|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 27, 2021 20:04:58 GMT
I think it's more so an issue of paying them around 50K to sit in a cab, while PSAs on the DLR earn less but no doubt do a lot more work. It'd be very unfair to slash wages, but more reasonable to make the workload match that of the salary. Doctors and nurses around the country put their lives on the line for around 30-35K. Yet tube drivers earn 50K and then throw a strop about working 4 nights in a year and then make the working class suffer. I can see why they are becoming public enemy number one very quickly. I think you would find doctors earn a lot more than £35k So on your basis then, we should also be targetting footballers who earn far more than doctors and nurses. Also politicians, the mayor, some TfL managerial positions, bankers etc as they are not putting their lives on the line and earn a lot more than £35k Forgive me if I am wrong, but do believe tube drivers are working class. This is nothing but pure hatred and jealousy that has infected the nation. The issue is not the wage, but the work/salary ratio. Why is a driver that's in a cab doing nothing most of the day earning such a high amount of money? Footballers have to put in hours of training everyday, bankers work pretty much around the clock so I'd say their pay is more justified. If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? |
|
|
|
Post by southlondon413 on Nov 27, 2021 20:34:42 GMT
Yes the average doctor salary in the UK is currently around £76k. Yes, if used on an mean average. You'll notice mode averages are far lower, junior doctors on average earn around 29K and there are far more of them. Obviously one consultant earning 100+K will skew the entire average. A doctor in specialist training earns around 40K which is still far less than a tube driver But they are still in training just a trainee tube driver earns less whilst training. As they progress in their career their earnings will increase as they take on new skills or additional specialties. Whereas a tube driver has nowhere to go once they hit that pay ceiling, yes they could become a trainer but again it has a pay ceiling with nowhere to go beyond small annual pay rises. Some doctors like politicians can maximise their earnings and go well above their pay ceilings by taking on private work, lecturing or writing books. How many beyond a niche would pay to hear or read about a tube drivers experiences. The fact is it’s like comparing apples to oranges with unlimited earning potential as they increase skill level. |
|
|
|
Post by southlondon413 on Nov 27, 2021 20:36:40 GMT
I think you would find doctors earn a lot more than £35k So on your basis then, we should also be targetting footballers who earn far more than doctors and nurses. Also politicians, the mayor, some TfL managerial positions, bankers etc as they are not putting their lives on the line and earn a lot more than £35k Forgive me if I am wrong, but do believe tube drivers are working class. This is nothing but pure hatred and jealousy that has infected the nation. The issue is not the wage, but the work/salary ratio. Why is a driver that's in a cab doing nothing most of the day earning such a high amount of money? Footballers have to put in hours of training everyday, bankers work pretty much around the clock so I'd say their pay is more justified. If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? Because in an emergency your retail worker has no responsibility to their customers whereas a tube driver is expected to do so. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Nov 27, 2021 20:53:27 GMT
If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? I wish I was getting 18k, I'd be absolutely delighted |
|
|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 27, 2021 20:56:08 GMT
The issue is not the wage, but the work/salary ratio. Why is a driver that's in a cab doing nothing most of the day earning such a high amount of money? Footballers have to put in hours of training everyday, bankers work pretty much around the clock so I'd say their pay is more justified. If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? Because in an emergency your retail worker has no responsibility to their customers whereas a tube driver is expected to do so. While a Paramedic sits on 30K, and that still doesn't negate the fact that pre-specialist doctors still earn less. I'm fine with drivers earning 50K, however not fine with them just sat doing nothing in the cab and then throwing a fit when they are asked to work 4 nights a year. |
|
|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 27, 2021 20:58:03 GMT
Yes, if used on an mean average. You'll notice mode averages are far lower, junior doctors on average earn around 29K and there are far more of them. Obviously one consultant earning 100+K will skew the entire average. A doctor in specialist training earns around 40K which is still far less than a tube driver But they are still in training just a trainee tube driver earns less whilst training. As they progress in their career their earnings will increase as they take on new skills or additional specialties. Whereas a tube driver has nowhere to go once they hit that pay ceiling, yes they could become a trainer but again it has a pay ceiling with nowhere to go beyond small annual pay rises. Some doctors like politicians can maximise their earnings and go well above their pay ceilings by taking on private work, lecturing or writing books. How many beyond a niche would pay to hear or read about a tube drivers experiences. The fact is it’s like comparing apples to oranges with unlimited earning potential as they increase skill level. "Potential" doesn't matter in this instance, you need to be paid for the sort of work you do and I'm struggling to see how sitting in a cab on an ATO line actually justifies this. |
|
|
|
Post by richard on Nov 27, 2021 21:04:32 GMT
But they are still in training just a trainee tube driver earns less whilst training. As they progress in their career their earnings will increase as they take on new skills or additional specialties. Whereas a tube driver has nowhere to go once they hit that pay ceiling, yes they could become a trainer but again it has a pay ceiling with nowhere to go beyond small annual pay rises. Some doctors like politicians can maximise their earnings and go well above their pay ceilings by taking on private work, lecturing or writing books. How many beyond a niche would pay to hear or read about a tube drivers experiences. The fact is it’s like comparing apples to oranges with unlimited earning potential as they increase skill level. "Potential" doesn't matter in this instance, you need to be paid for the sort of work you do and I'm struggling to see how sitting in a cab on an ATO line actually justifies this. They don't just sit there they go through at least 16 weeks of training before even stepping foot in a cab an average tube train can carry 1k+ passengers |
|
|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 27, 2021 21:12:23 GMT
"Potential" doesn't matter in this instance, you need to be paid for the sort of work you do and I'm struggling to see how sitting in a cab on an ATO line actually justifies this. They don't just sit there they go through at least 16 weeks of training before even stepping foot in a cab an average tube train can carry 1k+ passengers If they're not sitting there then what are they doing? On the ATO lines they are just literally sat there. If they actually walked through the train like the DLR PSAs and then took control when necessary rather than just completely being sealed off I would understand the salary. But now when they make the general public suffer they very much come across as entitled when they refuse to work 4 nights a year. |
|
|
|
Post by Alex on Nov 27, 2021 23:51:59 GMT
tangytango.proboards.com/thread/9180/night-tube-delayed?page=6For a bit of background on this see the penultimate post in this thread. It saves me writing a bit more on this one. In short, the dispute is all about LUL not sticking to their own agreements. If the staff have to play by the rules it’s only fair the company has to as well. When an agreement is made it means both sides have to abide by it, not moving the goalposts whenever it is convenient. The issue itself isn’t the addition of NT shifts, but how events recently have been handled, and how many guidelines, standards and agreements haven’t been adhered to. On BBC London News last night the presenter had to ask an LUL director the same question twice (“doesn’t this situation fall at your door because you reneged on your own agreements”) and still didn’t get a straight answer. Tom Edwards from the BBC has made it very clear to his viewers that the issue is agreements being scrapped, and even said a satisfactory solution would have been to have left things alone in the first place. Recent times are very interesting, as issues such as the fuel tanker driver shortage, supply chain driver shortage and other shortages in public transport have made many members of the public change their view. There is a growing acceptance that working people in working jobs, such as driving things, do need decent conditions and wages - the race to the bottom for employees created a lot of the problems we’ve had this year. An increasing number of people are now looking at the faults with the bosses and not the workers. As for wages and comparing to other jobs, I know all about that seeing as my mum and my wife both work for the NHS. In any sort of job role there’s a market rate - and the TfL review commissioned a while ago actually worked out LUL drivers are paid below market rate compared to other companies. Some TOCs have had huge increases in recent times. There’s better contracts within TfL. The Overground and TfL Rail drivers are on more money, for a shorter working week, with more annual leave and better staff travel benefits. Another TOC had a four year pay deal where by the end of it the wages went up 28%. I’ve driven both manual and ATO trains and I can safely say I encounter my fair share of stock defects, work through signal failure conditions, have to get involved with safety procedures to protect people on the track, deal with safety incidents and keep up awareness as much on the ATO side as I have on manual. ATO or not, if you’re in charge of something (in this case S7 stock) which is 380 feet long, nearly 14 feet tall, which weighs 210 tons and does speeds in excess of 50 mph, and can have many people on board it’s still a responsible position. Like most people, I hope this gets resolved soon, but we’ll have to wait and see. The atmosphere is very odd at the moment as a whole lot more changes, much more extreme are being discussed at the moment as well. Never rains as they say……
|
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 28, 2021 0:37:41 GMT
I think you would find doctors earn a lot more than £35k So on your basis then, we should also be targetting footballers who earn far more than doctors and nurses. Also politicians, the mayor, some TfL managerial positions, bankers etc as they are not putting their lives on the line and earn a lot more than £35k Forgive me if I am wrong, but do believe tube drivers are working class. This is nothing but pure hatred and jealousy that has infected the nation. Genuine question but do you believe a tube driver should earn 50k whilst someone in retail should earn less than 10k and also put their lives on the line Yes, it depends on what in retail they are doing and the hours. I am sure full time retail, there would be no one working this, as that would equate to around just over £4 per hour. The tube driver job is a very difficult job to gain and is one of the easiest jobs to get sacked from. There is a lot of training and regulations that far surpass the standard everyday driving. But would I say it is worth £50k, no. But then that is down to what the unions have achieved over the years. |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 28, 2021 0:39:10 GMT
Yes the average doctor salary in the UK is currently around £76k. Yes, if used on an mean average. You'll notice mode averages are far lower, junior doctors on average earn around 29K and there are far more of them. Obviously one consultant earning 100+K will skew the entire average. A doctor in specialist training earns around 40K which is still far less than a tube driver Would you be prepared to pay more taxes to fund all these pay rises for these junior doctors then. As there are far more of them than tube drivers. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Nov 28, 2021 0:40:23 GMT
tangytango.proboards.com/thread/9180/night-tube-delayed?page=6 Recent times are very interesting, as issues such as the fuel tanker driver shortage, supply chain driver shortage and other shortages in public transport have made many members of the public change their view. There is a growing acceptance that working people in working jobs, such as driving things, do need decent conditions and wages - the race to the bottom for employees created a lot of the problems we’ve had this year. An increasing number of people are now looking at the faults with the bosses and not the workers. Except this isn't being looked across all these jobs but rather focused on certain roles or public sector jobs. Private sector workers like myself are commonly even forgotten or dismissed out of hand as not essential unless a pandemic occurs and even then, are treated like filth regardless. I'd like decent working conditions and wages (heck, I'd like the so called staff room at work to actually be a functioning staff room rather than a room with a few chairs, a tv no one can watch and a few cheap appliances that don't work for long) but I can guarantee people in my sector will never get them. |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 28, 2021 0:40:50 GMT
I think you would find doctors earn a lot more than £35k So on your basis then, we should also be targetting footballers who earn far more than doctors and nurses. Also politicians, the mayor, some TfL managerial positions, bankers etc as they are not putting their lives on the line and earn a lot more than £35k Forgive me if I am wrong, but do believe tube drivers are working class. This is nothing but pure hatred and jealousy that has infected the nation. The issue is not the wage, but the work/salary ratio. Why is a driver that's in a cab doing nothing most of the day earning such a high amount of money? Footballers have to put in hours of training everyday, bankers work pretty much around the clock so I'd say their pay is more justified. If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? So what makes you think they are doing nothing most of the day. So why should a security person be paid £30k to stand around and most of the day do nothing but watching and waiting for something to happen. There is an endless list of examples I can come up with. Sounds like jealousy from my perspective. |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 28, 2021 0:42:20 GMT
If tube drivers on 50K are working class, what about the retail workers on 18K? I wish I was getting 18k, I'd be absolutely delighted Have you considered a change in career then? not being sarcastic. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Nov 28, 2021 0:42:29 GMT
Genuine question but do you believe a tube driver should earn 50k whilst someone in retail should earn less than 10k and also put their lives on the line Yes, it depends on what in retail they are doing and the hours. I am sure full time retail, there would be no one working this, as that would equate to around just over £4 per hour. The tube driver job is a very difficult job to gain and is one of the easiest jobs to get sacked from. There is a lot of training and regulations that far surpass the standard everyday driving. But would I say it is worth £50k, no. But then that is down to what the unions have achieved over the years. Thanks for answering  Getting full time jobs in retail is almost impossible and has been for a few years now - the best you'll get is part time and in some places, you wouldn't even get that hence the 10k figure I gave. |
|
