greenwich Waterfront Transit' scheme that started being planned around 2000 as light rail, then as trolleybus, then as fancy buses, never happened.

I think it's fair to say that the DLR wouldn't have developed as it has if the Fleet / River / Thames line had happened.

The most obvious gap in the Fleet / River Line proposal is the north-south link from Lewisham - Isle of Dogs - Stratford. I'm not sure how much of the closed North Greenwich* railway branch was still in existence in the 70s and could have either formed part of an alternative DLR model or along with the North London Line to North Woolwich could have become something akin to today's Overground.

* - North Greenwich as in the station at the southern edge of the Isle of Dogs, not the current Jubilee Line station on the East Greenwich peninsula...

Inclined to think a smaller scale DLR would probably have happened, but closer to the light rail concept than the near enough full scale metro that the DLR 'toy train set' of 1987 has evolved in to...

Of course there are all manner of other 'what if' questions including alternative ways that 'Docklands' could have been re-developed, which bits of it, and how and at what times, whether the 'dome' had been done somewhere else or not at all, which route had been chosen for the Channel Tunnel rail link (at the time the DLR opened, the route under SE London was still under serious consideration, which would have meant Stratford International wouldn't have been there), choice of site for the Olympics, and so on.

[wirewiper]

The original DLR (Island Gardens to Tower Gateway and Stratford) was able to make use of much former rail infrastructure including sections of the North Greenwich route, namely Stepney East (now Limehouse) to Poplar and Crossharbour to Island Gardens After Mudchute there was a single-line section over a former railway viaduct before reaching the original Island Gardens terminus. Poplar Station and Depot were built on the site of a former goods depot. The new line was able however to take advantage of the redevelopment of Canary Wharf, and ran on a new alignment between Poplar and Crossharbour to serve better the original planned redevelopment area.

The route from Poplar to Bow Church was also on a redundant railway alignment, the 1850 Birmingham Junction and East & West India Docks Railway (which soon became the North London Railway). It lost its passenger services east of Dalston in 1944 after bombing and depopulation of the East End. Passenger services returned to part of the route when the North Woolwich-Stratford service was extended to Camden Road in 1979, but the Poplar route remained unserved by passenger trains and its freight traffic had pretty much died out by the 1970s although formal closure did not take place until 1984.

One proposal for the Stratford branch was not to run to Stratford at all, but to come up on to Bow Road at Bow Church and run on-street to Mile End Station. Needless to say the authorities were not keen on this - bear in mind the only regular street-running rail vehicles in the UK at the time were the Blackpool Trams - and the decision to adopt third-rail electric traction killed off the idea. 

[thekbq14]

This is a good question, I'd say somewhat parts of the fleet line there hasn't been any changes however everywhere but Thamesmead has now being connected up with a station for example Hayes to Lewisham which is still on the NR with Southeastern, this has been poised to go to the Bakerloo line at some point but may not happen as Bromley Council and locals don't want this to happen as they want their local straight direct train to London Bridge and Charing Cross but not connected to to other parts of London and have faster frequency in exchange for what 2 coaches? The Addiscombe to Elmers End part is now on the Tramlink linking Elmers End to Addiscombe (now a different station to the one back then and closer to the main Addiscombe shopping district) to Wimbledon and Croydon giving a faster route to Croydon which is an important district in this part of London and beyond to Wimbledon giving a Southeastern to South West link literally, this however might change with the Thameslink 2 proposal from Croydon to Stratford via Lewisham which might affect the DLR possibly as well although I'm not sure about that. However New Cross/New Cross Gate, where it connects with the East London line which itself has links to the DLR, to Lewisham will get connected up via the same Bakerloo line extension previously on the fleet line proposal. Then obviously the Charing Cross Part now disconnected from the rest of the Fleet/Jubilee line might actually go to the DLR one day and be used as a West End terminus for it. This could include proposed Aldwych which although now not a station, the station still exists in a abandoned form similar to Charing Cross being used for films and Ludgate Circus/City Thameslink which has been safeguarded a route to go East to West this can link it to Tower Hill/Gateway or Bank connecting the DLR with the West End as well as just the city.

Now with the current Jubilee line, it can be argued that this already does the fleet line jobs to a certain extent but at a very much more streamlined rate as the Stanmore to Green Line, old Bakerloo and Met section as it connects the Docks and parts of East London to Central London whilst regenerating the area and creating hubs at places like Canada Water, Canary Wharf, North Greenwich, Canning Town and Stratford which except for Stratford were previous working class areas and places in London that had poor links to Central London, with them being former docking areas as well. The Jubilee covers a lot of the former South East London Docks whilst East London is DLR which also uses a lot of the old railway lines in the area compared to Jubilee which is mostly new. Only thing missing is a safeguarded route from North Greenwich to Thamesmead although this possibly will be replaced by the overground and DLR extensions we should wait and see till this happens like another said as this has been on the cards for years. For this part of the route if ever done which especially Jubilee line I'm doubtful an extension via Charlton Riverside and Thames Barrier will be interesting keeping with the river theme of this route. The fleet line also misses out at St Katherine's Dock which would of been interesting to see a route serve there but will this be too close to Tower Hill/Tower Gateway to be successful?

Where the DLR comes in is that it fills in the gaps of the Jubilee line almost a feeder if this was done first I would of said this would of been a genius idea however the DLR was done first and Jubilee extension only happened from them learning the mistakes of the DLR which was almost like the guinea pig for transport routes in this area as the LDCC wasn't sure at the time and didn't want to spend much money to what was a risk at the time, they went around this by using old lines. Where the DLR went wrong was the size of the platforms and trains as even now they're too small for the capacity needed for them and the fact it serves a lot more local stops, which although slower passengers can be seen as positive as it links more places and communities together and better then buses used and feeds them on to the bigger Jubilee line. Also feeds the gap off the Beckton extension giving this area links to Central London and linking the rest of the former docks in London as far as Woolwich, even the North Woolwich to Woolwich link and a London City Airport route is very helpful replacing the previously underused and underappreciated Silverlink North London line trains giving a more reliable quicker and local service for this part of London and also still serving Stratford and Silvertown but new links to Central London as well.

So overall to answer your question in certain cases it definitely has as all of these places on the fleet line now have links to Central London and it has created links and opportunities in this part of London. Saying that I believe if the fleet line was built straight away things in London would be different, there'd be no East London Line, no DLR, no Tramlink which are all now important routes which have helped shaped that part of London which has changed magnificently and may be different to the way it is now. These routes have also created more local links not just to central London but an east north to south in Lewisham to Stratford via Canary Wharf and Deptford unlike the 108 in Blackheath and North Greenwich and more reliable too and faster. But I wouldn't just say the DLR replaced the fleet line or jubilee line replaced the fleet line, I'd say the fleet line still "exists" but has just been broken up served in sizeable local chunks instead.