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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 6, 2021 14:27:55 GMT
It's a shame TFL is not promoting it's transport than how they used to. More like now they want people off public transport to promote cycling and walking instead with all of those LTNs they are using to somewhat force push for those things. TFL are really financially unhealthy with all of the debt they have to pay and driving away from profit from its existing network. This is my issue with public bodies with TFL, they act too much like a charity than a business with the promotion of people away from there profit making services by following the government or political influence. Cycling and walking (a.k.a. "active travel") are meant to replace short car journeys*, not journeys made by public transport which are already regarded as sustainable. Although promotion of active travel does mean that some short bus journeys may switch to cycling and walking. Ultimately though TfL is not a commercial undertaking - although it has to operate in an economically efficient way, its objectives are social not commercial. * in my book this includes journeys made in minicabs including Uber. Someone needs to tell TfL that British weather doesn't persuade people to walk, and no matter what they do that aspect won't change. If I needed to pop to Asda now as this huge dark cloud is forming above me I'd certainly opt for the 2min drive over the walk.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 6, 2021 14:32:43 GMT
Supply and demand whilst I think the demand definitely outweighs the supply (at the moment due to covid) this is the future unfortunately , why do people want to wait ages for a crowded late bus crawling along at 20mph on a empty road in the middle of the night when they can get a Uber (and crawl along at 30mph to keep the electric mode going) and be home quicker and safer ?less risk of being mugged or attacked etc . All of these LTN's , restricting buses to the speed limit , cutting major routes into smaller routes (though not so much on the night network ) all adds up to make people think why get a bus when for the price of a pint (in some places) you get a ride straight to your doorstep . I think Tfl need to take a new strategy to get people back on the buses USB charging , advertising routes and links , route branding ,company sponsorship of routes/bus stations (Barclays Stratford Bus Station), WiFi , advertise or brand the new electric buses on routes and make new routes or look at new ways to make revenue i.e extend some routes cross border where there is money to be made but seems to me they aren't interested anymore or have lost their way compared to the early 2000s when there was a lot of focus to get people back on board , I don't think they will disappear how he says in the article but it is going that way wether we like it or not . I don't think Londoners want USB ports I have yet to see a passenger use them. All that is wanted is a bus that turns up and not constantly held at stops being regulated. Services favor the operators at the moment instead of passengers. Most buses in London don't have them anyway yet they're pretty much standard everywhere else. Although the battery life of phones has improved people are still going to find themselves running low on battery on occasions and it's handy to have a quick boost whilst travelling. I've seen plenty of people using them on trains in and around London and it's just another example of TfL standards lagging behind.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 6, 2021 14:52:15 GMT
It's a shame TFL is not promoting it's transport than how they used to. More like now they want people off public transport to promote cycling and walking instead with all of those LTNs they are using to somewhat force push for those things. TFL are really financially unhealthy with all of the debt they have to pay and driving away from profit from its existing network. This is my issue with public bodies with TFL, they act too much like a charity than a business with the promotion of people away from there profit making services by following the government or political influence. Whilst I think it's commendable that TfL are promoting walking and cycling it shouldn't be to the detriment of public transport.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 6, 2021 15:07:51 GMT
I don't think Londoners want USB ports I have yet to see a passenger use them. All that is wanted is a bus that turns up and not constantly held at stops being regulated. Services favor the operators at the moment instead of passengers. Most buses in London don't have them anyway yet they're pretty much standard everywhere else. Although the battery life of phones has improved people are still going to find themselves running low on battery on occasions and it's handy to have a quick boost whilst travelling. I've seen plenty of people using them on trains in and around London and it's just another example of TfL standards lagging behind. Unfortunately standardisation is killing TFL
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Post by vjaska on Jun 6, 2021 15:42:32 GMT
Most buses in London don't have them anyway yet they're pretty much standard everywhere else. Although the battery life of phones has improved people are still going to find themselves running low on battery on occasions and it's handy to have a quick boost whilst travelling. I've seen plenty of people using them on trains in and around London and it's just another example of TfL standards lagging behind. Unfortunately standardisation is killing TFL It’s not standardisation that is the problem, it’s TfL’s inability to see blindingly obvious issues like congestion, an out of date vehicle spec, over regulation that is the main issue
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 6, 2021 15:55:42 GMT
Unfortunately standardisation is killing TFL It’s not standardisation that is the problem, it’s TfL’s inability to see blindingly obvious issues like congestion, an out of date vehicle spec, over regulation that is the main issue Absolutely those are other issues that should definitely be considered but sometimes standardisation can also be a problem so for example (personally) I think certain parts of services or certain services shouldn't run past a certain time - for example up until the Highbury Corner redevelopment I felt that whilst the Highbury Barn-Holloway link was definitely appreciated plus when you saw the 4 & 19 leaving towards Finsbury Park full during the daytime and providing a bus service for more local journeys, I didn't think for example there was a need for the 263 to serve Highbury Grove say after about 9pm and for it to terminate at Highbury Corner. Small little snippets like that. I won't however go with the regularly mentioned Newington Green - London Bridge stretch on the 21, as that is definitely needed by the sounds of things given how busy the 43 & 141 are leaving London Bridge.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 6, 2021 16:00:49 GMT
It’s not standardisation that is the problem, it’s TfL’s inability to see blindingly obvious issues like congestion, an out of date vehicle spec, over regulation that is the main issue Absolutely those are other issues that should definitely be considered but sometimes standardisation can also be a problem so for example (personally) I think certain parts of services or certain services shouldn't run past a certain time - for example up until the Highbury Corner redevelopment I felt that whilst the Highbury Barn-Holloway link was definitely appreciated plus when you saw the 4 & 19 leaving towards Finsbury Park full during the daytime and providing a bus service for more local journeys, I didn't think for example there was a need for the 263 to serve Highbury Grove say after about 9pm and for it to terminate at Highbury Corner. Small little snippets like that. I won't however go with the regularly mentioned Newington Green - London Bridge stretch on the 21, as that is definitely needed by the sounds of things given how busy the 43 & 141 are leaving London Bridge. The issue is a bus not out is a bus not making money, you need to find a balance between capacity and demand as well. If evening services were shorter, you will be spending money on buses which don't work more than a few hours each day. I believe a similar reason is why some routes such as the 61 and 412 are decker despite for most of the day they'd manage in a single, but the short period around schools will warrant deckers and its uneconomical to keep them around just for that reason, despite single deckers are cheaper to operate.
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Post by wirewiper on Jun 6, 2021 16:19:16 GMT
It’s not standardisation that is the problem, it’s TfL’s inability to see blindingly obvious issues like congestion, an out of date vehicle spec, over regulation that is the main issue Absolutely those are other issues that should definitely be considered but sometimes standardisation can also be a problem so for example (personally) I think certain parts of services or certain services shouldn't run past a certain time - for example up until the Highbury Corner redevelopment I felt that whilst the Highbury Barn-Holloway link was definitely appreciated plus when you saw the 4 & 19 leaving towards Finsbury Park full during the daytime and providing a bus service for more local journeys, I didn't think for example there was a need for the 263 to serve Highbury Grove say after about 9pm and for it to terminate at Highbury Corner. Small little snippets like that. I won't however go with the regularly mentioned Newington Green - London Bridge stretch on the 21, as that is definitely needed by the sounds of things given how busy the 43 & 141 are leaving London Bridge. Indeed, capacity issues on the 141 were why the 21 was extended beyond Moorgate to Newington Green in the first place. I'm not a fan of lopping bits off the network during the evenings, Londoners are not in the habit of checking timetables and may not appreciate that a particular route no longer operates after 21.00. Standardisation of routes instills confidence in the network which is important if you are wanting to encourage use. Obviously there are infrequent routes with low usage that sensibly are exceptions to this rule, but there is no good reason for most high-frequency routes not to operate along their full length throughout the operating day.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 6, 2021 16:34:20 GMT
Absolutely those are other issues that should definitely be considered but sometimes standardisation can also be a problem so for example (personally) I think certain parts of services or certain services shouldn't run past a certain time - for example up until the Highbury Corner redevelopment I felt that whilst the Highbury Barn-Holloway link was definitely appreciated plus when you saw the 4 & 19 leaving towards Finsbury Park full during the daytime and providing a bus service for more local journeys, I didn't think for example there was a need for the 263 to serve Highbury Grove say after about 9pm and for it to terminate at Highbury Corner. Small little snippets like that. I won't however go with the regularly mentioned Newington Green - London Bridge stretch on the 21, as that is definitely needed by the sounds of things given how busy the 43 & 141 are leaving London Bridge. Indeed, capacity issues on the 141 were why the 21 was extended beyond Moorgate to Newington Green in the first place. I'm not a fan of lopping bits off the network during the evenings, Londoners are not in the habit of checking timetables and may not appreciate that a particular route no longer operates after 21.00. Standardisation of routes instills confidence in the network which is important if you are wanting to encourage use. Obviously there are infrequent routes with low usage that sensibly are exceptions to this rule, but there is no good reason for most high-frequency routes not to operate along their full length throughout the operating day. I think all that was actually needed was some peak hour extras on the 141. Standardisation is fine up to a point but TfL have gone totally over the top with it.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 6, 2021 19:05:21 GMT
It’s not standardisation that is the problem, it’s TfL’s inability to see blindingly obvious issues like congestion, an out of date vehicle spec, over regulation that is the main issue Absolutely those are other issues that should definitely be considered but sometimes standardisation can also be a problem so for example (personally) I think certain parts of services or certain services shouldn't run past a certain time - for example up until the Highbury Corner redevelopment I felt that whilst the Highbury Barn-Holloway link was definitely appreciated plus when you saw the 4 & 19 leaving towards Finsbury Park full during the daytime and providing a bus service for more local journeys, I didn't think for example there was a need for the 263 to serve Highbury Grove say after about 9pm and for it to terminate at Highbury Corner. Small little snippets like that. I won't however go with the regularly mentioned Newington Green - London Bridge stretch on the 21, as that is definitely needed by the sounds of things given how busy the 43 & 141 are leaving London Bridge. That sort of standardisation is perfectly fine and makes the network easier to understand for people rather than start cutting routes short of their destination at certain times.
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Post by WH241 on Jun 6, 2021 19:13:33 GMT
Absolutely those are other issues that should definitely be considered but sometimes standardisation can also be a problem so for example (personally) I think certain parts of services or certain services shouldn't run past a certain time - for example up until the Highbury Corner redevelopment I felt that whilst the Highbury Barn-Holloway link was definitely appreciated plus when you saw the 4 & 19 leaving towards Finsbury Park full during the daytime and providing a bus service for more local journeys, I didn't think for example there was a need for the 263 to serve Highbury Grove say after about 9pm and for it to terminate at Highbury Corner. Small little snippets like that. I won't however go with the regularly mentioned Newington Green - London Bridge stretch on the 21, as that is definitely needed by the sounds of things given how busy the 43 & 141 are leaving London Bridge. That sort of standardisation is perfectly fine and makes the network easier to understand for people rather than start cutting routes short of their destination at certain times. I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember :
25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 6, 2021 19:20:39 GMT
That sort of standardisation is perfectly fine and makes the network easier to understand for people rather than start cutting routes short of their destination at certain times. I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember : 25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
I remember how it was back then and it’s not something I’d like to see return - for example, the 319 only ran beyond St Leonard’s Church to BN during shopping hours in the 90’s but yet people have asked for a night link on several occasions in recent years. Even if it’s easier through apps, what actual benefit will you get? Your not going to save much money plus not everyone uses the apps anyway hence why people start asking the drivers questions.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 6, 2021 19:38:00 GMT
I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember : 25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
I remember how it was back then and it’s not something I’d like to see return - for example, the 319 only ran beyond St Leonard’s Church to BN during shopping hours in the 90’s but yet people have asked for a night link on several occasions in recent years. Even if it’s easier through apps, what actual benefit will you get? Your not going to save much money plus not everyone uses the apps anyway hence why people start asking the drivers questions. I think it's also harder to pinpoint when things like shopping hours are. Some people these days shop on the way home from work in the evening, some on their lunch breaks at work while some go right before closing. I don't even know personally what I'd class as shopping hours. Then you have the other problem which are evening extensions, do you standardise a time when evening extensions start? Imagine the slick a driver would get if the evening service has to get turned early to its normal destination. Then not to mention it just makes planning a route home that much harder. Even if you use an app and it tells you to use the 115 before a certain time, or the 15 after a certain time, or shows both routes together side by side people are more likely to get confused and this is the sort of slight persuasion someone is going to need to take an Uber instead. I think the standardisation is the strongest part of London's bus network, you know what you're getting far in advance. There's very few variations we deal with at the moment, three types of routes. Normal routes, 24 hour routes and night routes. These are relatively easy as each group follows the exact same format. There are a few quirks, such as the B12(?) which swaps direction on its loop halfway through the day and the 686 which I think is the only London route to have branches but these are aimed at local people. People who travel like standardisation, especially people, of which there's now an increasing number that don't like timing themselves while out on a night out. I can't imagine it being popular having to leave early on a night out because you need to get the last bus on a route before its routing changes for the evening, this is why Uber will then end up getting an extra passenger. People in London don't need variation, people in London don't need bells and whistles on buses. People need buses that are of an adequate comfort but a network that is fast, frequent and reliable. The bus network needs to revolve around them, not their life revolving around the bus times.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 6, 2021 19:49:59 GMT
I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember : 25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
I remember how it was back then and it’s not something I’d like to see return - for example, the 319 only ran beyond St Leonard’s Church to BN during shopping hours in the 90’s but yet people have asked for a night link on several occasions in recent years. Even if it’s easier through apps, what actual benefit will you get? Your not going to save much money plus not everyone uses the apps anyway hence why people start asking the drivers questions. I definitely understand the problem with shopping hours extensions, that to me is illogical and confusing but perhaps writing on the bus stop timetable saying (263: NO SERVICE HERE AFTER 2100) may not be the hardest of things to implement but I accept we all have different stances and that's okay.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 6, 2021 19:51:18 GMT
I remember how it was back then and it’s not something I’d like to see return - for example, the 319 only ran beyond St Leonard’s Church to BN during shopping hours in the 90’s but yet people have asked for a night link on several occasions in recent years. Even if it’s easier through apps, what actual benefit will you get? Your not going to save much money plus not everyone uses the apps anyway hence why people start asking the drivers questions. I think it's also harder to pinpoint when things like shopping hours are. Some people these days shop on the way home from work in the evening, some on their lunch breaks at work while some go right before closing. I don't even know personally what I'd class as shopping hours. Then you have the other problem which are evening extensions, do you standardise a time when evening extensions start? Imagine the slick a driver would get if the evening service has to get turned early to its normal destination. Then not to mention it just makes planning a route home that much harder. Even if you use an app and it tells you to use the 115 before a certain time, or the 15 after a certain time, or shows both routes together side by side people are more likely to get confused and this is the sort of slight persuasion someone is going to need to take an Uber instead. I think the standardisation is the strongest part of London's bus network, you know what you're getting far in advance. There's very few variations we deal with at the moment, three types of routes. Normal routes, 24 hour routes and night routes. These are relatively easy as each group follows the exact same format. There are a few quirks, such as the B12(?) which swaps direction on its loop halfway through the day and the 686 which I think is the only London route to have branches but these are aimed at local people. People who travel like standardisation, especially people, of which there's now an increasing number that don't like timing themselves while out on a night out. I can't imagine it being popular having to leave early on a night out because you need to get the last bus on a route before its routing changes for the evening, this is why Uber will then end up getting an extra passenger. People in London don't need variation, people in London don't need bells and whistles on buses. People need buses that are of an adequate comfort but a network that is fast, frequent and reliable. The bus network needs to revolve around them, not their life revolving around the bus times. I think the U2 is another example round Hillingdon where at some point instead of going round the houses on that certain stretch near the A40, it goes direct via the 278.
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