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Post by VMH2537 on Nov 22, 2021 13:26:24 GMT
The 21's routing towards Newington Green from Old Street shoud've been scaled back years ago. Always seen the 21 carrying air during peak hours on the routing than the 141 that is the full loaded route. Would question reroutings of the 143 and the 263 particualry risk breaking the direct North Finchley to Archway links aswell this could overwealm the 143 from the increase in popularity that is already on capacity.
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Post by greenboy on Nov 22, 2021 13:27:53 GMT
All seems quite reasonable to me, gives the 21 a bit more purpose,its wasted going to Newington Green, the 141 is adequate. Also solves the Highgate Village stand problem.
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 22, 2021 13:30:24 GMT
I reckon the 263 won't be tendered and will instead continue on the 271 contract which only started last year Or maybe even the 186 taking on the 271 contract. The existing buses would be a good fit for the 186 being 7-8 years old next year.
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 22, 2021 13:36:13 GMT
Ok this was unexpected. I must say I thought the 271 was safe owing to its unique route but apparently not …. Completely agree especially the 21 now being proposed to run to Holloway, Nags Head. Overall this is a similar repeat of the 88 & C2. However 271 is pretty much being replaced by 3 bus routes. 271 passengers would now need to interchange buses to continue journey. I guess they really do want to remove the stand now as they could have left the 263 and simply merged the 21 and 271 with a saving made between New North Road and Newington Green and the overlap between Moorgate and Old Street.
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Post by redexpress on Nov 22, 2021 13:47:45 GMT
Wow, so first route officially proposed for withdrawal is the 271. Is this a complete curve ball or has someone suggested it? Well... I suggested pretty much this exact set of changes (minus the 620 and N271) a while ago on this forum. No I do not work for TfL before anyone asks!
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Post by twobellstogo on Nov 22, 2021 14:44:40 GMT
Not local, and only tend to use the southern end of the 21, so will not pass comment on these changes, save for the somewhat sad news of the demise of the 271 number - famous for being one of the first routes to receive DMSs, along with the 220 and the long gone 95. When the 271 goes, it would be nice for someone to put an early DMS on a run of the 271 to wave it goodbye...
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 22, 2021 15:18:45 GMT
Who'd think that TfL would be reintroducing north to south routes again via the City. The 21 as mentioned is quiet up to Newington Green, so sending it to Holloway gives new connections for those who don't or can't afford to use rail services. It does seem long and I suspect a PVR increase is on the cards, but I won't be surprised if there's loads of turns during the peaks.
With the continuing issues regarding TfL's budgetery issues, it's no surprise that we'll see more routes like this, such as the 88 going into North London and the 1 and 21 consultations.
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Post by Nathan on Nov 22, 2021 15:20:53 GMT
Hmm...not sure about the 21 extension. Lewisham to Holloway? Seems too long to me. Given the 1/168 proposals this might be a trend we'll start seeing more of. And as an enthusiast and former route 21-user, this is something I look forward to seeing in real life and makes me wonder if the route would be partially operated north of the river (at NP). Who knows!?
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Post by danorak on Nov 22, 2021 15:57:22 GMT
Didn't see this one coming! I suppose TfL will also bank the saving of not having to sort out the 271 stand. It's not an area I'm familar with, but the main aspect that gave me pause for thought was the 143: this will take it away from Whittington Hospital. Will that be controversial? I suppose the flipside is that 263 passengers will gain a direct link.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 22, 2021 16:05:08 GMT
I'm not local to the area so I'm not sure, but would extending the 21 to Holloway subject it to any more bad traffic? The Higbury Corner area has very bad traffic, worst since the roundabout has been eradicated in the name of cyclists. The Holloway Rd is bad for traffic on Arsenal match days.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 22, 2021 16:15:53 GMT
I did not expect the 21 would have been extended, but good news imo for north south routes after so many cuts over the years. With the 78 to be cut back to Liverpool St, I guess this also is a little good news over long routes. The sad part is another long established route number to disappear being 271.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 22, 2021 16:50:51 GMT
Well...well...well as the person who comments the most on the 143/263 across the forum I guess I'll be slipping my thoughts right into this...
I will make a seperate comment on the 168 proposals but these proposals to me are not something I didn't expect but these truly are bad proposals.
The 21: No surprises that it was probably going to be removed from Newington Green. As I say it would be better if TFL dropped standardisation during this period & had peak time extensions. This somewhat might've been useful rather than running empty buses on weekdays off peak up to Newington Green. As for Holloway I will ditto what others have said and that is the 21 would become too long & the Canonbury estates lose their direct link to Whittington and I know some schools have a catchment area towards the Canonbury area. However at least the Holloway Road/H&I to Highgate link is retained by the 263 as if that were to be lost I reckon you'd see a drop in numbers.
Route 143/263: This is probably the worst part of the proposal but I can't in all honesty say it's the worst thing I've ever seen. The 143 was on permanent diversion via the Archway Road for a while so I don't imagine it's the most unknown thing? However, there are many cons with this proposal. One of them for me is the loss of a daytime link as well as a PM peak link northbound between Highgate Village & East End Road. That link is a popular one and it's one of the reasons why the 143 gets so packed. However I can see TFLs logic behind this, the 143 is absolutely rammed between Archway & East Finchley Station however the bus then re-loads outside the station with commuters and schoolchildren and regularly the bus is so packed unless someone presses the bell passengers are left stranded at Trinity Avenue/Abbotts Gardens bus stops westbound and Ossulton Way/Trinity Avenue/Stanley Road stops eastbound. This route seriously needs a decking and as I've said before it needs either a x10 frequency or deckers. To me I think it's ridiculous how TFL run the route at an x12 frequency, completely inappropriate for the number of workers/schoolchildren who rely on the service on East End Road even during COVID and I'd much rather TFL tackled resident concerns on Squires Lane and perhaps look at introducing more capacity to the route than immediately going and switching it up. I also worry about the loss of a direct link leaving Archway Station, perhaps if the 143 stood with the 41 it would make it slightly better in terms of interchange to and from the station as well as a slightly improved link to and from Whittington which is probably the biggest political worry out of everything. I also don't know where the demand is coming from for an Archway Road to Finchley Central link, the tube exists for that already! I can see some merit in introducing a Highgate Vill to North Finchley on the flipside but then the downside is perhaps the 263 taking a longer, diverted route through Highgate Village increasing journey times for the large crowds of people that do use the service to & from East Finchley southwards, and is normally evident when you see the number of people on board when it pulls into the East Finchley stop. I would say a better suggestion for the 263 would be diverting it to Dalston because the H&I to Barn section of the route is completely dead all day, I understand there were capacity issues on the 4/19 leaving H&I coming up to the 263 extens
Route 271: As I've said it would be far better if the 21 was cutback to Old Street/Moorgate Finsbury Square rather than the 271 being withdrawn however the 21 would then lose its direct link to Moorfields. You could then retain the 21s current frequency as has been mentioned the 21 is busier on the southern end than the northern end.
Route 620: No thoughts other than to soften the blow it should run bi-directional during AM and PM school kickout time.
Route N271: Do not understand a need to extend it to North Finchley. Again throwing money unnecessarily at things that likely have very simple solutions. Had there have been no resident objections along Squires Lane I'd go as far as to encourage the N20 to be diverted via Squires Lane, then down the 382 to Lido and then via the 263. You'd get closer to a lot of estates that at night are dodgy (so to speak) and would be easy for passengers to alight from. The N13 would exist for journeys between FC & NF and there's very little patronage between Manor View & FC anyway at night. The 134 links between North Finchley & Archway/Highgate at night anyway.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 22, 2021 16:51:37 GMT
The 21's routing towards Newington Green from Old Street shoud've been scaled back years ago. Always seen the 21 carrying air during peak hours on the routing than the 141 that is the full loaded route. Would question reroutings of the 143 and the 263 particualry risk breaking the direct North Finchley to Archway links aswell this could overwealm the 143 from the increase in popularity that is already on capacity. The 141 I'd agree is the busier route. With a drop in frequency on the 29 the 141 has room to increase and also the 329 was dropped a few years back.
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Post by redexpress on Nov 22, 2021 19:44:15 GMT
Didn't see this one coming! I suppose TfL will also bank the saving of not having to sort out the 271 stand. It's not an area I'm familar with, but the main aspect that gave me pause for thought was the 143: this will take it away from Whittington Hospital. Will that be controversial? I suppose the flipside is that 263 passengers will gain a direct link. As I understand it the main reason for swapping the 143 and 263 routeings is to maintain the direct link to the Whittington from points south of Archway. This is presumably considered more important than maintaining the link from points west of East Finchley. I know that was the main objection to curtailing the 271 at Archway when that was suggested in the past.
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Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Nov 22, 2021 20:18:36 GMT
I wonder what will happen contractually? Could the 271 contract transfer to the 16 and the 16 contract not renewed (obviously LT's still operating on amended contract)?
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