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Post by WH241 on Jun 6, 2021 19:57:13 GMT
Just to be clear the 262 example was just to show how routes varied I'm not suggesting shopping hour buses return!
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Post by greenboy on Jun 6, 2021 20:19:37 GMT
That sort of standardisation is perfectly fine and makes the network easier to understand for people rather than start cutting routes short of their destination at certain times. I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember :
25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
The 25 is a good example of making the best of resources by going via the Tower of London at weekends when it was busy and the city was dead and I don't recall too many people being confused by the arrangement. A couple that have been suggested before, the 137 could go to Crystal Palace in the evening as the N137 does and no need for the 417 in the evening...... the 151 doesn't need to go to Worcester Park in the evening, the 213 and X26 are more than adequate, and could just run between Wallington and Sutton. Endless possibilities where savings can be made on evening services that aren't to the detriment of passengers and as you say most people have got apps on their phone nowadays.
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Post by thesquirrels on Jun 6, 2021 20:34:04 GMT
it also does not help at times NMCC uses some very long diversions which heavily impacts the route. That Muswell HIll area is a no go zone. It is also hampered by drivers in cars using apps telling them various short cuts away from traffic. Absolutely, I really have to lmao and crease at the planning decision by Haringey Council to add a low traffic neighborhood in the Bowes area when pre pandemic Brownlow Road would be at a stand still between the North Circular & Bounds Green Station and at the junction with Colney Hatch Lane just east of Muswell Hill. I don't know how the 102 has survived as long as it has to be honest, not to mention Temple Fortune is an absolute travesty all the way to Henlys, the traffic up High Rd E Finchley towards Muswell Hill since the cycle lane was introduced plus it battling the North Circular between Bounds Green & Edmonton. Plus you have even more irritating things such as the Henlys Corner traffic light system, you can sometimes be say waiting for up to 10 minutes because of how bad it is. I wouldn't call Muswell Hill a no go zone but I'd say traffic can be especially bad due to there being no tube station in a very high residential area + you combine it with neighbouring Crouch End & Alexandra Park. Now I look forward to the next set of ideas regarding the 102. I've already jinxed myself Unless plans have changed, the next part of the LTN on Enfield's side involves putting a bus gate on Brownlow Road and blocking it to through motor traffic.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 6, 2021 21:00:45 GMT
I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember : 25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
The 25 is a good example of making the best of resources by going via the Tower of London at weekends when it was busy and the city was dead and I don't recall too many people being confused by the arrangement. A couple that have been suggested before, the 137 could go to Crystal Palace in the evening as the N137 does and no need for the 417 in the evening...... the 151 doesn't need to go to Worcester Park in the evening, the 213 and X26 are more than adequate, and could just run between Wallington and Sutton. Endless possibilities where savings can be made on evening services that aren't to the detriment of passengers and as you say most people have got apps on their phone nowadays. Realistically, your saving very little if anything at all with these sort of changes not to mention that traffic doesn’t always die down until quite late on in some areas so it’s not as simple as it might look. The minute you risk unraveling the standardisation of routes and you also risk confusing passengers particularly a sizeable number who don’t use apps and potentially you drive them away from the network.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jun 6, 2021 21:32:49 GMT
That sort of standardisation is perfectly fine and makes the network easier to understand for people rather than start cutting routes short of their destination at certain times. I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember : 25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
Up untill 2002 there were far fewer routes into the City. The 23 cut to Aldwych (still had the 11/26 to Lpool St) the 17 and 46 to Kings Cross and the 21 just to LB. Even today many retailers don't open branches at the weekends and Bank Holidays and trains from Epsom/Sutton don't run to London Bridge at Weekends and the Waterloo&City line dosent run for example yet every bus runs into it. Would it really be that confusing for some of the City routes to terminate on the outside? Would it really be that bad if the 414 provided the extra capacity up Fulham Road just Monday to Fridays except evenings.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 21:41:42 GMT
I understand the need of standardisation but makes you wonder how people used to manage not too far back in the 90s and early 00. Some examples I remember : 25 Via Tower Hill on Saturday and Sunday 147 Extended from Keir Hardie to Stratford 262 to Canning town (Mon - Fri Shopping Hours) 15 to East Ham Evenings
Really it should be easier now to vary routes at certain times with information at hand on apps.
Up untill 2002 there were far fewer routes into the City. The 23 cut to Aldwych (still had the 11/26 to Lpool St) the 17 and 46 to Kings Cross and the 21 just to LB. Even today many retailers don't open branches at the weekends and Bank Holidays and trains from Epsom/Sutton don't run to London Bridge at Weekends and the Waterloo&City line dosent run for example yet every bus runs into it. Would it really be that confusing for some of the City routes to terminate on the outside? Would it really be that bad if the 414 provided the extra capacity up Fulham Road just Monday to Fridays except evenings. There is a half hourly direct train with no changes from Sutton to London Bridge on a Saturday but not Sunday.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jun 6, 2021 22:28:42 GMT
Ok but my point it there are many examples on the tube and train network that everything doesn't have to be 7 days a week into the City when it's not a 24/7 sort of area.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Jun 8, 2021 12:42:30 GMT
Uber is out of control there are far too many drivers on the road competing for passengers. The standard of driving is getting really dangerous where the cars are rushing to the next fare. Can see things getting worse in the future especially if more companies come on the scene. The demand for Uber like services is huge in London. Personally I think the mayor should seek to raise a direct tax from any Uber drop off or pick up within a London borough. Minimum 50p per journey and like Ubers 20p per journey green fund it would probably not deter those of us who see Uber as a better option to travel with. At least 300,000 trips are made by taxis and private hire vehicles in London each day(and that's a 2014 figure: www.london.gov.uk/about-us/london-assembly/london-assembly-publications/future-proof-taxi-and-private-hire-services). A 70p levy on all journeys would being in well over £700m - the equivalent of TfL's old government grant. Want some more dosh? A fiver a day on hotel rooms (160,000 media.londonandpartners.com/news/london-hotel-industry-set-for-record-year-in-2020) at 70 per cent occupancy would bring you £200m. The tools are there to help TfL solve its problems, but the Westminster government won't devolve basic powers that are commonplace in normal countries.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 8, 2021 13:09:39 GMT
The demand for Uber like services is huge in London. Personally I think the mayor should seek to raise a direct tax from any Uber drop off or pick up within a London borough. Minimum 50p per journey and like Ubers 20p per journey green fund it would probably not deter those of us who see Uber as a better option to travel with. At least 300,000 trips are made by taxis and private hire vehicles in London each day(and that's a 2014 figure: www.london.gov.uk/about-us/london-assembly/london-assembly-publications/future-proof-taxi-and-private-hire-services). A 70p levy on all journeys would being in well over £700m - the equivalent of TfL's old government grant. Want some more dosh? A fiver a day on hotel rooms (160,000 media.londonandpartners.com/news/london-hotel-industry-set-for-record-year-in-2020) at 70 per cent occupancy would bring you £200m. The tools are there to help TfL solve its problems, but the Westminster government won't devolve basic powers that are commonplace in normal countries. And nobody is going to object? I think there would be absolute outrage at any suggestion that hotel/uber customers should have to pay to get TfL out of this mess.
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 8, 2021 13:33:37 GMT
And nobody is going to object? I think there would be absolute outrage at any suggestion that hotel/uber customers should have to pay to get TfL out of this mess. You go abroad you quite often or not have to pay local taxes .... so could see that working ... should be something international hotel chains are familiar with. The trouble with electric vehicles isn great for environment, but bring in very little money in way of revenues. With the push to promote green cars, revenues will greatly decrease, Road tax, fuel duty, congestion charges, unless after years of saying we are taxing pollution, politicians change their minds and decide new reasons to demand taxation.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 8, 2021 14:24:55 GMT
And nobody is going to object? I think there would be absolute outrage at any suggestion that hotel/uber customers should have to pay to get TfL out of this mess. You go abroad you quite often or not have to pay local taxes .... so could see that working ... should be something international hotel chains are familiar with. The trouble with electric vehicles isn great for environment, but bring in very little money in way of revenues. With the push to promote green cars, revenues will greatly decrease, Road tax, fuel duty, congestion charges, unless after years of saying we are taxing pollution, politicians change their minds and decide new reasons to demand taxation. I can see road tax returning in the future for Zero Emission cars, once they form the majority of cars. Someone has to pay for the road maintenance and it's up to the car users, although I am in favour of bikes also being charged for road tax too when they are initially purchased as they use the roads as well.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 8, 2021 15:13:41 GMT
And nobody is going to object? I think there would be absolute outrage at any suggestion that hotel/uber customers should have to pay to get TfL out of this mess. You go abroad you quite often or not have to pay local taxes .... so could see that working ... should be something international hotel chains are familiar with. The trouble with electric vehicles isn great for environment, but bring in very little money in way of revenues. With the push to promote green cars, revenues will greatly decrease, Road tax, fuel duty, congestion charges, unless after years of saying we are taxing pollution, politicians change their minds and decide new reasons to demand taxation. If it replaced the congestion charge or something else perhaps.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 8, 2021 15:15:29 GMT
You go abroad you quite often or not have to pay local taxes .... so could see that working ... should be something international hotel chains are familiar with. The trouble with electric vehicles isn great for environment, but bring in very little money in way of revenues. With the push to promote green cars, revenues will greatly decrease, Road tax, fuel duty, congestion charges, unless after years of saying we are taxing pollution, politicians change their minds and decide new reasons to demand taxation. I can see road tax returning in the future for Zero Emission cars, once they form the majority of cars. Someone has to pay for the road maintenance and it's up to the car users, although I am in favour of bikes also being charged for road tax too when they are initially purchased as they use the roads as well. But not all bikes will be used on the road......... same principle as red diesel for vehicles not being used on the road.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 10, 2021 21:48:02 GMT
Uber is out of control there are far too many drivers on the road competing for passengers. The standard of driving is getting really dangerous where the cars are rushing to the next fare. Can see things getting worse in the future especially if more companies come on the scene. Supply and demand whilst I think the demand definitely outweighs the supply (at the moment due to covid) this is the future unfortunately , why do people want to wait ages for a crowded late bus crawling along at 20mph on a empty road in the middle of the night when they can get a Uber (and crawl along at 30mph to keep the electric mode going) and be home quicker and safer ?less risk of being mugged or attacked etc . All of these LTN's , restricting buses to the speed limit , cutting major routes into smaller routes (though not so much on the night network ) all adds up to make people think why get a bus when for the price of a pint (in some places) you get a ride straight to your doorstep . I think Tfl need to take a new strategy to get people back on the buses USB charging , advertising routes and links , route branding ,company sponsorship of routes/bus stations (Barclays Stratford Bus Station), WiFi , advertise or brand the new electric buses on routes and make new routes or look at new ways to make revenue i.e extend some routes cross border where there is money to be made but seems to me they aren't interested anymore or have lost their way compared to the early 2000s when there was a lot of focus to get people back on board , I don't think they will disappear how he says in the article but it is going that way wether we like it or not . The USB charging ports is a good idea, but it is not going to make me say I want to use the bus. Its down to the concept and slowness. Fast & Frequent is the only true champion of getting bums on seats. I don't see what difference an electric, hybrid or coal powered bus is going to make, after all it is down to the concept. I dont magically say I would get another route because it is electric, I just go for the route that is quickest. A lot of cross border services could be reintroduced to gain revenue.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 10, 2021 21:54:53 GMT
It's a shame TFL is not promoting it's transport than how they used to. More like now they want people off public transport to promote cycling and walking instead with all of those LTNs they are using to somewhat force push for those things. TFL are really financially unhealthy with all of the debt they have to pay and driving away from profit from its existing network. This is my issue with public bodies with TFL, they act too much like a charity than a business with the promotion of people away from there profit making services by following the government or political influence. Cycling and walking (a.k.a. "active travel") are meant to replace short car journeys*, not journeys made by public transport which are already regarded as sustainable. Although promotion of active travel does mean that some short bus journeys may switch to cycling and walking. Ultimately though TfL is not a commercial undertaking - although it has to operate in an economically efficient way, its objectives are social not commercial. * in my book this includes journeys made in minicabs including Uber. In your book they are to replace short car journeys. But in reality they are not. They have taken a chunk out of bus and tube journeys, mainly bus. Uber has grown drastically for short journeys so it shows that it is NOT working and they are "actively" shooting themselves in the foot.
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