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Post by greenboy on Dec 9, 2020 18:47:40 GMT
Yes E1 and E3 downgraded to minibuses. Thankfully fads for smaller buses seem to be over now. Well they did the job....... the higher frequencies attracted more users which subsequently lead to a return to double deckers at a higher frequency than before. |
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Post by greenboy on Dec 9, 2020 18:51:51 GMT
Bexley changes were huge, it made Kingston's look like a tea party.... I remember heading over that way to try it out. The highlight was ride on a packed LS on the 422. It was horrible. Just as horrible as seeing some nearly new C reg M’s departing Norbiton’s routes and replaced by relicensed DM’s from the training fleet. Scandalous. Single deckers on the 422 attracted a lot of complaints, they couldn't cope with the peak hour loadings to and from Woolwich Arsenal. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 19:16:34 GMT
Yes E1 and E3 downgraded to minibuses. Thankfully fads for smaller buses seem to be over now. Well they did the job....... the higher frequencies attracted more users which subsequently lead to a return to double deckers at a higher frequency than before. Absolutely agree. It was the type of “bus” Centrewest used which was silly. London United opted for purpose built buses like the DT and DR. I know Centrewest finally went with DWL’s but only after was could be argued as the worst bread van in existence, the RW. I didn’t mind the MAs but blimey if you sat at the back, you needed a crash helmet. Roundabout used the Ivecos and a handful of Optare’s which were nice. Latterly using DT’s, some of which ended up at AV and FW on their Harrier routes. DT29 was my favourite. Lovely bus. |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 9, 2020 23:56:15 GMT
Well they did the job....... the higher frequencies attracted more users which subsequently lead to a return to double deckers at a higher frequency than before. Absolutely agree. It was the type of “bus” Centrewest used which was silly. London United opted for purpose built buses like the DT and DR. I know Centrewest finally went with DWL’s but only after was could be argued as the worst bread van in existence, the RW. I didn’t mind the MAs but blimey if you sat at the back, you needed a crash helmet. Roundabout used the Ivecos and a handful of Optare’s which were nice. Latterly using DT’s, some of which ended up at AV and FW on their Harrier routes. DT29 was my favourite. Lovely bus. The thing is these frequencies would of happened in due course as in the TfL years, the investment came along which saw these routes go double deckers in any event and the frequencies would of eventually met the target they originally sat at prior to cuts. |
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Post by redexpress on Dec 10, 2020 6:01:57 GMT
Well they did the job....... the higher frequencies attracted more users which subsequently lead to a return to double deckers at a higher frequency than before. Absolutely agree. It was the type of “bus” Centrewest used which was silly. London United opted for purpose built buses like the DT and DR. I know Centrewest finally went with DWL’s but only after was could be argued as the worst bread van in existence, the RW. I didn’t mind the MAs but blimey if you sat at the back, you needed a crash helmet. Roundabout used the Ivecos and a handful of Optare’s which were nice. Latterly using DT’s, some of which ended up at AV and FW on their Harrier routes. DT29 was my favourite. Lovely bus. Exactly, the dreadful experience of travelling on some of those breadvans was enough to deter those who had been attracted by the increased frequency in the first place!
I'd add that several routes retained single-deckers for far longer than they needed to, notably the 28/31/328. By the 1999 contract renewal passenger numbers had risen enough to warrant double-deckers in my opinion, but they went for Dart SLFs. To make matters worse, Centrewest/First insisted on using 9.4m Darts when longer vehicles could easily fit and would have provided some relief at busy times. Perhaps because of the management view that smaller buses were more manoeuvrable so didn't get held up as much on the twisty bits of route? That was certainly one of the arguments put forward when the routes were orginally converted to breadvans.
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Post by bertrell on Dec 10, 2020 6:53:03 GMT
Absolutely agree. It was the type of “bus” Centrewest used which was silly. London United opted for purpose built buses like the DT and DR. I know Centrewest finally went with DWL’s but only after was could be argued as the worst bread van in existence, the RW. I didn’t mind the MAs but blimey if you sat at the back, you needed a crash helmet. Roundabout used the Ivecos and a handful of Optare’s which were nice. Latterly using DT’s, some of which ended up at AV and FW on their Harrier routes. DT29 was my favourite. Lovely bus. Exactly, the dreadful experience of travelling on some of those breadvans was enough to deter those who had been attracted by the increased frequency in the first place!
I'd add that several routes retained single-deckers for far longer than they needed to, notably the 28/31/328. By the 1999 contract renewal passenger numbers had risen enough to warrant double-deckers in my opinion, but they went for Dart SLFs. To make matters worse, Centrewest/First insisted on using 9.4m Darts when longer vehicles could easily fit and would have provided some relief at busy times. Perhaps because of the management view that smaller buses were more manoeuvrable so didn't get held up as much on the twisty bits of route? That was certainly one of the arguments put forward when the routes were orginally converted to breadvans.
That was the spin out out by Hendy and cutting costs too.. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 7:27:01 GMT
Absolutely agree. It was the type of “bus” Centrewest used which was silly. London United opted for purpose built buses like the DT and DR. I know Centrewest finally went with DWL’s but only after was could be argued as the worst bread van in existence, the RW. I didn’t mind the MAs but blimey if you sat at the back, you needed a crash helmet. Roundabout used the Ivecos and a handful of Optare’s which were nice. Latterly using DT’s, some of which ended up at AV and FW on their Harrier routes. DT29 was my favourite. Lovely bus. Exactly, the dreadful experience of travelling on some of those breadvans was enough to deter those who had been attracted by the increased frequency in the first place!
I'd add that several routes retained single-deckers for far longer than they needed to, notably the 28/31/328. By the 1999 contract renewal passenger numbers had risen enough to warrant double-deckers in my opinion, but they went for Dart SLFs. To make matters worse, Centrewest/First insisted on using 9.4m Darts when longer vehicles could easily fit and would have provided some relief at busy times. Perhaps because of the management view that smaller buses were more manoeuvrable so didn't get held up as much on the twisty bits of route? That was certainly one of the arguments put forward when the routes were orginally converted to breadvans.
I'll never forget the phrase "Stand in comfort'. Unbelievable. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Dec 10, 2020 11:16:33 GMT
Exactly, the dreadful experience of travelling on some of those breadvans was enough to deter those who had been attracted by the increased frequency in the first place! I'd add that several routes retained single-deckers for far longer than they needed to, notably the 28/31/328. By the 1999 contract renewal passenger numbers had risen enough to warrant double-deckers in my opinion, but they went for Dart SLFs. To make matters worse, Centrewest/First insisted on using 9.4m Darts when longer vehicles could easily fit and would have provided some relief at busy times. Perhaps because of the management view that smaller buses were more manoeuvrable so didn't get held up as much on the twisty bits of route? That was certainly one of the arguments put forward when the routes were orginally converted to breadvans.
I'll never forget the phrase "Stand in comfort'. Unbelievable. Yes judging by all the roads they could have taken up to 10.8m SDs in reality. Same with the 49 should never have converted in 1999 to SD |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Dec 10, 2020 14:45:38 GMT
I always assumed the Roundabout project was a success, however the exact opposite was the case with Bexleybus. When the R1-R6 was proposed, was there any other proposals that didn’t happen? I was always intrigued by the first incarnation of the R6, which went out to Sevenoaks, but only lasted about 18 months: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/prefix/r6-1.htmlIt was replaced by Kentish Bus services: roundabout.moonfruit.com/#/roundabout-routes/4526029580Suspect that a decade or so on it might have been nurtured and given a bit more support, when cross-border buses had a bit more support. |
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Post by danorak on Dec 10, 2020 14:58:42 GMT
Absolutely agree. It was the type of “bus” Centrewest used which was silly. London United opted for purpose built buses like the DT and DR. I know Centrewest finally went with DWL’s but only after was could be argued as the worst bread van in existence, the RW. I didn’t mind the MAs but blimey if you sat at the back, you needed a crash helmet. Roundabout used the Ivecos and a handful of Optare’s which were nice. Latterly using DT’s, some of which ended up at AV and FW on their Harrier routes. DT29 was my favourite. Lovely bus. The thing is these frequencies would of happened in due course as in the TfL years, the investment came along which saw these routes go double deckers in any event and the frequencies would of eventually met the target they originally sat at prior to cuts. In fairness though, there's ten years between the 28/31 conversions and TfL coming along. Things were on a tight budget and deregulation in London was still on the cards. I've no doubt Centrewest wanted to convert these routes to OPO but the cost of new traditional vehicles would have been huge. No western congestion charge either which I believe provoked the final set of improvements. In contect, it was bold but made some sense. As for routes gaining single deckers in the late 90s, there were certainly routes that got them that left you scratching your head, but it was often about delivering accessibility improvements quickly. Low floor single deckers were now standard, proven and economical while low floor double deckers were still pretty much on the drawing board. |
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Post by danorak on Dec 10, 2020 15:10:19 GMT
I always assumed the Roundabout project was a success, however the exact opposite was the case with Bexleybus. When the R1-R6 was proposed, was there any other proposals that didn’t happen? I was always intrigued by the first incarnation of the R6, which went out to Sevenoaks, but only lasted about 18 months: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/prefix/r6-1.htmlIt was replaced by Kentish Bus services: roundabout.moonfruit.com/#/roundabout-routes/4526029580Suspect that a decade or so on it might have been nurtured and given a bit more support, when cross-border buses had a bit more support. The R6 was a bit of a mess really, just a cluster of journeys that didn't really fit anywhere else. Afrter the 1987 changes it was much closer to the original proposal for a Halstead circular. I suppose in some ways the replacement route to Sevenoaks, the 22, was eventually nurtured and grew into the 402. And the Halstead - Sevenoaks bit was outside London so LRT, as was, were probably quite happy to lose responsibility for it. I would still like to see a Roundabout mkII experiment: it's noticeable that some of the old issues, like a wide frequency on the Knockholt circular, have reemerged over time. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 10, 2020 15:59:44 GMT
I remember heading over that way to try it out. The highlight was ride on a packed LS on the 422. It was horrible. Just as horrible as seeing some nearly new C reg M’s departing Norbiton’s routes and replaced by relicensed DM’s from the training fleet. Scandalous. Single deckers on the 422 attracted a lot of complaints, they couldn't cope with the peak hour loadings to and from Woolwich Arsenal. The LSs on the 422 were as a result of a lot of residents in Hythe Avenue complaining about having any bus down their road. London Buses eventually compromised and ran single deckers rather than their preferred doubles. By the end of 1988 the route was with Boro’line Maidstone and they began to sneak double decker buses out, until in due course the single deckers were totally banished. |
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Post by wirewiper on Dec 10, 2020 16:28:02 GMT
The R6 was a bit of a mess really, just a cluster of journeys that didn't really fit anywhere else. Afrter the 1987 changes it was much closer to the original proposal for a Halstead circular. I suppose in some ways the replacement route to Sevenoaks, the 22, was eventually nurtured and grew into the 402. And the Halstead - Sevenoaks bit was outside London so LRT, as was, were probably quite happy to lose responsibility for it. I would still like to see a Roundabout mkII experiment: it's noticeable that some of the old issues, like a wide frequency on the Knockholt circular, have reemerged over time. I got the impression that the 431 (which the R6 replaced) was operated mainly as a way of getting vehicles and drivers from Dunton Green (DG) Garage to and from Orpington to operate the 493, which was the only London Country route to operate entirely within Greater London. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Dec 10, 2020 17:39:50 GMT
The thing is these frequencies would of happened in due course as in the TfL years, the investment came along which saw these routes go double deckers in any event and the frequencies would of eventually met the target they originally sat at prior to cuts. In fairness though, there's ten years between the 28/31 conversions and TfL coming along. Things were on a tight budget and deregulation in London was still on the cards. I've no doubt Centrewest wanted to convert these routes to OPO but the cost of new traditional vehicles would have been huge. No western congestion charge either which I believe provoked the final set of improvements. In contect, it was bold but made some sense. As for routes gaining single deckers in the late 90s, there were certainly routes that got them that left you scratching your head, but it was often about delivering accessibility improvements quickly. Low floor single deckers were now standard, proven and economical while low floor double deckers were still pretty much on the drawing board. Surely it was LRTs decision to convert the 28 and 31 to OPO as inevitably all non central (west end) routes were converting and not just a decision by the devolved subsidiary to decide to use minibuses. The cost of going from 20 RMs to 36 OPO minibuses was probably still cheaper then continued crew operation. |
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Post by buspete on Dec 11, 2020 20:46:38 GMT
The R6 was a bit of a mess really, just a cluster of journeys that didn't really fit anywhere else. Afrter the 1987 changes it was much closer to the original proposal for a Halstead circular. I suppose in some ways the replacement route to Sevenoaks, the 22, was eventually nurtured and grew into the 402. And the Halstead - Sevenoaks bit was outside London so LRT, as was, were probably quite happy to lose responsibility for it. I would still like to see a Roundabout mkII experiment: it's noticeable that some of the old issues, like a wide frequency on the Knockholt circular, have reemerged over time. I got the impression that the 431 (which the R6 replaced) was operated mainly as a way of getting vehicles and drivers from Dunton Green (DG) Garage to and from Orpington to operate the 493, which was the only London Country route to operate entirely within Greater London. Fascinating, I never gave it any thought that the 493 was the only route to operate entirely in London. Where the 493 operated to the Ramsden Estate was a late development in the the 1950-60s. So wonder how the bus route came into London Country hands, opposed to London Transport instead? When Roundabout was founded it took over the 493 partially, from Orpington to Green Street Green via Chelsfield. So wonder if you guys know why Roundabout didn’t take over the Ramsden Estate section on Roundabout inception? |
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