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Post by buspete on Jan 13, 2021 18:04:59 GMT
The Roundabout was novel at the time, as it gave areas such as The Crays, Chelsfield Station and Petts Wood a big frequency boost, as well as bring buses closer to peoples’ homes, by serving previous unserved areas. However the network wasn’t perfect and evolved.
R6 sadly disappeared, due to funding issues.
R7 A new route that run hourly between Cockmanning Estate, Orpington and Coppice Estate.
This route served a couple of estates previously unserved and gave residents’ a local bus route, however the bus was infrequent.
The Cockmanning Estate bus has been replaced by new route R6 and runs every 30 minutes. This means with the 477 & R4 St Mary’s Cray Village now has 7 bph, pre Roundabout it was 2bph with the 477.
The Coppice Estate has been replace by route R3, by excellent route development by TFL. The Coppice Estate has now 3bph.
The R7 is a very much a different looking route now that runs every 30 minutes from Chelsfield Village (replacing 477,) Orpington and Chistlehust. Linking new areas with Orpington and Chistlehursf.
The R8 another new route that served Cockmanning Estate, Orpington and Chelsfield Village (first route to replace 477,) it served unserved roads in the Cockmanning Estate, giving residents’ a new bus route. Today the R8 looks very different. With excellent route planning TFL replaced the R8 bus in the Cockmanning Estate has been replaced by the rerouting of bus R4, giving the area a big frequency boost and also giving the Ramsden Estate a handy bus route.
The R8 bus is now the old R2, that gives a poor service, running every 90 minutes. However the route is severely under-utilised.
The R2 bus is a new route that runs Biggin Hill, Keston, Locks Bottom and Orpington High Street. Runs every 30 minute, mainly to serve Locks Bottom Hospital, however it gave the residents’ of Biggin Hill a much improved bus service to Orpington.
R9 Replaced bus route 493 in the Ramsden Estate, identical frequency to the old route 493, however the Ramsden Estate is enhanced by bus routes R4 & 353, which has given the area with the most populous area of the estate with a massive frequency boost.
When Roundabout got introduced areas were given a massive frequency boost, but albeit with small ‘bread van’ buses, today the buses are of a more suitable size. Area like St Mary Cray you only had the option to go to Orpington/Sidcup on a one bus ride. Today you have the B14 that goes to Bexleyheath and 273 that goes Bromley and Lewisham, this gives residents’ more options. Today the Ramsden’s Estate has better bus route options.
As pointed out in this thread Green Street Green, Farnbourgh to Bromley was Severely underserved with a bus every 30 minutes the 361 & 402 giving a combined service every 30 minutes. This was alleviated with new route 358 that run Crystal Palace, Bromley Farnbourgh & Orpington. (This route eventually replaced 361, 402 & partially the R1.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 13, 2021 18:30:04 GMT
Luckily despite its length the 358 is a fairly reliable service despite being 15 miles long. It probably owes its length to providing a service from Beckenham and Elmers End to PRU Hospital and the lack of anymore stand space at Bromley North to create a more local Bromley to Orpington via Farnborough service.
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Post by buspete on Jan 14, 2021 16:55:01 GMT
I would pull bus route 61.
By extending 161 from Chistlehurst to Orpington. This would give 2bph extra on that section
The section between Orpington to Bromley would be replaced by bus route R9. This would give 1bph increase over this section to 5bph.
It would give a direct link, 1 bus ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley. It would also be the first ‘R’ route to enter Bromley.
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 14, 2021 17:10:38 GMT
I would pull bus route 61. By extending 161 from Chistlehurst to Orpington. This would give 2bph extra on that section The section between Orpington to Bromley would be replaced by bus route R9. This would give 1bph increase over this section to 5bph. It would give a direct link, 1 bus ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley. It would also be the first ‘R’ route to enter Bromley. You would make the 161 excessively long and would over-bus Chislehurst to Orpington which does not need six buses an hour. The R9 works well as a useful local link into Orpington and to Orpington Station for commuters and shoppers. I cannot imagine the demand for onward travel to Bromley is that great and can in any case be met by transferring to buses 61 and 208, or to the train link. By extending the R9 you lose resilience in the timetable by exposing it to traffic delays in the Bromley area. |
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Post by greenboy on Jan 14, 2021 19:31:38 GMT
I would pull bus route 61. By extending 161 from Chistlehurst to Orpington. This would give 2bph extra on that section The section between Orpington to Bromley would be replaced by bus route R9. This would give 1bph increase over this section to 5bph. It would give a direct link, 1 bus ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley. It would also be the first ‘R’ route to enter Bromley. I thought of something similar, reroute the 353 to Chislehurst and the 61 to Ramsden. Although extending the 161 would give a Orpington to Eltham link and might encourage a bit more bus usage, I think the 61 and 161 only terminate end on at Chislehurst because there is stand space there, if necessary the 161 could be curtailed at Woolwich with something else covering the North Greenwich section. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2021 21:20:20 GMT
The Roundabout was novel at the time, as it gave areas such as The Crays, Chelsfield Station and Petts Wood a big frequency boost, as well as bring buses closer to peoples’ homes, by serving previous unserved areas. However the network wasn’t perfect and evolved. R6 sadly disappeared, due to funding issues. R7 A new route that run hourly between Cockmanning Estate, Orpington and Coppice Estate. This route served a couple of estates previously unserved and gave residents’ a local bus route, however the bus was infrequent. The Cockmanning Estate bus has been replaced by new route R6 and runs every 30 minutes. This means with the 477 & R4 St Mary’s Cray Village now has 7 bph, pre Roundabout it was 2bph with the 477. The Coppice Estate has been replace by route R3, by excellent route development by TFL. The Coppice Estate has now 3bph. The R7 is a very much a different looking route now that runs every 30 minutes from Chelsfield Village (replacing 477,) Orpington and Chistlehust. Linking new areas with Orpington and Chistlehursf. The R8 another new route that served Cockmanning Estate, Orpington and Chelsfield Village (first route to replace 477,) it served unserved roads in the Cockmanning Estate, giving residents’ a new bus route. Today the R8 looks very different. With excellent route planning TFL replaced the R8 bus in the Cockmanning Estate has been replaced by the rerouting of bus R4, giving the area a big frequency boost and also giving the Ramsden Estate a handy bus route. The R8 bus is now the old R2, that gives a poor service, running every 90 minutes. However the route is severely under-utilised. The R2 bus is a new route that runs Biggin Hill, Keston, Locks Bottom and Orpington High Street. Runs every 30 minute, mainly to serve Locks Bottom Hospital, however it gave the residents’ of Biggin Hill a much improved bus service to Orpington. R9 Replaced bus route 493 in the Ramsden Estate, identical frequency to the old route 493, however the Ramsden Estate is enhanced by bus routes R4 & 353, which has given the area with the most populous area of the estate with a massive frequency boost. When Roundabout got introduced areas were given a massive frequency boost, but albeit with small ‘bread van’ buses, today the buses are of a more suitable size. Area like St Mary Cray you only had the option to go to Orpington/Sidcup on a one bus ride. Today you have the B14 that goes to Bexleyheath and 273 that goes Bromley and Lewisham, this gives residents’ more options. Today the Ramsden’s Estate has better bus route options. As pointed out in this thread Green Street Green, Farnbourgh to Bromley was Severely underserved with a bus every 30 minutes the 361 & 402 giving a combined service every 30 minutes. This was alleviated with new route 358 that run Crystal Palace, Bromley Farnbourgh & Orpington. (This route eventually replaced 361, 402 & partially the R1. A minor nitpick regarding the 273, it doesn’t serve Bromley. |
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Post by Paul on Jan 15, 2021 0:13:58 GMT
I would pull bus route 61. By extending 161 from Chistlehurst to Orpington. This would give 2bph extra on that section The section between Orpington to Bromley would be replaced by bus route R9. This would give 1bph increase over this section to 5bph. It would give a direct link, 1 bus ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley. It would also be the first ‘R’ route to enter Bromley. Chislehurst to Orpington doesn’t need what it has now, let alone an extra 2bph. Additionally, there’s nowhere in Orpington to terminate a route like the 161. I would suggest a re-route of the B14 from QMH, along Perry Street to Chislehurst War Memorial and then the 61 route to Orpington as a more suitable replacement for the 61 over that section - possibly with a dedicated school route from Chislehurst School for Girls to Orpington As for the 61, I’d stick it into the Ramsden Estate alongside the R9. The R9 does its job perfectly and I’d be loathe to mess about with it. I think a direct Ramsden Estate-Bromley link would be popular though; provided there’s somewhere on the Ramsden Estate for the 61 to stand. It would make the 61 a little on the short side though so why not have that replace the 320 between Bromley and Catford? |
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Post by buspete on Jan 15, 2021 18:40:03 GMT
Room would be made for the 161 at Orpington Station, as the R9 would not be terminating there anymore.
The 161 used to run passed Chistlehurst to Petts Wood, so had both the 61 and 161 run past the war memorial, so don’t agree the section between Chistlehurst and Orpington is over-bused it will attract more people to travel by this route than before, also restore a direct link between Orpington and Eltham. Years ago the 208 used to run every 30 minutes to Orpington and not at all on a Sunday, no ones says that’s over-bused, it just shows how routes evolve to serve the ever growing local population.
The R9: route is so slight, obviously there is a big demand for Orpington Station for commuting and leisure in London, however there is not much to see in Orpington High Street, where Bromley High Street is a great place to shop and a one seat ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley would appeal and attract more people to use the route. Where people have to use more than one bus, it loses its appeal. On the Ramsden Estate no one is saying that the R9, 353 and R4 are over-bused now, compared to what it was years ago, just again how routes have evolved. Cannot see how the 61 would serve Ramsden Estate without splitting the route?
i agree the 161 would be excessively long though and maybe it would be reasonable terminate it back again at Woolwich. It would be more advantage to have the 96 go to North Greenwich?
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2021 19:32:26 GMT
Room would be made for the 161 at Orpington Station, as the R9 would not be terminating there anymore. The 161 used to run passed Chistlehurst to Petts Wood, so had both the 61 and 161 run past the war memorial, so don’t agree the section between Chistlehurst and Orpington is over-bused it will attract more people to travel by this route than before, also restore a direct link between Orpington and Eltham. Years ago the 208 used to run every 30 minutes to Orpington and not at all on a Sunday, no ones says that’s over-bused, it just shows how routes evolve to serve the ever growing local population. The R9: route is so slight, obviously there is a big demand for Orpington Station for commuting and leisure in London, however there is not much to see in Orpington High Street, where Bromley High Street is a great place to shop and a one seat ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley would appeal and attract more people to use the route. Where people have to use more than one bus, it loses its appeal. On the Ramsden Estate no one is saying that the R9, 353 and R4 are over-bused now, compared to what it was years ago, just again how routes have evolved. Cannot see how the 61 would serve Ramsden Estate without splitting the route? i agree the 161 would be excessively long though and maybe it would be reasonable terminate it back again at Woolwich. It would be more advantage to have the 96 go to North Greenwich? I can see a lot of merit in what you're suggesting, if the 161 is curtailed at Woolwich it could be reduced slightly to 5bph. Chislehurst is hardly a major objective and it does make more sense to have a thorough service rather than the 61 and 161 terminating there. I'm sure Ramsden residents will welcome a direct link to Bromley even if it does come with the risk of a less reliable service at times. The 61 could be extended to Catford and the 320 curtailed at Bromley North and reduced to x15/20mins. I also think the 353 should be returned to Croydon replacing the Addington end of the 466. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 15, 2021 19:35:00 GMT
Room would be made for the 161 at Orpington Station, as the R9 would not be terminating there anymore. The 161 used to run passed Chistlehurst to Petts Wood, so had both the 61 and 161 run past the war memorial, so don’t agree the section between Chistlehurst and Orpington is over-bused it will attract more people to travel by this route than before, also restore a direct link between Orpington and Eltham. Years ago the 208 used to run every 30 minutes to Orpington and not at all on a Sunday, no ones says that’s over-bused, it just shows how routes evolve to serve the ever growing local population. The R9: route is so slight, obviously there is a big demand for Orpington Station for commuting and leisure in London, however there is not much to see in Orpington High Street, where Bromley High Street is a great place to shop and a one seat ride between Ramsden Estate and Bromley would appeal and attract more people to use the route. Where people have to use more than one bus, it loses its appeal. On the Ramsden Estate no one is saying that the R9, 353 and R4 are over-bused now, compared to what it was years ago, just again how routes have evolved. Cannot see how the 61 would serve Ramsden Estate without splitting the route? i agree the 161 would be excessively long though and maybe it would be reasonable terminate it back again at Woolwich. It would be more advantage to have the 96 go to North Greenwich? The 96 is already a lengthy route despite it's non stop section east of Dartford so I couldn't see any justification in extending it further at the western end. Now at night time, a N96 running from there to Dartford might be a really good idea. The R9's purpose is to provide a high frequency link into Orpington from the estate hence it being so slight - granted, Orpington might not have the shops that Bromley has but there has been a lot of evidence over the last few years of people tending to shop more locally, not to mention the good train connections to travel elsewhere and the R9 fits the bill perfectly - this type of route is common in other cities around the country. The 61 would then have to split though not sure how the northern part would be served unless we revist an idea Paul had about splitting the R7 except merge the Orpington to Chelsfield section with the 61 north of Orpington which gives a Chislehurst to Chelsfield route that should stay clear of lots of traffic and probably has the right demand for both sections? That leaves the 61 free to run from Ramsden Estate (space permitting of course) to Bromley North giving the link your desiring. |
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Post by buspete on Jan 15, 2021 21:57:09 GMT
So are you saying you now have 4 bus routes serve Ramsden Estate?
The benefit of extending the 96 to North Greenwich would be it connects to the Jubilee Line and Elizabeth Line at Woolwich. I would have the 96 run all night and would connect with Night Tube on the Jubilee/Elizabeth Line (if that ever runs again, is anyone’s guess,) as you kind of suggested. Granted though it would be a long bus route, which can become problematic. The North Greenwich extension has been suggested on another thread, as has a all night bus service.
It seems now that night bus routes follow the exact day route, gone are partial extensions and short workings, which the buses used to do years back. So do agree with the concept of N96, but not sure TFL would sanction a specific night route now?
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Post by vjaska on Jan 15, 2021 22:31:04 GMT
So are you saying you now have 4 bus routes serve Ramsden Estate? The benefit of extending the 96 to North Greenwich would be it connects to the Jubilee Line and Elizabeth Line at Woolwich. I would have the 96 run all night and would connect with Night Tube on the Jubilee/Elizabeth Line (if that ever runs again, is anyone’s guess,) as you kind of suggested. Granted though it would be a long bus route, which can become problematic. The North Greenwich extension has been suggested on another thread, as has a all night bus service. It seems now that night bus routes follow the exact day route, gone are partial extensions and short workings, which the buses used to do years back. So do agree with the concept of N96, but not sure TFL would sanction a specific night route now? 4 routes may be excessive (it's not for me to say either way) but it's the only way it would likely come about. The only other option would be to remove the 353 from the estate and cut that back to allow the 61 in which would give further impetus in extending that to Croydon via Coombe Lane & Lloyd Park with the Forestdale section passing to something more local. I understand the benefit of what the 96 could bring but when you factor in it's length and the hot spots it currently runs through, it becomes less worthwhile in bringing that to fruition. As for the night routes, it has never been a policy where night routes must exactly follow unless they are 24 hour routes - N prefix routes have always involved sections of route that the day service never ran along and use of the N prefix has started to become more common again in the last few years following some day time routes being cut back and a new N prefix covering the old routing. |
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Post by danorak on Jan 16, 2021 13:50:53 GMT
Vaguely related to all this and pertinent now that the 96 has been dragged into discussion...
33 years ago today, Bexleybus was unleashed on the residents of Bexleyheath and surrounding areas. It was a day pretty much as gloomy as this one. I remember trying out a new Olympian on the 178 which felt very alien with its Manchester-style spec. But I'm not sure I've ever had a more miserable and cold experience using buses than waiting on that first day for a 401 in Bexleyheath or for a 272 at the wasteland of Thamesmead 'Town Centre'.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 16, 2021 14:49:54 GMT
Vaguely related to all this and pertinent now that the 96 has been dragged into discussion... 33 years ago today, Bexleybus was unleashed on the residents of Bexleyheath and surrounding areas. It was a day pretty much as gloomy as this one. I remember trying out a new Olympian on the 178 which felt very alien with its Manchester-style spec. But I'm not sure I've ever had a more miserable and cold experience using buses than waiting on that first day for a 401 in Bexleyheath or for a 272 at the wasteland of Thamesmead 'Town Centre'. My first experience of Bexleybus was a motheaten DMS2143 on the 229 to Sidcup for youth orchestra rehearsal. Bus was late and slow, setting the tone for what was to come. Bexleybus was to get a lot of us music students into trouble for late arrival to rehearsal/general unreliability... |
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 16, 2021 15:09:11 GMT
Sorry for the ignorance but who was actually in charge at the Bexleybus, Kingstonbus etc..was it an outside company who took on an entire areas routes or was it a subsidy of LRT?
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