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Post by greenboy on Jun 7, 2021 14:25:00 GMT
What are examples of said problems? The main reason the Circle line was 'unravelled' was to provide a more frequent service between Hammersmith and Edgware Road. Paddington station on the Hammersmith Line was one station that TfL thought was in particular need of a frequency enhancement and also the opening of Westfield bolstered the case. On the other hand stopping all trains from High Street Kensington at Edgware Road was a retrograde step and arguably drove more passengers to Paddington station on the Hammersmith Line as they would have to change trains at Edgware Road if they went to Paddington Station Circle Line. I'll leave the question of convenience of the two Paddington stations aside along with the interchange to the Bakerloo line. The other argument was 'unravelling' the Circle line was that it was difficult to run reliably and when there were issues it took longer to get back on its feet. To be honest I haven't seen a meaningful improvement in recovery time when things go wrong and also previously when it was a true Circle line issues may only have impacted one direction. ATO once complete should make all four sub-surface lines a lot more reliable, but to what extent train capacity will be increased is another matter. If you could increase capacity on the top half of the Circle line then you could re-instate the Circle Line as a loop and keep frequency improvements on the Hammersmith section. ATO should be reliable enough to make that achievable if the extra capacity were there but I don't think it is. Remember all the junctions around the Circle line are 'flat junctions', so the trains have to cross over one another on the points and that limits the number of trains that can be scheduled. Likewise I haven't seen any improvement in the Circle Line since the change, in fact I thought the change caused more problems than it solved, particularly the loss of service from High Street Kensington to stations beyond Edgware Road.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 7, 2021 14:41:02 GMT
The main reason the Circle line was 'unravelled' was to provide a more frequent service between Hammersmith and Edgware Road. Paddington station on the Hammersmith Line was one station that TfL thought was in particular need of a frequency enhancement and also the opening of Westfield bolstered the case. On the other hand stopping all trains from High Street Kensington at Edgware Road was a retrograde step and arguably drove more passengers to Paddington station on the Hammersmith Line as they would have to change trains at Edgware Road if they went to Paddington Station Circle Line. I'll leave the question of convenience of the two Paddington stations aside along with the interchange to the Bakerloo line. The other argument was 'unravelling' the Circle line was that it was difficult to run reliably and when there were issues it took longer to get back on its feet. To be honest I haven't seen a meaningful improvement in recovery time when things go wrong and also previously when it was a true Circle line issues may only have impacted one direction. ATO once complete should make all four sub-surface lines a lot more reliable, but to what extent train capacity will be increased is another matter. If you could increase capacity on the top half of the Circle line then you could re-instate the Circle Line as a loop and keep frequency improvements on the Hammersmith section. ATO should be reliable enough to make that achievable if the extra capacity were there but I don't think it is. Remember all the junctions around the Circle line are 'flat junctions', so the trains have to cross over one another on the points and that limits the number of trains that can be scheduled. Likewise I haven't seen any improvement in the Circle Line since the change, in fact I thought the change caused more problems than it solved, particularly the loss of service from High Street Kensington to stations beyond Edgware Road. I thought you can change trains at Edgware Road?
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Post by joefrombow on Jun 7, 2021 18:17:00 GMT
It’s similar on the SSR. Any wheelslip activity is sent from the train to the system and the technical staff monitoring the equipment gets alerts in the control room. Then the technician and control room management agree if the rate should be changed. The wheelslip issue is why the 31mph speed is in on the Hammersmith branch heading east. For anyone wondering about the odd speed amounts, the system works them out in KPH and then converts it back to MPH, the Hammersmith line 31mph being 50kph for example. we work in Kph, always get strange looks when I tell people our fastest line speed is "80kph." Where on the DLR does it get up to 80KPH 😮 ? I know many moons ago Devons Road to All Saints used to be the fastest section is this now between King George & Woolwich ? Also the DLRs ATO system seems to run pretty much very reliable everytime I use it with not many signal failures and not many Engineering works for how often the trains run , it's a shame this system can't be used on the SSR lines .
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Post by ThinLizzy on Jun 7, 2021 20:56:52 GMT
we work in Kph, always get strange looks when I tell people our fastest line speed is "80kph." Where on the DLR does it get up to 80KPH 😮 ? I know many moons ago Devons Road to All Saints used to be the fastest section is this now between King George & Woolwich ? Also the DLRs ATO system seems to run pretty much very reliable everytime I use it with not many signal failures and not many Engineering works for how often the trains run , it's a shame this system can't be used on the SSR lines . KGV to Woolwich is the fastest section, can still get a good speed between Westferry and Shadwell/ Royal Mint Street junction
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Post by richard on Jun 7, 2021 22:11:49 GMT
Likewise I haven't seen any improvement in the Circle Line since the change, in fact I thought the change caused more problems than it solved, particularly the loss of service from High Street Kensington to stations beyond Edgware Road. I thought you can change trains at Edgware Road? You still can some circles do terminate there and do the "traditional" Circle service
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Post by thesquirrels on Jun 7, 2021 23:00:34 GMT
While I do thing your three lines proposal could work, it in the grand scheme is unfeasible. The Metropolitan Line being split into National Rail networks would still end up inconveniencing quite a few people. I did mention earlier it's relatively lightly used in the Central portion, but it is still used. I imagine people could change at Baker Street, but it may not be worth it. Moving the line to Overground also brings in the problems of converting the LU lines into National Rail lines and while possible, it would probably work out to be a logistical nightmare. Might not be as complicated due to already sharing some tracks with Chiltern services. And if converted to London Overground, another option might be to cut the Piccadilly line back to Rayners Lane rather than sharing tracks. Though has worked with the Bakerloo/District sharing tracks with the Overground, and the East London line moving to the Overground network. Besides being underused towards Aldgate, I think another issue with the Metropolitan line is that a tube service is not ideal for journeys to outer stations around Amersham. Existing Chiltern services are useful alongside, but have limited capacity with far fewer carriages than the S8 stock, likely due to use beyond Amersham. Though unlikely to happen, my suggestion would be to have Rickmansworth as more of a hub station, being within the M25 and probably the furthest station where a stopping service is appropriate. The station would need to be relocated slightly to the east, alongside the station car park, with the existing sidings used for terminating platforms. This would segregate TFL stopping services, with additional Chiltern services introduced alongside towards Amersham. This role of Rickmansworth as a hub would also take over from Moor Park, which doesn't require as many services here. Another option might also be to have a shuttle service between Watford and Chesham, at 2 or 3 tph. The Watford branch is lightly used, with much faster services to London at Watford Junction. Passengers nearer to Watford tube and Croxley would be able to change at Rickmansworth for faster services into Marylebone or Baker Street. In this case, TFL services could provide 8tph from Baker Street to Northwood, with 4tph continuing to Moor Park and Rickmansworth. Regardless, I also think it might be worth renaming Watford tube to something like Watford West, as the current name could be misleading given the distance from the town centre. The pre-2010 arrangement of comfortable transverse seats on an all-day fast service worked perfectly well for stations north of Rickmansworth, and had done so for the previous 49 years. I'm not sure a rewrite of the entire Met/Chiltern relationship is necessary to return to that, especially as Chiltern into Marylebone relies on polluting diesels - unless there is a suggestion to electrify into Marylebone, in which case the costs really do outweigh the benefits being touted. It is worth noting that Rickmansworth to Chalfont merits an 8tph service in the peaks and (pre covid at least) passenger numbers very much justify that level of service - the operation up there is very heavily skewed towards commuters, and many of those are bound for Finchley Road (for the Jubilee) or the City. I am a part-time Amersham commuter so I get to see all of this in action frequently (or did, until covid - the numbers are finally beginning to climb again). Croxley and Watford get station numbers comparable to the ends of the Central line so breaking their link into London seems unnecessarily punitive when the curve would just sit there unused while Croxley commuters get left to fight it out for another stopping train at Rickmansworth, or stand on a fast train from Amersham or Aylesbury. They would rightly be annoyed at such a proposal! Chesham can't support more than 2tph in any case due to the long single track section north of Chalfont. Chesham, also, has seen a gradual but significant growth in passenger numbers since the link into London went all-day, drawing passengers not just from Amersham but also, to an extent, BR at Berkhamsted as it trounces London Midland in the price stakes. This is new revenue for LU and it would easily slide away if the direct link was broken. Give the top of the Met an all day fast service and comfier seats and we would be happy. The problem becomes one of how to provide Northwood etc with the 8tph it needs without using the Amersham/Chesham services - this would need some engineering of its own with extra turnback facilities somewhere appropriate.
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Post by Alex on Jun 8, 2021 1:57:44 GMT
KGV to Woolwich is the fastest section, can still get a good speed between Westferry and Shadwell/ Royal Mint Street junction Was the speed between KGV and Woolwich turned down a few years ago? I’m certain I remember the trains going faster and swaying all over the place and then one day it seemed more gentle. With the SSR, I came into work today and found the speed limits on the Hammersmith branch mentioned earlier (which have been there since SMA0.5 - Hammersmith to Latimer Road, back in March 2019) have been taken away! Max speed of 43mph was seen, including 41mph between Goldhawk Road and Shepherds Bush Market which is remarkable for such a short section : 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 11:21:50 GMT
Why are these lines being closed so often? Really annoying. Is it staff shortage, control room issues... It needs sorting out.
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Post by Alex on Jun 10, 2021 11:46:42 GMT
Is it staff shortage, control room issues. You’re in the right area - shortage in the control room. The priority seems to be to cover the daytime weekday shifts, as I understand it today and tomorrow are early close but Saturday is the advertised service (Circle only - no H&C because of engineering work). There’s another ProBoards forum (initials DD) where this has been discussed at length and there’s a lot of info there.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 13, 2021 9:59:34 GMT
Slightly off-topic what is up with these lines reliability. The service is appalling. Over the past few months especially evenings there has been cancellations due to staff cuts (likely from furlough) then we get the constant signal failures thrown in between and no evening service because lack of controllers. Then after England match we have what appears to be many staff cuts, then now we get flooding which has then bought along service cuts and signal failures.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 3, 2021 0:35:12 GMT
Also I have realise over the past few months there appears to be an Eastbound speed restriction between Moorgate and Liverpool St where the train seems to coast about 10-15 mph. Going back in the opposite direction it does not appear to be speed restricted and trains go normal westbound. It cannot understand why it is so slow there and it seems to now be all times of day.
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