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Post by Busboy105 on Apr 24, 2021 20:48:00 GMT
Stupid question. What’s an orbital route?
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 24, 2021 21:10:35 GMT
Stupid question. What’s an orbital route? Routes like the 123 and 112 which go around in an arc shape linking two different parts of London like how the 123 goes from East to North London and the 112 goes from North to West London. You could also include routes like the 37 which stay within their parts of London, but go quite far across them.
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Post by Busboy105 on Apr 24, 2021 21:35:08 GMT
Stupid question. What’s an orbital route? Routes like the 123 and 112 which go around in an arc shape linking two different parts of London like how the 123 goes from East to North London and the 112 goes from North to West London. You could also include routes like the 37 which stay within their parts of London, but go quite far across them. Ok thanks for the explanation
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Post by TB123 on Apr 24, 2021 21:39:31 GMT
A few predictions of mine Continuing presence of electric buses, but with deliveries focused on garages already kitted out - funding struggles making garage equipping unviable New iBus screens like the Abellio Caetanos introduced. Another route branding trial somewhere No new operators enter - one will depart through a sale or merger with an existing operator. The bus network in inner London is completely redrawn with a more simplified web of shorter services - increasingly working as railhead feeders in order to bump up Tube revenues. Most existing trunk routes in central area split - hopper fare etc Outer London bus network tweaked further, new bus routes in places with new homes, reduction elsewhere on overbussed sections. Maybe another express route or two introduced. A few more "orbital" routes introduced with small extensions or mergers - eg 110, 125, 384 More cycle lanes and traffic calming measures rolled out. Hammersmith Bridge will still be closed. The 13 is still operated by Tower Transit with Evosetis with buses continuing to operated in pairs or trios. I'll think of more Can you expand on how the 125 will be a orbital route? Could it possibly extend to Edmonton? The 125 has been extended from Finchley to Colindale - it now offers quite a connection across that area of North London. Very much an orbital service now
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 25, 2021 7:48:54 GMT
A few predictions of mine Continuing presence of electric buses, but with deliveries focused on garages already kitted out - funding struggles making garage equipping unviable New iBus screens like the Abellio Caetanos introduced. Another route branding trial somewhere No new operators enter - one will depart through a sale or merger with an existing operator. The bus network in inner London is completely redrawn with a more simplified web of shorter services - increasingly working as railhead feeders in order to bump up Tube revenues. Most existing trunk routes in central area split - hopper fare etc Outer London bus network tweaked further, new bus routes in places with new homes, reduction elsewhere on overbussed sections. Maybe another express route or two introduced. A few more "orbital" routes introduced with small extensions or mergers - eg 110, 125, 384 More cycle lanes and traffic calming measures rolled out. Hammersmith Bridge will still be closed. The 13 is still operated by Tower Transit with Evosetis with buses continuing to operated in pairs or trios. I'll think of more Can you expand on how the 125 will be a orbital route? Could it possibly extend to Edmonton? The 125 has reliability issues down to traffic on its Western section so no unless congestion was reduced throughout.
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Post by VMH2537 on Apr 25, 2021 12:02:26 GMT
Can you expand on how the 125 will be a orbital route? Could it possibly extend to Edmonton? The 125 has reliability issues down to traffic on its Western section so no unless congestion was reduced throughout. Services arrive on time mostly as it has some traffic congestion on both Finchley Road and Southgate making it easier to predict time arrivals as it's both ends of the route. Church Street in Edmonton can have some traffic with the A10 adding 3 traffic congestions on each part of the route. As long the traffic levels can predict arrivals.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 25, 2021 12:08:19 GMT
The 125 has reliability issues down to traffic on its Western section so no unless congestion was reduced throughout. Services arrive on time mostly as it has some traffic congestion on both Finchley Road and Southgate making it easier to predict time arrivals as it's both ends of the route. Church Street in Edmonton can have some traffic with the A10 adding 3 traffic congestions on each part of the route. As long the traffic levels can predict arrivals. However there can be tailbacks at other parts of the route such as near the Hendon Way at times but also by the Great North Way. The 125 could get extended but there would need to be bus priority such as bus lanes that mean it can skip traffic.
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Post by Gellico on Apr 29, 2021 0:09:44 GMT
Predictions: Apart from cuts carrying on as normal for the most part really. With some subtle changes in how contracts are awarded going forward.
What I would like to see: A complete overhaul of how contracts are awarded and specifically a move away from paying bonus's based on performance (as this just leads to regulation for the most part to hit timing points which does little to benefit passengers) and instead more of a 'partnership' model adopted where operators are fully allowed and incentivised to make their services more attractive to potential punters and ops get paid bonus if they meet a pre-agreed %pax growth per annum with potential for them to retain fares if a certain level of growth is met. Certain pre-requites would need to be established, particularly with timetables so you don't, for example, have a 45 running 1 min ahead of every 176 down the Walworth Rd to nick all the passengers. Also the added benefit of this would be that timetables would be far more evenly spread out so on multi-bus corridors you don't have everything grouping together and then massive gaps. A lot of the "traditional" aspects of London Buses ditched entirely, this ongoing obsession with Johnston font for everything is useless - just enable all operators to use commercially available blinds that have been on the market for literally decades... the new high res blinds only solve an issue that TFL has arbitrarily created themselves...
All over red ditched (well reduced down to something like 65% so a London bus is still obvious as to what it is, this being said all over adverts and provincial extras have had little effect in this regard - never have I heard of someone not getting aboard a bus because it is the wrong colour, as long as the front is correct no one gives a poo) enabling operators to hark onto experience from across other sectors to fully promote and attract more passengers to their services. If you have seen what GNE have done of recent can you imagine what GAL would start doing for example. If local people feel they sorta own their local service they will be far more inclined to use it.
Interior Specification standards massively increased, literally TFL spec interior is now worse than that of dealer spec vehicles... TFL buses win no points with the bland and basic interiors. We need to have more inviting, less clinical and basic buses if we want people to ditch their cars - again look at GNE or Reading as to how you can make a genuinely nice and welcoming interior whilst still being as practical as ever.
Less silly initiatives such as these window plugs which leave a 10mm gap keeping the window open - honestly there is no sodding point, just a waste of money.
Basically a lot of the "dead-weight" needs to be cut free and a radical new approach to running buses in London is needed to stimulate passenger growth at every level of the organisation. No longer should buses be seen as "the mode of last resort" or "plugs" for areas that lack the tube... they're a serious mode of transport that can be made to be far more attractive. When you think of the standard of a bus for an able-bodied person in London literally nothing (bar introduction of USBs in 2019 to all new vehicles) has changed in terms of internal specification, it is embarrassing how London takes it's passengers for granted...
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 29, 2021 10:44:35 GMT
Predictions: Apart from cuts carrying on as normal for the most part really. With some subtle changes in how contracts are awarded going forward. What I would like to see: A complete overhaul of how contracts are awarded and specifically a move away from paying bonus's based on performance (as this just leads to regulation for the most part to hit timing points which does little to benefit passengers) and instead more of a 'partnership' model adopted where operators are fully allowed and incentivised to make their services more attractive to potential punters and ops get paid bonus if they meet a pre-agreed %pax growth per annum with potential for them to retain fares if a certain level of growth is met. Certain pre-requites would need to be established, particularly with timetables so you don't, for example, have a 45 running 1 min ahead of every 176 down the Walworth Rd to nick all the passengers. Also the added benefit of this would be that timetables would be far more evenly spread out so on multi-bus corridors you don't have everything grouping together and then massive gaps. A lot of the "traditional" aspects of London Buses ditched entirely, this ongoing obsession with Johnston font for everything is useless - just enable all operators to use commercially available blinds that have been on the market for literally decades... the new high res blinds only solve an issue that TFL has arbitrarily created themselves... All over red ditched (well reduced down to something like 65% so a London bus is still obvious as to what it is, this being said all over adverts and provincial extras have had little effect in this regard - never have I heard of someone not getting aboard a bus because it is the wrong colour, as long as the front is correct no one gives a poo) enabling operators to hark onto experience from across other sectors to fully promote and attract more passengers to their services. If you have seen what GNE have done of recent can you imagine what GAL would start doing for example. If local people feel they sorta own their local service they will be far more inclined to use it. Interior Specification standards massively increased, literally TFL spec interior is now worse than that of dealer spec vehicles... TFL buses win no points with the bland and basic interiors. We need to have more inviting, less clinical and basic buses if we want people to ditch their cars - again look at GNE or Reading as to how you can make a genuinely nice and welcoming interior whilst still being as practical as ever. Less silly initiatives such as these window plugs which leave a 10mm gap keeping the window open - honestly there is no sodding point, just a waste of money. Basically a lot of the "dead-weight" needs to be cut free and a radical new approach to running buses in London is needed to stimulate passenger growth at every level of the organisation. No longer should buses be seen as "the mode of last resort" or "plugs" for areas that lack the tube... they're a serious mode of transport that can be made to be far more attractive. When you think of the standard of a bus for an able-bodied person in London literally nothing (bar introduction of USBs in 2019 to all new vehicles) has changed in terms of internal specification, it is embarrassing how London takes it's passengers for granted... I think operators running in a "partnership" model won't go down particularly well. What happens when one operator invests a tonne of money into a route like the 25, just for the route to then take a tumble should people never return to the offices of Central London in huge numbers? The operator would have planned finances on estimated growth which would now not be there at all. Then not to mention imagine shared corridors like the 101 and 474, you'll start to be instigating competition on both routes, but then it will depend on the terms of each bid. For all we know Stagecoach could have the 474 making them a load of money, even if they constantly get fined but Go Ahead on the 101 could be barely making money due to a far lower bid and rewards it's not quite fair effectively forcing one route along a corridor to spark up while the other just sits there in its standard state because the operator makes money anyway. Then what about one operator benefiting off the work of another? If Go Ahead spruce the 88 up and people who want to go to the Zoo get it as a result, Metroline on the 274 is also likely to benefit for themselves as a result of work by Go Ahead. The network in London relies far too much on each bus route feeding into another, and operators don't feed into this. Operators in London when it comes to actual routes shouldn't be competing against each other for ridership as it's what leads to some routes being neglected. Some routes just won't see much growth and operators may neglect these, that's not fair to the people who do use the route. Just because a route doesn't see growth doesn't mean that route should be left behind in terms of developments. I don't think on board experience is actually an issue, even looking at the stuff outside of London my 14 year old car still manages to have more features. I can play music out loud from a playlist of my choice, I have navigation, once I connect my phone I can even ask Google assistant all sorts of questions when I'm driving through the roads to reroute me accordingly and I get a live route that avoids the traffic in places and it constantly routes me faster ways. Not to then mention a car is effectively my own, I can keep what I want in it where I want in it. You're not going to get someone out of their car by making a bus seem luxurious, a car from 2006 is probably still going to be far more modern internally than a bus from 2021 because that's simply how they're designed. When I'm sat in my car, even outside of London not once have I even glanced at a bus and thought "oh that looks so nice, I'm going to take that next time" when that bus is sat behind me in a traffic jam, just for it to fade into the distance as it continuously keeps stopping at bus stops. The approach outside of London generally seems to be to attract people who wouldn't have travelled otherwise, while the aim in London is to get people to use the bus instead of private modes of transport. Private modes of transport are far better simply because they're infinitely faster. Yesterday coming home from Gallions Reach Tesco I managed to get home in 5 minutes from pulling out of the car park to backing up into my space at home, consistently obeying all the speed limits. If I did this on a bus then chances are the bus wouldn't have even have arrived at the Tesco, then let alone needing to stop at all the stops on the way and then deviating off before coming back to where I need it to be. So it's a question of even if that bus had nice leather seats, had USB points, had a nice looking floor that I'd have not even batted an eyelid to actually using it because of simply how inefficient the journey is. This then all gets underpinned by the fact that London will always be London, I've lost track of the amount of times the stop bells off the 86s Tridents would end up in my school playground because someone got bored and screwed and yanked them off the bus as a joke. Imagine if you did something like that with those rear tip up seats that GNE have, someone would screw them off as a joke and it'll end up getting thrown around in a school playground somewhere. We've all probably seen the TikTok of how once a load of handles from the upper deck of an MHV got stolen right in the middle of a bus journey. I don't think passengers will care about the colour of the bus in the end either for the reasons I've mentioned. Really the answer lies in bus priority, make me want to use the 366 to Tesco instead of driving. Make me want to use the 238 or 262 to Westfield instead of driving. Why would I pay £3.10 for a bus when the parking charge is only £3 and the car park entrance is slap bang in the middle of the shopping centre. Buses need to be seen as the faster option, the more convenient option, the easier option. Many round the corner links are just simply missing, if I'm in Canning Town and need to get to a local Currys for example, on a bus I'd need to get a 115 to Poplar and then a D8 to Canary Wharf to get to the Geographically closest one or a 69 to Stratford then a walk into Westfield. While with a car it's just a case of jumping on the A13, head to Canary Wharf and park in the car park they have available there. I needed to go to Whitechapel at 8pm the other day, I had the option of the car, tube or bus. Took 20min to drive there from Barking, whereas on a bus I'd have needed to take a 5 to Canning Town and then a 309 to Bethnal Green, that would have taken three times as long. Even if the bus was more comfortable than my car, which it probably wouldn't be, I'd have not used it due to the ridiculous time it took.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 29, 2021 14:50:21 GMT
Predictions: Apart from cuts carrying on as normal for the most part really. With some subtle changes in how contracts are awarded going forward. What I would like to see: A complete overhaul of how contracts are awarded and specifically a move away from paying bonus's based on performance (as this just leads to regulation for the most part to hit timing points which does little to benefit passengers) and instead more of a 'partnership' model adopted where operators are fully allowed and incentivised to make their services more attractive to potential punters and ops get paid bonus if they meet a pre-agreed %pax growth per annum with potential for them to retain fares if a certain level of growth is met. Certain pre-requites would need to be established, particularly with timetables so you don't, for example, have a 45 running 1 min ahead of every 176 down the Walworth Rd to nick all the passengers. Also the added benefit of this would be that timetables would be far more evenly spread out so on multi-bus corridors you don't have everything grouping together and then massive gaps. A lot of the "traditional" aspects of London Buses ditched entirely, this ongoing obsession with Johnston font for everything is useless - just enable all operators to use commercially available blinds that have been on the market for literally decades... the new high res blinds only solve an issue that TFL has arbitrarily created themselves... All over red ditched (well reduced down to something like 65% so a London bus is still obvious as to what it is, this being said all over adverts and provincial extras have had little effect in this regard - never have I heard of someone not getting aboard a bus because it is the wrong colour, as long as the front is correct no one gives a poo) enabling operators to hark onto experience from across other sectors to fully promote and attract more passengers to their services. If you have seen what GNE have done of recent can you imagine what GAL would start doing for example. If local people feel they sorta own their local service they will be far more inclined to use it. Interior Specification standards massively increased, literally TFL spec interior is now worse than that of dealer spec vehicles... TFL buses win no points with the bland and basic interiors. We need to have more inviting, less clinical and basic buses if we want people to ditch their cars - again look at GNE or Reading as to how you can make a genuinely nice and welcoming interior whilst still being as practical as ever. Less silly initiatives such as these window plugs which leave a 10mm gap keeping the window open - honestly there is no sodding point, just a waste of money. Basically a lot of the "dead-weight" needs to be cut free and a radical new approach to running buses in London is needed to stimulate passenger growth at every level of the organisation. No longer should buses be seen as "the mode of last resort" or "plugs" for areas that lack the tube... they're a serious mode of transport that can be made to be far more attractive. When you think of the standard of a bus for an able-bodied person in London literally nothing (bar introduction of USBs in 2019 to all new vehicles) has changed in terms of internal specification, it is embarrassing how London takes it's passengers for granted... I think operators running in a "partnership" model won't go down particularly well. What happens when one operator invests a tonne of money into a route like the 25, just for the route to then take a tumble should people never return to the offices of Central London in huge numbers? The operator would have planned finances on estimated growth which would now not be there at all. Then not to mention imagine shared corridors like the 101 and 474, you'll start to be instigating competition on both routes, but then it will depend on the terms of each bid. For all we know Stagecoach could have the 474 making them a load of money, even if they constantly get fined but Go Ahead on the 101 could be barely making money due to a far lower bid and rewards it's not quite fair effectively forcing one route along a corridor to spark up while the other just sits there in its standard state because the operator makes money anyway. Then what about one operator benefiting off the work of another? If Go Ahead spruce the 88 up and people who want to go to the Zoo get it as a result, Metroline on the 274 is also likely to benefit for themselves as a result of work by Go Ahead. The network in London relies far too much on each bus route feeding into another, and operators don't feed into this. Operators in London when it comes to actual routes shouldn't be competing against each other for ridership as it's what leads to some routes being neglected. Some routes just won't see much growth and operators may neglect these, that's not fair to the people who do use the route. Just because a route doesn't see growth doesn't mean that route should be left behind in terms of developments. I don't think on board experience is actually an issue, even looking at the stuff outside of London my 14 year old car still manages to have more features. I can play music out loud from a playlist of my choice, I have navigation, once I connect my phone I can even ask Google assistant all sorts of questions when I'm driving through the roads to reroute me accordingly and I get a live route that avoids the traffic in places and it constantly routes me faster ways. Not to then mention a car is effectively my own, I can keep what I want in it where I want in it. You're not going to get someone out of their car by making a bus seem luxurious, a car from 2006 is probably still going to be far more modern internally than a bus from 2021 because that's simply how they're designed. When I'm sat in my car, even outside of London not once have I even glanced at a bus and thought "oh that looks so nice, I'm going to take that next time" when that bus is sat behind me in a traffic jam, just for it to fade into the distance as it continuously keeps stopping at bus stops. The approach outside of London generally seems to be to attract people who wouldn't have travelled otherwise, while the aim in London is to get people to use the bus instead of private modes of transport. Private modes of transport are far better simply because they're infinitely faster. Yesterday coming home from Gallions Reach Tesco I managed to get home in 5 minutes from pulling out of the car park to backing up into my space at home, consistently obeying all the speed limits. If I did this on a bus then chances are the bus wouldn't have even have arrived at the Tesco, then let alone needing to stop at all the stops on the way and then deviating off before coming back to where I need it to be. So it's a question of even if that bus had nice leather seats, had USB points, had a nice looking floor that I'd have not even batted an eyelid to actually using it because of simply how inefficient the journey is. This then all gets underpinned by the fact that London will always be London, I've lost track of the amount of times the stop bells off the 86s Tridents would end up in my school playground because someone got bored and screwed and yanked them off the bus as a joke. Imagine if you did something like that with those rear tip up seats that GNE have, someone would screw them off as a joke and it'll end up getting thrown around in a school playground somewhere. We've all probably seen the TikTok of how once a load of handles from the upper deck of an MHV got stolen right in the middle of a bus journey. I don't think passengers will care about the colour of the bus in the end either for the reasons I've mentioned. Really the answer lies in bus priority, make me want to use the 366 to Tesco instead of driving. Make me want to use the 238 or 262 to Westfield instead of driving. Why would I pay £3.10 for a bus when the parking charge is only £3 and the car park entrance is slap bang in the middle of the shopping centre. Buses need to be seen as the faster option, the more convenient option, the easier option. Many round the corner links are just simply missing, if I'm in Canning Town and need to get to a local Currys for example, on a bus I'd need to get a 115 to Poplar and then a D8 to Canary Wharf to get to the Geographically closest one or a 69 to Stratford then a walk into Westfield. While with a car it's just a case of jumping on the A13, head to Canary Wharf and park in the car park they have available there. I needed to go to Whitechapel at 8pm the other day, I had the option of the car, tube or bus. Took 20min to drive there from Barking, whereas on a bus I'd have needed to take a 5 to Canning Town and then a 309 to Bethnal Green, that would have taken three times as long. Even if the bus was more comfortable than my car, which it probably wouldn't be, I'd have not used it due to the ridiculous time it took. Your point on links & priority is completely correct, some links really lack for example and as a result some routes get super busy (for example the W6) and you think well why bother using it.
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Post by snowman on May 29, 2022 20:42:11 GMT
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Post by SILENCED on May 29, 2022 20:47:33 GMT
If the is the best they can do prediction, they might as well all resign en masse
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Post by redbus on May 29, 2022 21:01:00 GMT
If the is the best they can do prediction, they might as well all resign en masse So if that is the prediction, then this is my challenge, what are the Mayor and TfL going to do to not just stop this prediction coming true, but actually increase average speeds instead. I'll set them a stretching target of 12 mph!!!
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Post by southlondonbus on May 29, 2022 21:22:34 GMT
If the is the best they can do prediction, they might as well all resign en masse So if that is the prediction, then this is my challenge, what are the Mayor and TfL going to do to not just stop this prediction coming true, but actually increase average speeds instead. I'll set them a stretching target of 12 mph!!! Just allowing buses to keep up with traffic rather them having so much running time would help. The 25 off-peak timetable has 90 mins journey time. Granted its not just round the corner from City Thameslink to Ilford but I still feel 70 to 75 mins would be more realistic and it wouldn't have yo crawl through the City then hang back at stops on the approach to Stratford.
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Post by WH241 on May 29, 2022 21:33:33 GMT
So if that is the prediction, then this is my challenge, what are the Mayor and TfL going to do to not just stop this prediction coming true, but actually increase average speeds instead. I'll set them a stretching target of 12 mph!!! Just allowing buses to keep up with traffic rather them having so much running time would help. The 25 off-peak timetable has 90 mins journey time. Granted its not just round the corner from City Thameslink to Ilford but I still feel 70 to 75 mins would be more realistic and it wouldn't have yo crawl through the City then hang back at stops on the approach to Stratford. Have you ever seen what the 25 has to deal with along the Romford Road especially the Manor Park area near the A406! If you want less running time in the City the route would probably need to be split.
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